Is there any way to lose less in these situations?

NickyOD

I find on party when I get called OOP I set myself up for getting min raised on the turn a lot. Am I being outplayed or am I making a good fold against a better hand? Play this hand better for me.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($200)
CO ($261.08)
Button ($257.80)
Hero ($278.08)
BB ($136.90)
UTG ($146.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J. Hero posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, CO raises to $8, Button calls $8, Hero (poster) calls $7, 1 fold, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($34) 9, 4, 3(4 players)
Hero bets $24, UTG calls $24, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: ($82) Q(2 players)
Hero bets $40, UTG raises to $80, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $202

valor

Well, for a start 3 bet preflop..35-40 to go

NickyOD

valor wrote:

Well, for a start 3 bet preflop..35-40 to go

OOP in cash games that's a quick way to lose a lot with Jacks.

Imposter

In general I think you are being played here. Who calls a preflop raise and a flop bet with the preflop raiser still to act behind them with Q high? The only hands i can put the raiser on is a set. This is a situation where you need more info on your opponent.

I think if you keep folding here you'll lose a lot to better players.

valor

NickyOD wrote:

OOP in cash games that's a quick way to lose a lot with Jacks.

No its not - you have the 4th best starting hand playing 6 handed facing a CO open and a Button call - these guys can have any 2 cards. i certainly dont want to take a flop potentially 4 handed, thats giving up a huge edge. 3 bet here is totally standard

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

The only hands i can put the raiser on is a set.

Imposter wrote:

I think if you keep folding here you'll lose a lot to better players.

So what you're saying is to do what?

FastMachine

Looks like a good fold. I don't like the lead out on the flop with such a vunerable hand in a 4 raised way pot oop. I'd check call this flop and probably lead the turn for 3/4 of the pot if I was the only caller. The way this hand developed with UTG calling too and a Q turn, I'd probably just check fold the turn. 4-way, I'd really be looking for a set with JJ before I'd consider putting alot of money in the pot.

FastMachine

valor wrote:

No its not - you have the 4th best starting hand playing 6 handed facing a CO open and a Button call - these guys can have any 2 cards. i certainly dont want to take a flop potentially 4 handed, thats giving up a huge edge. 3 bet here is totally standard

JJ unimproved is not much of a hand oop, I don't really see the point in reraising in this situation (4-way oop raised pot) and best case scenario taking a smallish pot preflop or else on the flop.
It's better to go for the set and which is usually the only way JJ is good if you play for a big pot multiway. Sets are either the most profitable or second most profitable hand in everybody's stats and 4-way it's even more likely that someone will have something to pay you.

valor

Playing JJ like that is turning it into 22 which is giving up far too much EV

Lafortezza

JJ OOP against 3 other players isn't much of a hand, JJ headsup is far better.
In this particular hand I don't know what I'd do. Probably fold, push a small amount of the time.

NickyOD

Simlar hand.

Very ****ing irritating.

***** Hand History for Game 4761046584 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 19, 09:37:08 ET 2006
Table Table 107439 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 5: qwerty9453 ( $291.21 )
Seat 2: NickyOD ( $196 )
Seat 6: Beau1sm ( $212.05 )
Seat 1: YuckF0u ( $128.01 )
Seat 4: zuezuea2000 ( $207.50 )
Seat 3: twblowgov ( $33.14 )
NickyOD posts small blind [$1].
twblowgov posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NickyOD [ Tc Th ]
>You have options at Table 109609 (No DP) Table!.
zuezuea2000 raises [$6].
qwerty9453 folds.
Beau1sm calls [$6].
YuckF0u folds.
NickyOD calls [$5].
twblowgov folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 3h, 5s ]
NickyOD bets [$14].
zuezuea2000 calls [$14].
Beau1sm folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
>You have options at Table 109749 (No DP) Table!.
NickyOD bets [$30].
zuezuea2000 raises [$60].
>You have options at Table 109609 (No DP) Table!.
NickyOD folds.
>You have options at Table 107474 Table!.
zuezuea2000 does not show cards.
zuezuea2000 wins $135

Gholimoli

Nicky ,
I like the flat call preflop and I think a raise is deffo out of order here out of position.
I liked the lead on the flop because your putting opponents from UTG up to the button in real pressure with leading. Even though they have position on you but they don’t have position on people yet to act behind them which makes them 1) forget about making a move 2) let go of over cards draws etc which good for you in away.
This also gives you a sense of what your up against as a call here from UTG on a drawless board generally means a strong hand.
However I don’t like the lead on the turn. You have a vulnerable hand now that has some show down value but you want to get there as cheap as possible.
Check/call the turn and check/call/fold the river depending on the bet size.

Ste05

I wouldn't lead the flop and the turn, I'd lead one or the other, but not both...

Hectorjelly

Reraising and calling preflop are both fine, and doing only one ever is a big mistake. Fastmachine of course sets are profitable, but thats not a reason as to why calling is better. If it was a choice between reraising and flopping a set then your argument would make sense.

FastMachine

I didn't mean never to reraise with JJ, I meant that in this particular situation - oop in a 4 way pot in a 1/2 game it's not a great play.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

I didn't mean never to reraise with JJ, I meant that in this particular situation - oop in a 4 way pot in a 1/2 game it's not a great play.

thats a good time to reraise preflop

Imposter

NickyOD wrote:

So what you're saying is to do what?

What I meant was the only hands that have you beaten are sets (and now that I think about it the Qx flush draw). With no info on the players at all i'd be folding about 3/4's of the time but you have to reraise some of them. Calling isn't an option imo.

With a little info on the player, as in if he seems to use pressure bets alot and hasn't been tested i'd switch that to be raising him all-in 2/3 - 3/4's of the time. Him only having 36 or so left makes it tricky as it means he probably has to call with most hands other than if he has complete rubbish.

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

What I meant was the only hands that have you beaten are sets (and now that I think about it the Qx flush draw). With no info on the players at all i'd be folding about 3/4's of the time but you have to reraise some of them. Calling isn't an option imo.

With a little info on the player, as in if he seems to use pressure bets alot and hasn't been tested i'd switch that to be raising him all-in 2/3 - 3/4's of the time. Him only having 36 or so left makes it tricky as it means he probably has to call with most hands other than if he has complete rubbish.

Calling and reraising all in are both very bad. Against an unknown at these stakes I just can't stay in the hand. It will be a set too often. The best way to keep on top of this is to keep very detailed notes. I was mostly just looking for a better way to play the hand.

***** Hand History for Game 4761071073 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 19, 09:46:28 ET 2006
Table Table 107439 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 5: qwerty9453 ( $273.21 )
Seat 2: NickyOD ( $196 )
Seat 6: Beau1sm ( $198.40 )
Seat 4: zuezuea2000 ( $390.40 )
Seat 3: twblowgov ( $41.89 )
Seat 1: arghie ( $189 )
qwerty9453 posts small blind [$1].
Beau1sm posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NickyOD [ Kd Ks ]
arghie folds.
NickyOD raises [$8].
twblowgov folds.
zuezuea2000 folds.
qwerty9453 folds.
Beau1sm calls [$6].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 9s, 3d ]
Beau1sm checks.
NickyOD bets [$12].
>You have options at Table 109609 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 109749 (No DP) Table!.
Beau1sm calls [$12].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
Beau1sm checks.
NickyOD bets [$28].
Beau1sm raises [$56].
NickyOD calls [$28].
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
Beau1sm checks.
NickyOD checks.
Beau1sm shows [ 9c, 9h ] three of a kind, nines.
NickyOD doesn't show [ Kd, Ks ] a pair of kings.
Beau1sm wins $150 from the main pot with three of a kind, nines.
>You have options at Table 107474 Table!.

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

thats a good time to reraise preflop

I prefer taking big pots with sets rather than hoping to win relatively small ones with vunerable hands.

Marq

FastMachine wrote:

I prefer taking big pots with sets rather than hoping to win relatively small ones with vunerable hands.

How unorthodox.

cardshark202

If the original raiser is an idiot who like to get it all in preflop with AT or worse then calling is suicidal.

NickyOD

cardshark202 wrote:

If the original raiser is an idiot who like to get it all in preflop with AT or worse then calling is suicidal.

Why would I decide to play my hand a certain way based on that assumption when it will happen about 0.0001% of the time.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

I prefer taking big pots with sets rather than hoping to win relatively small ones with vunerable hands.

You're making the same mistake again.

cardshark202

NickyOD wrote:

Why would I decide to play my hand a certain way based on that assumption when it will happen about 0.0001% of the time.

You should try playing this game called 'no-limit texas holdem' (just called 'texas' to the guy who gets it all in with AT) on the internet. It happens frequently.

AmarilloFats

The JJ hand.
Unless original raiser has a very low PFR I raise a healthy amount preflop.
......and with all that dead money... :eek: ..

I am playing at these party tables at the moment ...original raiser has some muck..All the callers have some exotic muck...Raise it. BTW imo you should definitely raise with AQ here also.

If you are in the blinds and a guy with an average PFR% makes it 3BB to go what do you raise with ???? Just AA KK AK?.... that's not gonna make you a very difficult player??

The fact that there were a few callers make it all the more profitable to raise now and isolate the dead monies $$$$....

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

You're making the same mistake again.

I really don't see what mistake I'm making. What is to be gained by reraising JJ out of position 4 way? And the lower the stakes the less there is to be gained by reraising here. You are hoping that one villain calls, and folds to your bet on the flop. That mightn't be a bad play with a lesser hand, but there's no point in passing up a set opportunity with JJ in a 4 way raised pot.

Unlike if it was a heads up situation, one play is either correct or incorrect here. There's no need to sometimes reraise, sometimes call, you might as well reraise with 72o here if that was the case (it's a relatively better line for 72o than JJ), as your goal is to take it down on the flop.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

I really don't see what mistake I'm making. What is to be gained by reraising JJ out of position 4 way? And the lower the stakes the less there is to be gained by reraising here. You are hoping that one villain calls, and folds to your bet on the flop. That mightn't be a bad play with a lesser hand, but there's no point in passing up a set opportunity with JJ in a 4 way raised pot.

Unlike if it was a heads up situation, one play is either correct or incorrect here. There's no need to sometimes reraise, sometimes call, you might as well reraise with 72o here if that was the case (it's a relatively better line for 72o than JJ), as your goal is to take it down on the flop.

The mistake your making is a logical mistake, where you compare two incomparable situations. Its not a choice between calling and hitting a set/ reraising and taking it down, as you are continually implying. In fact you need to compare the EV of the sum of the possible outcomes. The two posts you made were meaningless non statements.

Goodluck2me

The reason you re-raise is precisely because there are 4 callers to the flop. you are getting a call from a re-raise much less often with cards like 22-99, or low suited connectors much less often. these are the hands you are more likely to be stakced with as there is often less danger on the flop a la over cards...straights etc. its -ev imo not to re-raise here with a fairly premium hand. if you only do it with AKs,AA and KK you may as well show your cards. obviously big multi-way pots oop are not great, so a big pot heads up is better.

NickyOD

goodluck2me wrote:

The reason you re-raise is precisely because there are 4 callers to the flop. you are getting a call from a re-raise much less often with cards like 22-99, or low suited connectors much less often. these are the hands you are more likely to be stakced with as there is often less danger on the flop a la over cards...straights etc. its -ev imo not to re-raise here with a fairly premium hand. if you only do it with AKs,AA and KK you may as well show your cards. obviously big multi-way pots oop are not great, so a big pot heads up is better.

This isn't entirely true, especially at these stakes on Party poker. In a very loose game calling is probaly better. it really depends what kind of players the others who have already entered the pot are. If the player who opened is only raising preflop less than 5% of the time (which is not uncommon) I'm definitely just calling.

Goodluck2me

NickyOD wrote:

This isn't entirely true, especially at these stakes on Party poker. In a very loose game calling is probaly better. it really depends what kind of players the others who have already entered the pot are. If the player who opened is only raising preflop less than 5% of the time (which is not uncommon) I'm definitely just calling.

i agree that if a tight player raises you have to give a littl ebit of extra respect to it, but the button call i give none to and would like to take adv of the extra dead money. JJ is vulnerable but much less so heads up, so i try to take the adv of my pre flop strength, ie 4th best hand. i also agree that it is player dependent there are some players who youd act differently with, but as a general rule for myself i raise again to narrow the field.