I'm on top of the world looking down on creation

fuzzbox

PP 3/6 6-max

Rock of Gibraltar (660) UTG
Hero (shining white teeth, winning smile) - (800) - UTG+1
Shorto Mc Pussybet (430) - BB

I've been here only a short while and have only shown down one hand. LP minraised, sb called and I called in the BB with 86o, flop came 997 twotone, checked around, turn T, check, I pot, two calls, river Q, check, I half pot, pfr minraises, sb folds, I call. He had K9o and MHIG.

I have played a lot with Rocko and he is a lump of granite that puts even me to shame. I am merely sandstone or maybe slate, compared to this dude. He is not averse to limping into pots, especially in ep.

I dont know shorto mc pussybet

Preflop
Rocko opens to 22 UTG, I decide to smooth call with Qh Qs next to act. Mostly I reraise, but its rocko, who pfrs about 5%. Some1 calls behind me, BB calls, and its 4 way to the flop.

Flop (90)
Qc 9d 3c
Shorto McPussybet bets 15 (*sigh*). Rocky thinks for a time and makes it 80 to play. I think for a time and shove for 800


comments?

Bandana boy

I do like the shove with top set normally as you will often get a dude drawing dead calling you

but surely Rock of gibraltar is laying down a lot of hands here and your not giving player 4 a chance to contribute

I might find a call here

ianmc38

Surely even the Rock of Girbraltar drops AA/KK with that action?

sunzz

As you said rock is a good player, he's laying down AA/KK here, do you put him on a flush draw and not wanting to give a free card? Even so we are not maximizing our profits here, he lays down everything here I Can possibly think think off, 99 AA/KK AKc.

I dont like the play but hey I dont play at those levels ":D

Gholimoli

i dont think you can hide your hand here no matter what you do.
if you had been active making plays and showing down bluffs etc i'll say the play has good chance of working v AA/KK but i dont see rocko folding AA/KK here anyway unless he is really good so over all i think the play is good.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Surely even the Rock of Girbraltar drops AA/KK with that action?

So what is your line then? Call? Raise smaller?

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

I do like the shove with top set normally as you will often get a dude drawing dead calling you

but surely Rock of gibraltar is laying down a lot of hands here and your not giving player 4 a chance to contribute

I might find a call here

You want to call, in a 4-way pot on a Q9x twotone board with two other players putting money in?

What do you do on a ... KJT8 or club turn?

Btw - in my experience, the SB has either a big made hand (set/twopair) or a draw.

Rocky prolly has AQ+ I guess.

ianmc38

I flat call here 0% of the time. A board with a million and one draws like this is not one to start slow-playing sets on. Pump it. I like a raise to 200/250.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I flat call here 0% of the time. A board with a million and one draws like this is not one to start slow-playing sets on. Pump it. I like a raise to 200/250.

What do you gain by making it 200/250 that you dont gain by shoving?

And what do you lose by shoving that you dont lose by making it 200/250?

AmarilloFats

You can't hide the strength of your hand in this spot.
I like the push...Especially if villain thinks you can push with draw..

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

You can't hide the strength of your hand in this spot.
I like the push...Especially if villain thinks you can push with draw..

Villain doent just think it ...... he knows it.

ianmc38

Shove you potentially lose AA/KK. Make it 200/250 to go and the chances of this happening are less likely. It'll also mean they find it harder to let go of their hand on the turn as they've so much invested in the pot already.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

Villain doent just think it ...... he knows it.

In that case it's definite push, although I don't think you have any other option really, just push and I'd just hope he puts you on a draw and calls with his AA, KK and hope the shorty has something like 99 or 2 pair and might come along as well...

luckylucky

Hmmm as Ianmc says rock will find it hard to call with AA or KK if he really is that much of a rock.
On the other hand though he's tight with a prf 5% granted I still wouldn't totally rule him out of having 9s still probably not likely, Shorto Mc Pussybet is a different story though - he could well have the 9s or 3s.

Also you got the flush and straight going on, it seems likely that one of them has at least 1 draw.

I'm thinking though overall that I like the play - there are enough muppets out there who will make the call with even JTo - and somebody with 3s and 9s will have a tough lay down to make and they could quite easily put you on a draw so may very well call. Also the 9s and 3s will most likely tighten on the turn if the flush or straight hits and of course you're not going to be too happy with that either.

Yeah I think it was the right move - though if I see both of them fold which probably will happen more often than not I'm going to be real p'd off in that moment.

looking at the alternatives -

A. you just flat call then you are basically saying you have a real good hand or you are drawing - if I had some sort of read on shorto that told me he was very likely to re-raise then I might consider a flat call - otherwise it's gotta be the wrong play - too many cards can come on the turn which you won't like or that allow your opponents to get away from the hand.

B. You re-raise by a decentish amount ( a min raise would make no sense) a pot size or maybe a bit more - this kind of raise can look more believable though and bottom set might drop out - but they can also put you on a draw and come back over the top, also an ace high flush draw may stick around, what I would be worried about here is if somebody had both straight and flush draw you have still priced them in.


In summary I think what you did was fine - I used never do this as I thought players would never call such big bets but started doing it and was surprised how often they did, sometimes even with just top pair!(correction I've seen a guy call me with middle pair crap kicker when i totally overbet the pot with a set)

I would however play it like B. on occasion too but I'm defo siding with the way you played it.

Anyway that's my opinion on it - take it it worked out for you and you scooped a big pot anyway

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Shove you potentially lose AA/KK. Make it 200/250 to go and the chances of this happening are less likely. It'll also mean they find it harder to let go of their hand on the turn as they've so much invested in the pot already.

Ian, so imagine that you are sitting there utg with AA, you open raise, and a tight but v.aggro head calls you next to act, a big stack calls behind him and a shorty dude calls behind *him*

Flop Qc 9h 3c,
shorto leads for 15, you make it 80 and the tight aggro dude makes it 250

What do you think this tight aggro head has?
What do you do if shorty calls?
What do you do if shorty shoves?
What do you do if shorty folds?

Hmmm?


Now, same action, same flop but this time
shorto leads for 15, you make it 80 and TAD shoves

Does this widen TADs range or narrow it?

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Shove you potentially lose AA/KK. Make it 200/250 to go and the chances of this happening are less likely. It'll also mean they find it harder to let go of their hand on the turn as they've so much invested in the pot already.

your giving effective and implied odds all over with this raise.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

your giving effective and implied odds all over with this raise.

You raise to 250. That makes the pot 450. They have to pay 170 to see the turn. So they're getting 2.6-1 to see the turn. If they've got a flush draw or an open ender they're not getting effective odds to call.
They only have implied odds if we decide to pay off when they hit.

Shoving is fine, raising is fine. Mixing up our play is of course essential. I'll shove there with a range of hands sometimes and raise other times.

Shoving does add some disguise to the hand in that a draw is now in FB's range rather than a raise which may appear to some as a set or an overpair and i spose Fuzz to answer your other question, we may lose people who are on a draw here when we're happy to have them come along.

fuzzbox

Results:
shorty called, and rocky dutifully folded. I figure he might call if I push, and shorty folds, but when shorty calls, one of us likely has a better made hand and the other probably has a big draw, so he is right to fold his AA/KK (if he had that).

The turn was the disgusting Tc, and my heart sank. The river was a blank.
Thankfully shorty had 99 for the underset. yaaay me.

luckylucky

nice one

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

You raise to 250. That makes the pot 450. They have to pay 170 to see the turn. So they're getting 2.6-1 to see the turn. If they've got a flush draw or an open ender they're not getting effective odds to call.
They only have implied odds if we decide to pay off when they hit.

Shoving is fine, raising is fine. Mixing up our play is of course essential. I'll shove there with a rnage of hads sometimes and riase other times.

Shoving does add some disguise to the hand in that a draw is now in FB's range rather than a raise which may appear to some as a set or an overpair and i spose Fuzz to answer your other quewstion, we may lose people who are on a draw here when we're happy to have them come along.

if shorty calls the raise to 250 does rock still get the odds your suggesting here?

ianmc38

And if we shove and shorty calls then (may be slightly off here) there is 1240 in the pot and it's 550 for rocko to call with a flush draw so he's getting better than 2-1.

luckylucky

Just turning this post around for a sec to the villain's view
what do people think of his call here with 99.
Personally I would have called here too - probably even automatically - anybody agree/disagree?

fuzzbox

ian : he's not 2:1 to win the hand though, as we have a set, therefore we have redraws.

fuzzbox

luckylucky wrote:

Just turning this post around for a sec to the villain's view
what do people think of his call here with 99.
Personally I would have called here too - probably even automatically - anybody agree/disagree?

in a heartbeat.

I hate his 15 bet tho. Thats just stupid.

ianmc38

luckylucky wrote:

Just turning this post around for a sec to the villain's view
what do people think of his call here with 99.
Personally I would have called here too - probably even automatically - anybody agree/disagree?

I couldn't press the call button any quicker

luckylucky

ianmc38 wrote:

And if we shove and shorty calls then (may be slightly off here) there is 1240 in the pot and it's 550 for rocko to call with a flush draw so he's getting better than 2-1.

Yeah he has the odds to try to make the flush draw but don't forget he can make it and still get beat by a hero redraw because of that factor without working it out exactly (its about 2 to 1 for hero to make a house or better) rocko still does not have thee right odds to try to make flush.

Anyway though overall I agree with your sentiment about mixing it up - I certainly wouldn't push all-in 100% of time here but I think it's the right move to do most of the time. Hmm though I be feeling this hand - I can see why he smelled those 9s

Norwich Fan Rob

i love the push here.

it looks like a draw, or maybe KK, rock often has AA and may decide to call, the other guys min lead out, looks like a set or a draw.

A number of cards on the turn can spoil our action, if a draw hit, we dont know if we are still ahead, AA will feel beat for sure to any more large bets, and even another set wont fancy their hand so much.

The push is defo the best play here , a lot of players wont push here with top set, and that disguises it somewhat, and a number of made hands may call you here.

cardshark202

I like the push too. Very nice.