Military Hand to Hand Fighting

judomick

This guys English sucks, But this is a very good video little bit of SBG used too!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u36VpN-P1U&mode=related&search=

Millionaire

yeah thats an interesting clip...

KM as I did in Isreal is pretty much done as in the clip.

Thai + the best stolen from wrestling and (modern)BJJ.. Imi the founder of KM was a World class champion wrestler.

50% of the vid make sense 50% is just another opinion.

Michael O Leary

The Krav Maga done in the video clip was done at the same pace and intensity as some of the BJJ stuff I worked on in the last SBG seminar such as the scissors leg work that Travis did with us so I don't know what the point is.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

judomick

Michael O Leary wrote:

The Krav Maga done in the video clip was done at the same pace and intensity as some of the BJJ stuff I worked on in the last SBG seminar such as the scissors leg work that Travis did with us so I don't know what the point is.

but did you not then have to see if it worked against your partner resisting? i think the point is pretty obvious?

Michael O Leary

Hi Mick,

No, as far as I can remember we did not work it against a resisting partner. If my partner knows what I am going to do, no matter how hard I try I cannot get it to work if he is resisting. (As Matt himself said) It is only when your partner does not know what you are going to do that you can incorportate it into your "game". Roper could not get it to work on the day but it fell into his game some time later. :cool:

I understand the concept of the "i method" as it is something used in Wing Tsun also. (Practise the movement in isolation before bringing it into your game) The thing is however that the makers of the video rubbished Krav Maga and showed them practising the technique in the isolation stage and them compared it to MMA guys getting "stuck in". Hardly a fair comparison and one which could be reversed if there was a video of SBG guys slowly practising the leg locks against unresisting partners at the isolation stage and it was compared to the average session ot Tae-Bo.

Maybe the Krav Maga guys go at it full tilt as Gerry has testified with his training in Israel but the makers of the video chose not to include it. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Millionaire

Michael O Leary wrote:

Maybe the Krav Maga guys go at it full tilt as Gerry has testified with his training in Israel but the makers of the video chose not to include it. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

While Krav does do alot of technique work... Isolate stage as you call it.
They sure do mix it up too... and I had to tap out many times over there.

KM Worldwide Europe, have recognised that some KM organisations ignore the fighting side, and these guys follow the Baz Rutten MMA system of fighting along side, following the Technique orientated KM.

Also kravmaga.com got a full bjj and kickboxing training too.

Me... I am not a KM man no more, I am a Muay Thai student with an interest in combatives style SD.

judomick

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Mick,

No, as far as I can remember we did not work it against a resisting partner.

Roper could not get it to work on the day but it fell into his game some time later. :cool:

Roper couldnt get it to work? Maybe because you were resisting?

Michael O Leary wrote:

The thing is however that the makers of the video rubbished Krav Maga and showed them practising the technique in the isolation stage and them compared it to MMA guys getting "stuck in". Hardly a fair comparison and one which could be reversed if there was a video of SBG guys slowly practising the leg locks against unresisting partners at the isolation stage and it was compared to the average session ot Tae-Bo.

THis is quite true but from what ive seen and in general i think Km is not widely trained as they do in Israel, theres a course in ireland you can do in one day that will make you stgreet lethal, whereas 100% bjj schools from what ive seen train with resistance at some point

Millionaire

judomick wrote:

theres a course in ireland you can do in one day that will make you stgreet lethal,

Yes but that course is not proper KM. What you learn in that course, would not even get you a yellow belt under Israeli Krav Maga. I told the senior KM instructors about what I was learning in Ireland, and they fell about the place laughing, saying it was rubbish.

I think in Ireland people have been given a completely wrong and incorrect idea of what KM is and how it is trained.

If trained properly and in all ranges KM is an excellent system.

It is trained with resisting partners, there is fighting in all ranges, including a very strong grappling element, and of course the weapons defences, and at higher grades military applications. Sure there is parts of KM I do not like, as in making you practice high kicks and spinning kicks (which I used to be pretty good at, but these kicks have little practical value).

Roper

Michael O Leary wrote:

No, as far as I can remember we did not work it against a resisting partner. If my partner knows what I am going to do, no matter how hard I try I cannot get it to work if he is resisting. (As Matt himself said) It is only when your partner does not know what you are going to do that you can incorportate it into your "game". Roper could not get it to work on the day but it fell into his game some time later. :cool:

I remember now! Sorry lads I was racking my brain there. My memory isn't great. This was the x-guard variation we worked on the 2nd day with Travis? I did it fine in the introduction stage, but once we went into the isolation stage and began to introduce some low resistance, it fell apart for me! About two week later to keep it in my head, we drilled it in class. Next class damn near everybody was doing the sweep off it! Wouldn't mind seeing it again though to refresh it.

Michael,
Was I working with you on that? My memory fails me again. Point is that this is one of the reasons the 'I' method works. I get to drill against an uncooperative partner at progressive stages of resistance. If I can do a sweep on a guy who's resisting at 60%, and who knows I'm going to do it, even if at that stage I only get it 1 in 5 times I try, there's a good chance that it will get incorporated into my game. Sometimes (as in this case) it may be that I don't yet have the game in which to incorporate it. Prior to that seminar my open guard game varied from poor to non-existant. But because of the nature of the drilling, I can remember it and the variations off it and use it later.


Anyway I take your point about videos on the web not being representative, but I think we can agree that cooperative training is endemic in that MA world and benefits nobody except the teachers of it.

judomick

Millionaire wrote:

Yes but that course is not proper KM. What you learn in that course, would not even get you a yellow belt under Israeli Krav Maga. I told the senior KM instructors about what I was learning in Ireland, and they fell about the place laughing, saying it was rubbish.

I think in Ireland people have been given a completely wrong and incorrect idea of what KM is and how it is trained.

Well improper KM seems to be taught more than the proper stuff

Millionaire wrote:

If trained properly and in all ranges KM is an excellent system.

Absofeckinlutely;)

I thought the clips of Km guy competing in a combat enviroment i.e UFC was quite an eye opener though

Michael O Leary

Hi Lads,

No I didn't train with Roper (more is the pity:) ). I am just going on what he said. I agree with the "I method" and while it is there is Wing Tsun, it is somethilng that I aim to personally develop further.

It is just that videos like this do not portray martial arts in an honast way and are just propaganda. You cannot look at Krav Maga and assume that it is trained against unresisting opponents mostly.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

i've said it so many times before...and i'm sure i'll be saying it so many times again but

naming 'styles' does nothing but upset people. it is only TRAINING METHODS that matter

get a bunch of techniques (in stand-up, clinch and ground) that have been proven to work against a resisting opponent on enough occasions for them to be assumed solid (empirical evidence) train them in such a way that has been proven to produce results with improved performance (I-method coaching for example) then fine tune that system to the individual athletes attributes and personality. hey voila you have a functional martial artist.

this is the scientific or evidence based approach. or scrap all that and have Faith.

now back to youtube to dig up more clips of style X v style Y to support my worldview lol:D

Roper

I have faith in the I method... ooooh now I'm all confused!:D

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

get a bunch of techniques (in stand-up, clinch and ground) that have been proven to work against a resisting opponent on enough occasions for them to be assumed solid

Here is an example of such a proven technique in stand up as per what John mentions....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrmxKhpUKWo

This one has been defiantely proven, tried and tested!

droc

John, can you please keep rational thought off MA forums

Thanks

DROC

Michael O Leary

Millionaire wrote:

Here is an example of such a proven technique in stand up as per what John mentions....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrmxKhpUKWo

This one has been defiantely proven, tried and tested!

Nice WingTsun Gerry.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Mola.mola

sorry can someone tell me what the i-method is? does it play mp3s?

judomick

Mola.mola wrote:

sorry can someone tell me what the i-method is? does it play mp3s?

here you go Kev

Introduce: Demonstrate and explain the material being taught, let them drill it to get a basic understanding and put it static reps.

Isolate: Work on the material in isolation, usually with drills or restricted sparring with progressively increasing resistance/difficulty.

Intregrate: Have the students encorporate the material into their whole game, usually in free rolling/sparring

Millionaire

Michael O Leary wrote:

Nice WingTsun Gerry.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

So that is similar to WT? Very Interesting.

Thats a basic combatives attack.

It in a way would have similarity to the RAT system as developed for Paul Vunak.

Open hand shots are mega powerful, and have serious KO potential.

Mola.mola

thanks a million for that explanation mick. you should come down to roper's on friday for a roll.

Millionaire wrote:

Open hand shots are mega powerful, and have serious KO potential.

I've experimented with open hand shots (palm shots/slaps) on a heavy bag along with back of the wrist, the only way i could get good power was throwing them in big swings some where between a cross and a hook. what do you think gerry?

Millionaire

Mola.mola wrote:

I've experimented with open hand shots (palm shots/slaps) on a heavy bag along with back of the wrist, the only way i could get good power was throwing them in big swings some where between a cross and a hook. what do you think gerry?

From the Fence postion...which can be close in to attacker basically 2 types of Palm Shots.

1. Straight out... pretty much like a right cross, only your hitting with palm heel. reason is to avoid break your hand/wrist when you hit someones rock hard head with a bare fits.

2. Upper cut style, again your in fairly close, and you slam it right up under the chin, which cranks attackers head back, you hit with palm.. 2 things usually happen. 1. attcker is in perfect place for knee to nuts, and as your driving forward, getting the knee in is comes easy. 2. as You palm him up under chin, and head cracks back, its easier to clinch him, spin him as you move behind, and get a choke on in standing position.


Open Hand slap, again from fence, yes...almost swings up and in. it comes up from under his line of vision, so is harder to see, especially if you engage him with a question beofore you hit. target is jaw for KO, side of neck. or even side of head.

You can also slap down into someone face, as in your hands are up in a high fence , and slap down... try in on some pads... in no time you will get serious KO power.

Now if your training your punches boxing style , bad, pads, spar... you got 90% of the delievery system in place and with small adjustment... you got 2 mighty open handed shots..

Yesterday I did 2 rounds bare knuckle on that heacy bag, and i could not hit full power as bag was so hard, my wrists might have sprained, but with palms or slaps there is no problem.

There is plenty of experts on slaps etc again as per geoffs forums and some good threads on there too, from way better skilled people, who can give you good info too!

Happy Slappin Mate!!!

I am a slapper LOL!!!!