Pot may indeed lead to heroin use, rat study shows

Miguel_Sanchez

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060712/hl_nm/pot_heroin_dc;_ylt=AhAZcGddHyzdBAjtA543aBsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NW41NTlyBHNlYwMxNzAx

What say ye rats?

LadyJ

Yeah but they gave the rats heroin.

Not everyone who smokes dope wants to or is stupid enough to go out and get smacked off their tits.

All they've found,as far as I can see,is that if a person who smokes dope gets hooked on heroin then they will take in larger amounts. Or get "more addicted".

But does it really matter whether you're a dope smoker junkie or just a regular junkie? Both are in as much danger.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I hate this argument

If you've tried heroin OF COURSE you'll have smoked dope first - just like you'll also have drank alcohol & water.

What this test is doing is just beyond belief.

They say later life you might be affected but the lifespan of a rat & a human are just so different there's no way they can accurately predict it will be the same for humans

Also if you try heroin chances are you'll get hooked - the rats weren't given a choice here. Pot smokers are.

Tha Gopher

Wait.....they gave rats cannabis.....then heroin.....result= cannabis causes heroin use? Maybe it does if your hash dealer pins you down next time you go around to buy a half and injects heroin into your arm against your will, keeping you captive and repeating it for several days until you are addicted.

People who have regularly smoked cannabis from their youth would certainly be more susceptible to using other drugs (waits for some spastic to say this isnt true), but this proves nothing more than if you inject rats with heroin they might get addicted. Wheres the association with weed? f they had injected them with heroin without ever having exposed them to cannabis would they not have got addicted? Meaning that if I hadnt started smoking at 15, id now be able to maintain a healthy, occasional socially acceptable heroin habit because my body hadnt been exposed to the chemicals in hash which make your first hit of heroin the start of a long addiction?

Someone should strike those researchers off the medical register

InFront

Tha Gopher wrote:

Wait.....they gave rats cannabis.....then heroin.....result= cannabis causes heroin use?

No, didnt you read the article? The rats who were given cannabis were more likely to administer heroin to themselves, it was not injected by the researchers but my self-service on behalf of the rat.

Someone should strike those researchers off the medical register

Mount Sinai is a highly respected and well known hospital and medical training institution and is at the forefront of international medical research. They have some of the best researchers and clinicians in the world.

LadyJ

InFront wrote:

No, didnt you read the article? The rats who were given cannabis were more likely to administer heroin to themselves, it was not injected by the researchers but my self-service on behalf of the rat.

Eh,they must surely have given the rat heroin initially,otherwise it wouldn't have known what it was.

They just found that after they had given both groups of rats a small amount of the drug,the ones that had been exposed to cannabis came back for more,more often.

Thus saying that if you have smoked dope and then you take heroin,it will be more addictive to you. But I'm pretty sure heroin is addictive as fcuk anyway so,really you're screwed either way.

The study doesn't show that people who take dope are more likely to take heroin. It just shows that if they do, it will have a stronger effect on them.

Ivan

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060712/hl_nm/pot_heroin_dc;_ylt=AhAZcGddHyzdBAjtA543aBsR.3QA wrote: »

She and her colleagues conclude: "The current findings provide direct evidence in support of the gateway hypothesis that adolescent cannabis exposure contributes to greater heroin intake in adulthood."

I find that entire sentence sums up the these findings...
Its just riddled with contradictions. They try to say it lends credibility to the gateway drug theory simply because it increases the usage of heroin. But to me that seems crazy, if its affect is to increase the usage and dosage of heroin then you are already taking it, I fail to see how this does anything but show that medical researchers have way too much time on their hands...

If anything, it shows future heroin users/abusers should avoid canabis in their early years in order to keep the cost of their heroin addiction down.

Seriously, aside from the fact that this study is inherently flawed, ignoring a whole host of potentially psychological factors, it is after all, Rats. While they are used for alot of animal testing they arent 100% accurate.

Perhaps if you could show me the same study involving monkeys, I might actually pause to wonder. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to roll a joint before I shoot up again :rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

InFront wrote:

No, didnt you read the article? The rats who were given cannabis were more likely to administer heroin to themselves, it was not injected by the researchers but my self-service on behalf of the rat.




Mount Sinai is a highly respected and well known hospital and medical training institution and is at the forefront of international medical research. They have some of the best researchers and clinicians in the world.

You Fool. Self service?? did someone tell them it's better than sex(see trainspotting)?

"Rat makes conscious decision to start using heroin"

Well maybe on the metro.

InFront

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

You Fool. Self service??

Read the article before you post. The rats administered heroin to themselves. Rats who had been on cannabis were more likely to take heroin more frequently.

this study is inherently flawed

Its just riddled with contradictions

Wow, the amount of people on boards.ie who know better than the Mount Sinai researchers, and can dismiss their research and international accreditation is truly impressive. You had better email the medical school at once and tell them.

Dave!

LadyJ wrote:

They just found that after they had given both groups of rats a small amount of the drug,the ones that had been exposed to cannabis came back for more,more often.

Thus saying that if you have smoked dope and then you take heroin,it will be more addictive to you. But I'm pretty sure heroin is addictive as fcuk anyway so,really you're screwed either way.

The study doesn't show that people who take dope are more likely to take heroin. It just shows that if they do, it will have a stronger effect on them.

Exactly. Assuming I understood the piece correctly... the research indicates that smoking pot makes heroin more addictive to you. It does not indicate that smoking pot makes you more prone to trying heroin. Thus, it does not prove sh*t, and the researchers trying to give the impression that it's a gateway drug makes me think that they have an agenda.

humbert

The article is just a brief synopsis of the experiment and their findings, it doesn't give nearly enough details to objectively asesss the validity of the experiment.

LadyJ

InFront wrote:

Wow, the amount of people on boards.ie who know better than the Mount Sinai researchers, and can dismiss their research and international accreditation is truly impressive. You had better email the medical school at once and tell them.

I'm pretty sure what he means is that the experiment does not prove heroin to be a gateway drug,but that seems to be the way they are trying to pitch it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

InFront wrote:

Read the article before you post. The rats administered heroin to themselves. Rats who had been on cannabis were more likely to take heroin more frequently.

I did. But the Rat's were given heroin initially. If you do that you're fu*cked whether you took cannibis or not.

So what annoys me about this article is the headline "Pot may indeed lead to heroin use, rat study shows"

No it doesn't - it may meen you'll become more dependant if you TRY heroin but I think everyone knows where heroin get's you these days. Reguardless of previous drug use. No point considering it when smoking pot.

antSionnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I did. But the Rat's were given heroin initially. If you do that you're fu*cked whether you took cannibis or not.
.

Yeah but all rats were given heroin as the once off, it was it the rats who took cannabis that were really ****ed.

No this doesnt prove its a gateway drug. But you have to admit, everyone who is on heroin in this country has (probably without exception) done cannabis in the past. Given that there are a set number of individuals in any given time who will become junkies, these conditions will be aggriviated by almost certain previous exposure to cannabis. The main point that this should awaken us to is not to do with "cannabis leading to heroin" but in fact that cannabis should not be legalised, because it can make future drug dependencies more severe. In fact, anti drug agencies should now campaign even more strongly against the use of cannabis.

It would be interesting to know what sort of effects alcohol and nicotine have on heroin use. Because they rely on similiar endocrine events I would guess it would be similiar to cannabis. Theyve become socially acceptable, but cannabis abuse is still within the realm of delinquency.

Dades

antSionnach wrote:

The main point that this should awaken us to is not to do with "cannabis leading to heroin" but in fact that cannabis should not be legalised, because it can make future drug dependencies more severe.

But as somebody already mentioned, unlike rats, there's probably no such thing as a junkie that hasn't already used cannabis. So whether it's legal or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether one leads to the other - and this experiment had proven nothing in this regard.

Dave!

antSionnach wrote:

But you have to admit, everyone who is on heroin in this country has (probably without exception) done cannabis in the past

Yeah and everyone who is on cannabis has probably done alcohol and nicotine, and water, and oxygen.

antSionnach

The Atheist wrote:

there's probably no such thing as a junkie that hasn't already used cannabis. So whether it's legal or not is irrelevant.QUOTE]

dont get me wrong, i dont believe this is has been proven to be a gateway drug, Im just making the point (even if you think its irrelevent) that this research is a very good case against the proposal by some people of my own agegroup and the dreadlocked student type, that cannabis should be legalised. It aggrevates a future addiction, and while it isnt yet proven that it directly or indirectly leads to the secondary addiction, it cant be ruled out either.

This doesnt prove that cannabis is a gateway drug, but its not rubbish and the researchers certainly shouldnt be struck off:rolleyes: as someone put it. Its very useful and valuable information on the effects of what is absolutely wrongly commonly perceived as a 'harmless' drug. There is not a single drug in existence which does not have unwanted side effects, not even asparin. This is just one of the dangerous side effects of cannabis abuse

antSionnach

DaveMcG wrote:

Yeah and everyone who is on cannabis has probably done alcohol and nicotine, and water, and oxygen.

I dont see your point. Cannabis has just been shown to aggrevate heroin addictions and who knows what else.

imprezza

because heroins so addicitve anyone who takes it will probably get hooked on it. they keep trying to connect pot and hard drugs and coming out with statements that contadict each other. I can't see how they can ever definitely prove smoking dope leads to hard drugs. If thats the case then can we assume that smoking cigarettes leads to smoking dope which leads to cocaine and heroin? Alcohols the worst drug on the planet, it causes more damage than any other drug in my opinion. I know loads of people who smoke dope but would never touch heroin. Maybe its cos their not rats. Oh maybe they mean Boomtown Rats? Bob geldof ah now it begins to make sense.

Dades

antSionnach wrote:

This doesnt prove that cannabis is a gateway drug, but its not rubbish and the researchers certainly shouldnt be struck off

I agree the research is not rubbish if understood. However although it's just not really an argument either for or against cannabis, its the type of research that is likely to get misrepresented on both sides - as we've seen here.

Dave!

antSionnach wrote:

I dont see your point. Cannabis has just been shown to aggrevate heroin addictions and who knows what else.

Ah misread your post as "everyone who has done heroin in this country has... probably... done cannabis"

LadyJ

antSionnach wrote:

It would be interesting to know what sort of effects alcohol and nicotine have on heroin use. Because they rely on similiar endocrine events I would guess it would be similiar to cannabis. Theyve become socially acceptable, but cannabis abuse is still within the realm of delinquency.

So do you think,if it was found that alcohol and nicotine had the same sort of effects,that they should be made illegal? Just curious.

I just mean that if cannabis stays illegal and the other two are still socially acceptable,then it wouldn't make much difference if cannabis were legalised or not.

punky

With heroin addiction, there are also environmental/class issues.

I know people I went to school with who are effectively junkies. But they're upper middle class. They've never really been exposed to herion. Hash, therefore, has led to doing harder stuff such as E and now coke. So now they're coke heads. Still junkies but have never touched smack.

I'd imagine if they'd grown up in the inner city or some sh1thole sink estate they would probably be herion addicts by now.

Just some food for thought.

antSionnach

LadyJ wrote:

So do you think,if it was found that alcohol and nicotine had the same sort of effects,that they should be made illegal? Just curious.
.

No I think that theyre already legal and its not at all practical or even possible to change that at this stage. Im just saying that this reasearch, more than anything else, just makes a case for the continued illigelaization of cannabis, why make a bad situation worse? We know of the harms, and this research hs uncovered a pretty serious side effect, it shouldnt be made legal, thats all Im saying.

I think the main issue is that about the gateway theory, which Im sure we all agree, hasnt yet been proven to a satisfactory degree.

Punky is also correct in saying that heroin addiction spreads beyond anything that can be explained by mere gateway theories.

Still, cannabis is bad and potentially dangerous, and people shouldnt be under any other impressions

LadyJ

antSionnach wrote:

No I think that theyre already legal and its not at all practical or even possible to change that at this stage. Im just saying that this reasearch, more than anything else, just makes a case for the continued illigelaization of cannabis, why make a bad situation worse? We know of the harms, and this research hs uncovered a pretty serious side effect, it shouldnt be made legal, thats all Im saying.

I just mean that,imo, if alcohol and nicotine did have the same effect then it wouldn't really matter if they legalised dope or not because there are very few people who smoke dope that don't drink and there are plenty of people who don't smoke dope but do drink.

I think if you are going to smoke the stuff then you won't care if it's legal or not. I don't think that a great many more people would decide to start using it,just because it was legal tbh. The amount of usage would surely increase but what would it matter if alcohol and cigarrettes were doing the very same thing?

antSionnach

LadyJ wrote:

I just mean that,imo, if alcohol and nicotine did have the same effect then it wouldn't really matter if they legalised dope or not because there are very few people who smoke dope that don't drink and there are plenty of people who don't smoke dope but do drink.

I think if you are going to smoke the stuff then you won't care if it's legal or not. I don't think that a great many more people would decide to start using it,just because it was legal tbh. The amount of usage would surely increase but what would it matter if alcohol and cigarrettes were doing the very same thing?

Theres a difference between recognising it wont change anything and actually legalising it. Legalising it would do nothing one way or the other, except to give some sort of symbolic gesture that its ok to do cannabit and thus fly in the face of what anti-drugs strategies are trying to achieve... we'd be pedalling backwards

Dades

antSionnach wrote:

Still, cannabis is bad and potentially dangerous, and people shouldnt be under any other impressions

The fact is though - lots of people are under lots of other well-informed impressions.

I'm not an advocate of legalisation for social reasons, but I don't believe it's as black and white as "cannabis is bad and potentially dangerous".

antSionnach

The Atheist wrote:

I'm not an advocate of legalisation for social reasons, but I don't believe it's as black and white as "cannabis is bad and potentially dangerous".

But those are the facts, unless you can prove that cannabis is not injurous to health and cannot aggrevate other drug addictions?

A review paper prepared for DrugScope's submission to the Home Affairs Select Committee. (Drawn extensively from a technical paper by John Witton, National Addiction Centre)

It causes the same kind of damage to the respiratory system as tobacco. It has already been proven to aggrevate mental health problems, and now has been proven to aggrevate other addictions. As I said smoking is bad for you too, probably in similiar ways, but thats legal now whether we like it or not.


Why dont you believe that cannabis is (a) bad, and (B) potentially dangerous because to do so is to deny hard scientific facts.

SpAcEd OuT

antSionnach wrote:

o. It has already been proven to aggrevate mental health problems, and now has been proven to aggrevate other addictions.

from your own link

However, the incidence of schizophrenia has decreased in recent years whilst the use of cannabis has increased. Hall suggests that, this may indicate that cannabis use is unlikely to have caused cases of schizophrenia that might not have otherwise occurred.






There is evidence that large doses of THC can produce an acute psychosis marked by confusion, amnesia, delusions, hallucinations, anxiety, and agitation. Such reactions are rare and occur usually after heavy cannabis use, or in some instances, after acute cannabis use by sensitive/vulnerable individuals. These effects abate rapidly after discontinuing cannabis use. There is little evidence that cannabis alone produces a psychosis that persists after the period of intoxication

antSionnach

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

from your own link

However, the incidence of schizophrenia has decreased in recent years whilst the use of cannabis has increased. Hall suggests that, this may indicate that cannabis use is unlikely to have caused cases of schizophrenia that might not have otherwise occurred.






There is evidence that large doses of THC can produce an acute psychosis marked by confusion, amnesia, delusions, hallucinations, anxiety, and agitation. Such reactions are rare and occur usually after heavy cannabis use, or in some instances, after acute cannabis use by sensitive/vulnerable individuals. These effects abate rapidly after discontinuing cannabis use. There is little evidence that cannabis alone produces a psychosis that persists after the period of intoxication

Spaced Out, relax.

Read my post. And read the article. Who ever said cannabis caused mental illness? It can aggrevate it, it doesnt actually cause it.

Its actually easier to read normal text believe it or not. I stopped giving your post credit when I saw the writing.

Bottle_of_Smoke

antSionnach wrote:

Spaced Out, relax.

Read my post. And read the article. Who ever said cannabis caused mental illness? It can aggrevate it, it doesnt actually cause it.

Its actually easier to read normal text believe it or not. I stopped giving your post credit when I saw the writing.

You're missing the point that peope can choose to accept the downsides of drugs. I dont like alcohol much - and its much more dangerous than cannibis. Just not to your lungs - I'd drink less if weed was legalised. And if it could be got in quantities legally it would be less toxic than cannibis resin and it could be mixed into food rather than smoked.

Plenty of "cures" with harmful side affects have been brought in. Why not weed.

People give Ritalin to kids with ADD- that has a lot more side affects than an adult smoking dope.

Lithium use is questioned though personally I think it is suitable for some cases.

You're going simple good citizen logic. