Towing with a 1.9TDi Passat Estate

fits

I'm on another messageboard based in the UK, and its members think I'd be mad to tow a horsebox with one horse in it with the TDi Passat Estate (its a 1994).

Where do I stand legally on this? Is it fit for the job?

peasant

Don't have the exact data (your handbook should) but I reckon that your max weight for a braked trailer would be somewhere between 1200 - 1500 kg.

Depending on the weight of horse and trailer you might be alright ...or not.


The other proble of course is the max weigth on the towbar, which should be around 75 kg and which a horse box would sure exceed.

But seenashow everybody else can tow two bulls to market with a clapped out Fiesta or Jetta with their front wheels barely touching the ground ...shure you'll be grand

fits

peasant wrote:

But seenashow everybody else can tow two bulls to market with a clapped out Fiesta or Jetta with their front wheels barely touching the ground ...shure you'll be grand

We used to be guilty of that with the jetta back in the day... great car:) wouldnt do it now..

I have a feeling though that it wouldnt be strictly legal to tow a horsebox with the passat, because the maximum payload of the trailer would be greater than the kerb weight of the car.
Would my insurance still cover me in this instance?

BrianD3

Towing is one of my favourite topics

If you want to do things right you should check the max braked and unbraked towing weight for your car. If you have the car's handbook it should be in there, it might also be on the VIN plate or you could find it in an old car magazine like What Car?

Your horsebox is presumably braked and if you know the actual weight of the horsebox including 1 horse then it'll be pretty clear whether you're OK or not.

Also pay attention to the max design gross vehcile weight (which is different to the actual weight) of the car and horsebox as this is important from a licence point of view. Your Passat probably has a max d.g.v.w of around 1700 kg. Horsebox probably 2000 kg at least. In that case you'll need an EB driving licence, a normal B licence won't be sufficient. The limit for B licences is 3500 kg or 4250 kg if the trailer d.g.v.w is <750kg.

Of course most drivers don't pay any attention to this type of thing. Insurance companies and the Gardai also don't seem to have a clue. So if you do tow with your Passat and it is technically illegal you'll get away with it.

fits

Yeah I definitely need the EB... which means I've to fork out for a theory test first:mad:

The trailers unladen weight is 980kg. Horse is about 500kg.

BrianD3

If you can't find the towing weights specified by VW I should be able to get them for you from a car magazine when I get home.

fits

I cant find them for the 1994, but these are the 1997 versions..

Unbraked Towing Weight: 650 Kg
Braked Towing Weight: 1600 Kg

However car weighs 1415kg.. so in theory, shouldnt really be towing more than that..

Horsebox is braked.

People on other board think I'm akin to a murderer for even considering this... well not quite, but close...

unkel

Max braked weight for your Passat is 1200KG, so technically you're not allowed to tow the trailor. You're well within the 3500KG limit for the combination and I doubt very much the Gardai would know or want to find out about your car's towing maximum

Insurers could get anal though if the claim is bad enough. So if you crash, kick the horse out into a field without any witnesses noticing and you should be grand

unkel

fits wrote:

I cant find them for the 1994, but these are the 1997 versions..

Unbraked Towing Weight: 650 Kg
Braked Towing Weight: 1600 Kg

That's not only a completely different (newer) model, but also the 110BHP TDI and not the 90BHP TDI you have. Even then, I get a figure of 1500KG for that

The '94 TDI is deffo 1200KG

BrianD3

fits wrote:

I cant find them for the 1994, but these are the 1997 versions..

Unbraked Towing Weight: 650 Kg
Braked Towing Weight: 1600 Kg

However car weighs 1415kg.. so in theory, shouldnt really be towing more than that..

Horsebox is braked.

People on other board think I'm akin to a murderer for even considering this... well not quite, but close...

If VW say you can tow 1600 kg braked then I'd imagine that should be OK. Why would VW put out dangerous/illegal information in writing. They'd be leaving themselves wide open to being sued.

However IIRC there is a general rule in Irish legislation for towing a trailer with a car. I belive it says that the d.g.v.w of the trailer must not exceed the kerb weight of the car. If correct, this would put a severe restriction on people wishing to tow.

HashSlinging

Hey horsebox! why the long face?

fits

unkel wrote:

That's not only a completely different (newer) model, but also the 110BHP TDI and not the 90BHP TDI you have. Even then, I get a figure of 1500KG for that

The '94 TDI is deffo 1200KG

to clarify.. do you mean it weighs 1200kg and has a 1500kg towing capacity?

fits

BrianD3 wrote:

However IIRC there is a general rule in Irish legislation for towing a trailer with a car. I belive it says that the d.g.v.w of the trailer must not exceed the kerb weight of the car. If correct, this would put a severe restriction on people wishing to tow.

the dgvw of the box is 2300kg.. in which case I'd be well off the mark

BrianD3

unkel wrote:

Max braked weight for your Passat is 1200KG, so technically you're not allowed to tow the trailor. You're well within the 3500KG limit for the combination and I doubt very much the Gardai would know or want to find out about your car's towing maximum

Thing is though if his horsebox is plated for a d.g.v.w of ~2000 kg (which is likely) then it doesn't matter if it only weighs 1200 kg when he tows it as it is the former figure that counts from a licence point of view. His Passat probably has a kerb weight of around 1200-1300 kg and a d.g.v.w of maybe 1700 kg. Add 1700 to 2000 and he's over the limit for his B licence. Even if he is driving the car and horsebox lightly laden and nowhere near their maximum laden weight.

