Opinions please

Lplate

Firstly let me say this post is NOT results oriented. The outcome of the hand is not important, it's the behaviour of a player that I'm querying.

Last 6 of a small tourney. I'm short stack and decide to move against new player in BB (who clearly is pretty decent) with A2s with something more than 4BB.

BB, with SB still to act, makes a clear motion to muck, but reins himself in when he realises he's about to act out of turn. SB then starts a speechplay about pot odds etc and how much it's going to cost him and how much it would cost him if he was BB and continues in this vein for a minute or so then mucks. BB then reconsiders and calls.

After the hand is over, SB then openly tells the table what great play it was from him to get the BB to call with his speechplay.

I objected to this vigorously but got no support from the rest of the table, quite the opposite in fact, he seemed to get the tacit support of the other players.

Am I over reacting to this? My point was that SB should be making his own decisions (he obviously lacked the balls to call himself) and not influencing others with what I thought was little short of collusion. IMO SB stepped over the line of acceptable table talk but the others obviously didn't agree.

Would like other opinions and not afraid of being told I'm wrong.

RoundTower

This kind of speech play would be out of order if it was up to me, and I think most speech play is OK.

Mr. Flibble

AFAIK is most tournies speach play is not allowed unless the action is heads up.

I certainly think this was bad form here.

rag2gar

Theres nothing worse than somebody like that who is effectively a mouth-piece sitting there.Players become very agreeable with the loadest player in order for themselves to avoid any rants. Its basically a classic example of a bully and a few cowards.

I would however suggest you find a little bit more of a competitive game where all decisions are made by the players themselves as they actully have confidence in their ability and will play accordingly.

Sorry to hear about your situation, can be difficult to keep sane when you're obviosly being hard-done by and nobody is agreeing with you:)

loosecannon

i would have to agree with Mr. Flibble and say that in this case it's certainly bad form but i have seen this kind of stuff before

Lafortezza

Hero should tell SB to stfu while there's still players to act behind him.

Hitman Actual

Mr. Flibble wrote:

AFAIK is most tournies speach play is not allowed unless the action is heads up.

I certainly think this was bad form here.

I agree that SB was an idiot here and crossed the line, but I've never heard about speech play not being allowed unless it's heads-up. I'm sure this isn't correct, although maybe I'm taking your comment out of context?

El Stuntman

idiotic stuff by SB, just tell him to play his own fcukin' cards! Also remember to comment at great length when he is put to a tough decision later on... nothing like giving back some of his own medicine

but Mr Flibble is wrong...speech play is my favourite part of poker and is certainly not disallowed in any tournie situations (where would be the fun in a silent table?)

did you win the hand? if yes, then surely he did you a favour!

ZZR1100

BB, with SB still to act, makes a clear motion to muck, but reins himself in when he realises he's about to act out of turn. SB then starts a speechplay about pot odds etc and how much it's going to cost him and how much it would cost him if he was BB and continues in this vein for a minute or so then mucks. BB then reconsiders and calls.

After the hand is over, SB then openly tells the table what great play it was from him to get the BB to call with his speechplay.

I objected to this vigorously but got no support from the rest of the table, quite the opposite in fact, he seemed to get the tacit support of the other players.

Am I over reacting to this? My point was that SB should be making his own decisions (he obviously lacked the balls to call himself) and not influencing others with what I thought was little short of collusion. IMO SB stepped over the line of acceptable table talk but the others obviously didn't agree.

Would like other opinions and not afraid of being told I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]


SB asked how much was it for him to call which he is entitled to do ( twice I believe ).His motive was to slow the hand down and get the BB to at least think about calling. Whether this is crossing the line or not is open to debate but if he hadn't told you would not have known his motives and there would be no more about it.
"He seemed to get the tacit support of the other players."
BB said he was calling regardless of SB action
Button said he didn’t see any harm in it.
I said I am in the middle of a hand(the next hand was in play with me after raising) and leave the argument until later /

connie147

Lplate wrote:

Firstly let me say this post is NOT results oriented. The outcome of the hand is not important, it's the behaviour of a player that I'm querying.

Last 6 of a small tourney. I'm short stack and decide to move against new player in BB (who clearly is pretty decent) with A2s with something more than 4BB.

BB, with SB still to act, makes a clear motion to muck, but reins himself in when he realises he's about to act out of turn. SB then starts a speechplay about pot odds etc and how much it's going to cost him and how much it would cost him if he was BB and continues in this vein for a minute or so then mucks. BB then reconsiders and calls.

After the hand is over, SB then openly tells the table what great play it was from him to get the BB to call with his speechplay.

I objected to this vigorously but got no support from the rest of the table, quite the opposite in fact, he seemed to get the tacit support of the other players.

Am I over reacting to this? My point was that SB should be making his own decisions (he obviously lacked the balls to call himself) and not influencing others with what I thought was little short of collusion. IMO SB stepped over the line of acceptable table talk but the others obviously didn't agree.

Would like other opinions and not afraid of being told I'm wrong.

I was one of the players still involved in that game last night.Its a weekly €150 f/o game played amongst friends.with the same people participating for the last two years.Lplates description of events are pretty close ,basically sb deliberated about calling the all-in asking out loud how much more to call etc etc,but sb was pretty tanked and when BB called and knocked lplate out,sb then wanted to say it was his speech play got bb to call.It became a heated discussion with nobody else at the table becoming involved.When lplate had left for home,ALL players told sb he was out of order which I think he now excepts(i'll wait till i meet him sober today).
ps:BB stated afterwards that he was calling regardless of the speech play,the only reason he looked like folding was if sb called,he was mucking his 5-6o.Arguements with drink involved are never any good,thats why the less said the better at the time.
With both players on the kerry team,we'll have to call a truce lol

Lplate

To answer those who asked, no I didn't win the hand but as said that was not the point. The BB should have been calling the bet with his chips and I shook his hand and said NH as I always do.

I was disgusted with the behaviour of SB and especially his bragging afterwards of what a great play he'd just executed. TBH I think it's debateable if the BB would have called anyway but he seemed like a nice chap who probably wanted to diffuse a situation.

Anyway, I posted this to check that my own reaction wasn't ott and from the replies so far I don't think it was. Job done, life goes on.

Mr. Flibble

Mr. Flibble wrote:

AFAIK is most tournies speach play is not allowed unless the action is heads up.

I mean it is disallowed unless everyone has folded in the hand except two players, not when there are only 2 players left in the tourny.

smurph

connie147 wrote:

I was one of the players still involved in that game last night.Its a weekly €150 f/o game played amongst friends.with the same people participating for the last two years.Lplates description of events are pretty close ,basically sb deliberated about calling the all-in asking out loud how much more to call etc etc,but sb was pretty tanked and when BB called and knocked lplate out,sb then wanted to say it was his speech play got bb to call.It became a heated discussion with nobody else at the table becoming involved.When lplate had left for home,ALL players told sb he was out of order which I think he now excepts(i'll wait till i meet him sober today).
ps:BB stated afterwards that he was calling regardless of the speech play,the only reason he looked like folding was if sb called,he was mucking his 5-6o.Arguements with drink involved are never any good,thats why the less said the better at the time.
With both players on the kerry team,we'll have to call a truce lol

J*sus Connie, sounds like a report from the GAA on the Kerry Team (Reports of inhouse fighting and disputes, management problems etc., etc.,) Just when you think its safe they'll F'in well come up to Dublin and smoke the other counties in the Poker Cup in September. My money is on Kerry LOL

Hitman Actual

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I mean it is disallowed unless everyone has folded in the hand except two players, not when there are only 2 players left in the tourny.

I disagree with this, tbh. Even if there are players left to act, and the decision is on you, there's nothing to stop you targetting a particular player and trying to get some info from him. That's totally within the spirit of the game.

