2 draw pushes

pok3rplaya

Both these guys are decent players who have reraised me pf a number of times in the last hour or so between different tables. Good plays? Also do you rather the flop push or the flop raise?

1) Villian is decent TAG. 22/16/agro

***** Hand History for Game 4746814498 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 17, 05:57:52 ET 2006
Table Table 110003 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: bERGLAH ( $426 )
Seat 3: Tphu4u15 ( $232.40 )
Seat 1: lolYouFoldEZ ( $587.69 )
Seat 4: trongthuy ( $91.60 )
Seat 5: MiAMiMoVeR ( $608.70 )
trongthuy posts small blind [$2].
MiAMiMoVeR posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lolYouFoldEZ [ Tc 9c ]
lolYouFoldEZ raises [$16].
bERGLAH folds.
Tphu4u15 folds.
trongthuy folds.
MiAMiMoVeR raises [$43].
lolYouFoldEZ calls [$31].
Pot: $90
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, Qs, 5s ]
MiAMiMoVeR bets [$74].
lolYouFoldEZ is all-In [$540.69]
MiAMiMoVeR calls [$466.69].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]


2) Villian is what I would call semi-LAG. Very active. 32/22/aggro

***** Hand History for Game 4746820518 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 17, 06:01:01 ET 2006
Table Table 107717 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: chobo_19 ( $554.80 )
Seat 4: pplogic ( $691.80 )
Seat 5: pr0tst ( $396 )
Seat 6: weiwei888222 ( $1153.09 )
Seat 1: lolYouFoldEZ ( $398 )
Seat 2: MiAMiMoVeR ( $402 )
MiAMiMoVeR posts small blind [$2].
chobo_19 posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lolYouFoldEZ [ 7c 8c ]
pplogic folds.
pr0tst folds.
lolYouFoldEZ raises [$16].
MiAMiMoVeR folds.
chobo_19 raises [$44].
lolYouFoldEZ calls [$32].
Pot: $90
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Kc, 6c ]
chobo_19 bets [$60.77].
lolYouFoldEZ raises [$200].
chobo_19 is all-In [$446.03]
lolYouFoldEZ is all-In [$150]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]

5starpool

I'm sure somebody thinks it is good play but it's lost you a grand (I assume) when you were trying to push a loose aggressive player off a big pot? Seems wrong to me, especially in the first hand.

Lafortezza

I'd prefer this against tight opponents where your fold equity is bigger.

AmarilloFats

hand: 1
How often has villain reraised you. How wide is his range. How great is your FE?? I think I'd prefer to have a stronger draw.

Stronger draw in hand 2... once you reraise you are committed.. So i think I prefer AI on flop

pok3rplaya

5starpool wrote:

I'm sure somebody thinks it is good play but it's lost you a grand (I assume) when you were trying to push a loose aggressive player off a big pot? Seems wrong to me, especially in the first hand.

When I say loose I mean active pf. That don't mean he can't make some folds post flop. But I don't know for sure if he could/couldn't fold lets say AK here.

pok3rplaya

AmarilloFats wrote:

hand: 1
How often has villain reraised you. How wide is his range. How great is your FE?? I think I'd prefer to have a stronger draw.

Stronger draw in hand 2... once you reraise you are committed.. So i think I prefer AI on flop

Both guys have reraised me maybe 3 to 5 times each in an hour. I can't put a guess to his range, thats pretty villian specific and reraise hands don't get shown down much. Could be all pocket pairs, could be down to A9, could be complete trash.

FE is difficuly to estimate but all the other times he reraised me I have folded, so this time I'm repping a big hand. I hope.


Yep obviously when I reraise in hand 2 I am committed but sometimes I feel like a push looks like I don't want a call.

5starpool

Against loose active players I prefer to do this with some sort of made hand (even top pair good kicker) than with a draw. If you are not sure whether these guys can be pushed off a pair/2 pair hand this surely isn't the best way to find out? Against players you know can then this move definitely has merits, but it doesn't seem to me you know enough about him to judge at this point, though I'm sure these 2 hands let you find out (unless they have monsters in them both).

RoundTower

First hand I would prefer to call in position and bluff any scare card, or even just fold. Second hand I think is fine, doesn't matter much if you make it 200 or push.

Like any bluffs though these are dependent on so many things you can't tell us, you obviously have quite a bit of history with both villains so you need to do this from time to time.

dunkamania

Hand 1,you pushed all in with a weak draw for 6 times the pot,I think this is
-EV

fuzzbox

I hate the first one. You raised utg, and the only other player to enter the pot was the BB and he reraised you. Just drop it here.
Postflop, is a big spew also, cos your line looks like a bluff.

I kinda like the 2nd one, although I would prefer a fold preflop more often than not, but certainly I make this play every now and then.

pok3rplaya

fuzzbox wrote:

I hate the first one. You raised utg, and the only other player to enter the pot was the BB and he reraised you. Just drop it here.
Postflop, is a big spew also, cos your line looks like a bluff.

If I play the postflop same as hand 2, how much better is it?

fuzzbox

pok3rplaya wrote:

If I play the postflop same as hand 2, how much better is it?

As a whole, its worse, your draw is worse, and there are way more hands that villain could have that will stack-off on this board. AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AsKs for example.
Plus, your open raise *should* be stronger in that position, and therefore his BB reraised represents a lot of strength, so he's much less likely to have something that he wants to fold on that board postflop.

Hand 2 - he could fold QQ/JJ and your draw is better, if he does call (you have gutshot and fd).

pok3rplaya

OK I see what you're saying thanks.

My hugest mistake was calling pf with the notion that I was gonna push any draw regardless.