However if he doesn't exceed 1200 kg at least he'll be OK from a towing weights point of view. Maybe

the dgvw of the box is 2300kg.. in which case I'd be well off the mark

That rule might just be for B licences though. I had a quick look for more info on the government websites but didn't find anything. There is definitley some rule like this though.

fits

he is a she:)

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

Add 1700 to 2000 and he's over the limit for his B licence. Even if he is driving the car and horsebox lightly laden and nowhere near their maximum laden weight

Ah bummer, you're right there, they are gross weights. Stupid rule innit?

fits wrote:

to clarify.. do you mean it weighs 1200kg and has a 1500kg towing capacity?

No, 1200KG is the max towing capacity. Your car's weight is 1246KG and max laden weight is 1790KG

fits wrote:

he is a she:)

LOL, glad I didn't make any assumptions here. Although towing a horse and coming up with figures for a completely different Passat sure were hints

fits

unkel wrote:

coming up with figures for a completely different Passat sure were hints

I actually did know it was a different model and stated it in my post... sigh... Try finding specs for the '94 estate model online, cos I couldnt and I dont have the manual yet...

BrianD3

unkel wrote:

Although towing a horse and coming up with figures for a completely different Passat sure were hints

The real fun starts when the horsebox has to be reversed :eek:;)

unkel

fits wrote:

I actually did know it was a different model and stated it in my post... sigh...

You picked up figures for the Passat with a much stronger engine. Your engine is available in the newer model too. But sorry you did say it was a different model

So are you going to tow it?

BrianD3 wrote:

The real fun starts when the horsebox has to be reversed :eek:;)

Indeed. Have a lot more respect for people that tow, male or female, since I did it a few times myself. Reversing is a bitch

fits

BrianD3 wrote:

The real fun starts when the horsebox has to be reversed :eek:;)

i'm pretty sure i'll manage:)

I was actually was looking for specs for the 1994 for ages, couldnt find them, so when someone put those specs up on another thread I copied and pasted em over...

I will tow with it for the time being anyway, long term plan is to get a small truck... much more comfortable for the neddies:) and it means I wont have to run a gas-guzzling, crap-to-drive jeep.

BrianD3

Well it's good that at least someone in this country is interested in towing weights and licences (and a female that can reverse a horsebox is a rare find too :))

I think this clip sums up the usual approach to towing in this country
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOegMivKXUA&search=pikey

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

I think this clip sums up the usual approach to towing in this country
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOegMivKXUA&search=pikey

OMFG, class :eek:

Best laugh I had in a while

fits

that video is hilarious... was it shot here?

I've yet to try reversing a horsebox... but dont presume that I cant just because I'm female! I intend practising it anyway... and I'm pretty good at most things ladies supposedly 'cant' do.:rolleyes:

BrianD3

The thing about horseboxes is they have a fairly long distance between the wheels and the hitch. This actually makes them easier to reverse than a smaller trailer. People are always surprised by this. Small trailers are very sensitive to the slightest steering movement, making them easy to jacknife and difficult to reverse in a straight line.

Tis a funny video alright

unkel

fits wrote:

I've yet to try reversing a horsebox...

Have you reversed any trailer? Anyway lots of practice will sort ya out

Also has your car P/S? I presume it has. Makes a huge difference at speed (>60km/h) on a combination with a relatively heavy trailer (about same weight as car)

fits

unkel wrote:

Have you reversed any trailer? Anyway lots of practice will sort ya out

Yes, a little light thing.. once.. Its not so easy. I understand the theory of it, putting it into practice will be another thing though. I've a good teacher in my oh, and I'm going to do this EB test.

unkel wrote:

Also has your car P/S? I presume it has. Makes a huge difference at speed (>60km/h) on a combination with a relatively heavy trailer (about same weight as car)

yes it does.

maidhc

BrianD3 wrote:

The thing about horseboxes is they have a fairly long distance between the wheels and the hitch. This actually makes them easier to reverse than a smaller trailer.

That is true. I find it far easier to reverse a 30ft trailer on a tractor than the little bloody car trailer that will jack-knife in half a second.

PS is a major help for revesring, but when a horse is in be careful, there will be no weight at all in the steering.

fits

maidhc wrote:

PS is a major help for revesring, but when a horse is in be careful, there will be no weight at all in the steering.

thanks for that..any other towing tips?

maidhc

fits wrote:

thanks for that..any other towing tips?

a) Be aware of the high centre of gravity a laden horsebox has. You can easily flip one going around a roundabout. I have seen it done!
b) When turning in gates don't forget the trailer doesn't follow the wheels of the car but cuts in sharper... so make a bigger arc when swinging in.
c) Steep hills are scary, as the video illustrates! I once landed inside in a ditch when pulling a trailer with a Corolla. It lost traction going up a hill on wet leaves and slid into the ditch. No harm done, but I had to find someone to tow me up.
d) Watch the temperature guage in the car if pulling hard.
e) Use the engine to brake as much as possible when decending hills. It is much easier to stay in control and your brakes wont be welded together by the time you get to the bottom.


Golden rule:
Don't descend a hill faster than the vehicle can climb it

BrianD3

I'd add to that some tips for reversing which may be stating the obvious
a) Before you even start reversing you inital positioning has a big influence on how easy or difficult the reverse will be
b) Once you've started reversing there is no shame in stopping and moving forward a bit to get yourself into a more favourable position
c) Three point turns like you would do in your car driving test are usually v. difficult with a trailer. If you want to turn around between two kerbs/walls and there isn't enough room to do a U-turn then you can try to do a 3 pont turn but you probably won't succeed. Try to avoid getting yourself into these situations. If you do get into one of these situations go forward till you find more space (eg a driveway you can reverse into) to allow you to turn