Speech play used to directly influence another players decision, as described in the OP, doesn't fall into this category, but as usual there's always going to be some debate about what is good and bad etiquette.

5starpool

Lenny, the official rule in the Fitz at least is that no speachplay is allowe3d while more than 2 players are left in the hand. It is somewhat loosely applied though, and different dealers apply it (or not) in different ways.

Hitman Actual

5starpool wrote:

Lenny, the official rule in the Fitz at least is that no speachplay is allowe3d while more than 2 players are left in the hand. It is somewhat loosely applied though, and different dealers apply it (or not) in different ways.

Really? I never knew this, although maybe that's cos I generally play in games where most people know each other anyway, and there's often a bit of banter amongst players (I'm thinking of the scalps game here).

Mr. Flibble

lenny_leonard wrote:

I disagree with this, tbh. Even if there are players left to act, and the decision is on you, there's nothing to stop you targetting a particular player and trying to get some info from him. That's totally within the spirit of the game.

Speech play used to directly influence another players decision, as described in the OP, doesn't fall into this category, but as usual there's always going to be some debate about what is good and bad etiquette.

I think that speech play with 3+ players in the hand can lead to problems, even if theres no mal-intent.
Last night in a home game on the river I'd bet with two players left to act. The first player is sitting there making his decision and trying to get info out of me. He then says that I definatly have an ace, theres an ace on the board, as my hand is covering my cards (there'd been talk that one of the aces had a bend in the card) and folds. Then the next player says something like 'oh yeah, nice one' and folds too.
Even tho he ment nothing by it and what he said would have been fine heads up, this was pretty annoying as he was helping the last player make his decision (I actually had aces up:()

connie147

smurph wrote:

J*sus Connie, sounds like a report from the GAA on the Kerry Team (Reports of inhouse fighting and disputes, management problems etc., etc.,) Just when you think its safe they'll F'in well come up to Dublin and smoke the other counties in the Poker Cup in September. My money is on Kerry LOL

Wise bet smurf and while ur at it,double it up with the footballers.they,re using poker tactics ie:weak is strong.Just when ye think ye're gonna win it,our lads will snatch Sam out from under ye're noses and bring him home.
Well thats the plan anyway but I suppose we had better win this inter county poker cup just in case.
They say its a great sign when team members have disagreements in training,so thats just another pointer in our favour. lol

RoundTower

connie147 wrote:

I was one of the players still involved in that game last night.Its a weekly €150 f/o game played amongst friends.with the same people participating for the last two years.

I change my ruling. If it's a home game kind of thing, speech play is encouraged and so is bragging about your great speech play for the rest of the night.

ZZR1100

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I He then says that I definatly have an ace, theres an ace on the board, as my hand is covering my cards (there'd been TALK that one of the aces had a BEND in the card) and folds. Then the next player says something like 'oh yeah, nice one' and folds too.
(I actually had aces up:()

Any spare seats in this home game ?

Scouser in Dub

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I think that speech play with 3+ players in the hand can lead to problems, even if theres no mal-intent.
Last night in a home game on the river I'd bet with two players left to act. The first player is sitting there making his decision and trying to get info out of me. He then says that I definatly have an ace, theres an ace on the board, as my hand is covering my cards (there'd been talk that one of the aces had a bend in the card) and folds. Then the next player says something like 'oh yeah, nice one' and folds too.
Even tho he ment nothing by it and what he said would have been fine heads up, this was pretty annoying as he was helping the last player make his decision (I actually had aces up:()

no new decks in this home game?

Mr. Flibble

Scouser in Dub wrote:

no new decks in this home game?

That would be a luxury. Turned up to the game hand we had no chips, let alone cards. Had to phone around to get a set of chips and guy bought 1 deck (new sealed & plastic which was something).

ZZR1100, you wish there was a spare seat, I'd still play these guys if every card was marked they're so bad!

Scouser in Dub

I know those games all too well if ever there's a seat