Would you fold in this spot?

Lazare

Fitz scalps last Friday. After the break, so freezeout time, I'm dealt two black Aces in the BB. Folded all around to the SB who completes, blinds 500/1000.
No raise from me, flop comes 4 4 10. SB who is tight but solid, leads for 1500.
I tank for about 15 seconds, then ask him how much he has, I have him slightly covered (by about 1 BB), was gonna push, then decide to just call (comments). 5 comes off on the turn and SB pushes and after a slight dwell I muck the Aces.
Turned out to be a bad fold, but is it more often a good one?

NickyOD

Nothing wrong with the call on the flop but he's never pushing with trips ont he turn. I'd be more worried if he checked. Would help if you told us stack sizes also.

5starpool

I would find it very hard to fold here without some specific knowledge about your opponent. I know that at times people tend to bet out from here with a 4, but not usually 2 handed, and most people tend to check the flop with a 4 here.

I would proclaim discomfort and annoyance while making the call if this hand got to the turn but call I would, as you will be facing a T often enough to justify this call.

Lazare

We each had around 12k Nicky, which makes it an even worse fold.

ArmaniJeanss

Strikes me as a poor fold, SB has you on random garbage and will be slowplaying any monster hand 4x, TT, 55, etc in desperate hope that you catch up. So he's not pushing with any of them.
And you're not behind anything else.

Scouser in Dub

for him to have made trips on the turn he's hold 55 which I think would be unlikely to lead for 1.5 BB's on the flop

stack sizes would help as well as knowing if there was a flush available

Tomotronic

Not raising aces can be dangerous. We have such a situation here.

Most people however who flop trips OOP check the flop and bet the turn aggressively. I'd rather put him on top pair, overpair or two broadway pocket cards here. You played your hand weakly preflop and on the flop so he might assume that he's ahead. A raise on the flop would have made him fold if he had nothing, probably a call if he had a pair or better.
As played I'd call his all-in because in most cases you're ahead here

Lazare

I wasn't worried about the 5, I figured he could have completed with anything, he actually held 5 3. It was a bad fold, but I just could'nt be sure enough he didn't hold a 4. No flush available btw.

ollyk1

Raising with aces is generally correct but I don't think its such a bad play to check preflop here.

I think you acted weak and got a guy to bet a missed flop with 5 high. That's good. I also like the call on the flop.

But you need to follow it up with a call on the turn. Your decision is made on the flop once you call the flop you are calling off all your chips on the turn . Or else you think he has a 4 and is betting out and you fold.

If he's pushing with a 4 here on the turn he either has an amazing read on you which is almost unbelieveable as you have shown no strength and there is only a wierd straight draw on the board or you are ahead. I'd have to call 100% of the time as played.

William Money

Hi Lazare I was siting directly to your left when this happened.

You disguised this hand too well obviously.

I thought he had a ten here.

Was this the young guy in the white shirt. If it was he went on to
win ( 2 way deal).

Take heart though you are capable of folding a big hand.

5starpool

William Money wrote:

Take heart though you are capable of folding a big hand.

unlike you, eh

Lazare

William Money wrote:

Hi Lazare I was siting directly to your left when this happened.

You disguised this hand too well obviously.

I thought he had a ten here.

Was this the young guy in the white shirt. If it was he went on to
win ( 2 way deal).

Take heart though you are capable of folding a big hand.

Cheers WM, appreciate that,but to be honest I think I played it poorly, calling the flop, i should have been prepared to follow through on the turn, especially with a 12 x BB stack. He went on to win? Good solid player, nice youngfella too.

Gholimoli

Why were you just calling the flop bet?
If it was to induce him to bluff/bet then you can’t fold when he does.
Getting people to bluff at pots and putting money in with a lesser hand and in general inducing bluffs is a very good skill to have. However it’s a big mistake to fold when you manage to pull it off.
Im not being result oriented and saying this because you ended up having the better hand. im saying this because of the line you picked to play the hand. Your line has induced him to bluff and you have to call when he does other wise it’s a very bad line.

Hectorjelly

Dont put the results in the OP, you will get much better feedback.

I like your play of the hand, now call the turn.

Lazare

Gholimoli wrote:

Why were you just calling the flop bet?
If it was to induce him to bluff/bet then you can’t fold when he does.
Getting people to bluff at pots and putting money in with a lesser hand and in general inducing bluffs is a very good skill to have. However it’s a big mistake to fold when you manage to pull it off.
Im not being result oriented and saying this because you ended up having the better hand. im saying this because of the line you picked to play the hand. Your line has induced him to bluff and you have to call when he does other wise it’s a very bad line.

My thinking on 4th st was,I felt I had shown some strenght with my call on the flop (there were no draws), I then felt he didn't fear a call, and because he just completed in the SB, I'd no idea where I stood. He played it well. I thought I had been playing quite well up to that, and didn't want to commit the rest of my stack in a spot where I was just guessing.

5starpool

I know it sounds like a bit of a soundbyte, but in a situation like this you should not have to resort to what you think is mere guessing. If you decided to put your opponent on 4x then fair enough (even though I disagree most of the time). If you figure you are ahead of his likely hands based on the way he played it then call, otherwise fold.

I think he decided that you didn't have a 4 hence he pushed, but in my experience when betting out from EP with Tx on this 44T board, a flat caller will call for 3 reasons only.

1. You have a 4. He is taking a chance by pushing as he will clearly get called here.
2. You have a T (he can't put you on AA here). You will find it hard to call a push without a premium kicker which you would likely have raised preflop with (AT,KT,QT) in a battle of the blinds.
3. You have nothing and are calling to try and push him off it on the turn. His pushing negates that.

As far as he is concerned his T is good often enough here to justify his play as he thinks you can only have a 4 that you will call with.

Scouser in Dub

am not sure how much strength is indicated with a call of 1.5x BB

Gholimoli

Lazare wrote:

My thinking on 4th st was,I felt I had shown some strenght with my call on the flop (there were no draws), I then felt he didn't fear a call, and because he just completed in the SB, I'd no idea where I stood. He played it well. I thought I had been playing quite well up to that, and didn't want to commit the rest of my stack in a spot where I was just guessing.

Villain almost never puts you on AA here and his play is based on that.
You have never shown your hand to be as strong as AA and the passive line you have chosen induces bluffs (his thinking would be like: he cant possibly have a strong hand here as he has not raised pre-flop and has only called my bet on the flop so I can get him off what ever he has with a big raise). Your line has made him make the mistake of thinking you don’t possibly have a calling hand here. That’s why you have to call. Some times you may be beat but often enough you’re ahead here.

ollyk1

Is it wrong that I'd be tempted to call in Lazare's position if I had 99 and I thought the guy was a good player.....


Something to ponder on the badness of my play.....

Lazare

Gholimoli wrote:

Villain almost never puts you on AA here and his play is based on that.
You have never shown your hand to be as strong as AA and the passive line you have chosen induces bluffs (his thinking would be like: he cant possibly have a strong hand here as he has not raised pre-flop and has only called my bet on the flop so I can get him off what ever he has with a big raise). Your line has made him make the mistake of thinking you don’t possibly have a calling hand here. That’s why you have to call. Some times you may be beat but often enough you’re ahead here.

Yeah, the only thing that had me unsure was the fact he was the SB, holding anything. If I was HU against one pre-flop raiser, I would've been much more confident. It's ABC stuff in that situation.

Lazare

Scouser in Dub wrote:

am not sure how much strength is indicated with a call of 1.5x BB

We'd been on the same table all night, he knows I'm not a calling station, no matter how cheap. A raise would've been the better line.

Atlas_IRL

i'd call most of the time on boards like this, when there are nice blinds to rob people will throw in probe/continuation bets when the board pairs cause it mostly misses their opponent.

If you were in his situation would you go all in on the turn with 4x/10x, most people would try extract the max money out of the opponent if they thought they were ahead by average size bets.

ollyk1

Lazare wrote:

Yeah, the only thing that had me unsure was the fact he was the SB, holding anything. If I was HU against one pre-flop raiser, I would've been much more confident. It's ABC stuff in that situation.

Think it through from his point of view if he has a 4.

He complete's in the SB with J4o say, the flop comes a hail Mary 44T. He bets small to keep you interested. The BB flat calls. The turn comes an undangerous 5 completing the rainbow so he now decides he likes this Lazare guy so he'll let you get away from your weak T by pushing all-in. How bad is that??? How likely is that????

I'd be very likely to call down here with a reasonable ten much less an overpair (except against bad players or guys who have seen me make big calls before and have adapted their play accordingly).

Lazare

ollyk1 wrote:

The turn comes an undangerous 5 completing the rainbow so he now decides he likes this Lazare guy so he'll let you get away from your weak T by pushing all-in. How bad is that??? How likely is that????.

LOL. You're dead right Ollie, I never looked at it that way. I knew my play was bad, I talked to a couple of mates on Saturday about it and they all agreed. I just wanted you guys to show me exactly what I should've been thinking. Cheers All.

Scouser in Dub

I can see the reason for a flat call on the flop though would probably have reraised. It induced the bluff, as may possibly you posing the question of what he had in front of him then just calling.

When he is all in after a non dangerous looking turn card I would think him being at it having bought the induced bluff

William Money

In response to Starpool (damn copy and paste didnt work)

I am playing like the Chief at the moment so thers ho need to fold!!

He was sitting near me the other day I think there may have been some weird osmotic transfer but I found myself raising with J2 betting a dangerous flop getting called hitting the 2 going all in (pot size bet) him folding me pulling
my salmon coloured jumper over my face in celebration!!!

Anyhow back to my normal game on THursday.

GL

Lazare

William Money wrote:

In response to Starpool (damn copy and paste didnt work)

I am playing like the Chief at the moment so thers ho need to fold!!

He was sitting near me the other day I think there may have been some weird osmotic transfer but I found myself raising with J2 betting a dangerous flop getting called hitting the 2 going all in (pot size bet) him folding me pulling
my salmon coloured jumper over my face in celebration!!!

Anyhow back to my normal game on THursday.

GL

LOL, "We're gonna need a bigger boat"

(your line -sorry)

5starpool

William Money wrote:

In response to Starpool (damn copy and paste didnt work)

I am playing like the Chief at the moment so thers ho need to fold!!

He was sitting near me the other day I think there may have been some weird osmotic transfer but I found myself raising with J2 betting a dangerous flop getting called hitting the 2 going all in (pot size bet) him folding me pulling
my salmon coloured jumper over my face in celebration!!!

Anyhow back to my normal game on THursday.

GL

I'll explain how to include previous posts to you on Thursday. Resist the chief in the meantime.

aodea

quick query is there any argument for reraising when the player leads out and bets the flop. while he flat called is there not an argument to find out where you are by applying some pressure on the sb player?

ollyk1

aodea wrote:

quick query is there any argument for reraising when the player leads out and bets the flop. while he flat called is there not an argument to find out where you are by applying some pressure on the sb player?

I can think of an argument against it.

You get called when you are behind and you don't when you are ahead so its a long term losing bet. Really betting for info here is because you are scared to play for all your chips on the turn. Thats never a good enoguh reason.

Don't play scared in poker it costs money.

Hitman Actual

aodea wrote:

quick query is there any argument for reraising when the player leads out and bets the flop. while he flat called is there not an argument to find out where you are by applying some pressure on the sb player?

No, I dont like a raise at all on the flop, especially with stack/blind sizes as they are. You know where you are without raising: ahead by a mile most of the time.

aodea

ollyk1 wrote:

I can think of an argument against it.

You get called when you are behind and you don't when you are ahead so its a long term losing bet. Really betting for info here is because you are scared to play for all your chips on the turn. Thats never a good enoguh reason.

Don't play scared in poker it costs money.

thats a fair point but if you flat call the flop surley that means you have to commit your stack on the turn? so why does the player fold?

5starpool

aodea wrote:

thats a fair point but if you flat call the flop surley that means you have to commit your stack on the turn? so why does the player fold?

You don't want him to fold. You want his chips as 95/100 you are ahead here. If you raise the turn you almost always get him to fold and only ever get called the 5% of the time he has a 4. If you flat call and allow him to make another mistake on the turn then you can get more of his chips that way. If he has a 4 then you are going to be resigned to losing your chips on this board anyhow, so use the scenario that allows you to get chips when you are ahead more often than the scenario when it only goes in when he has the 4.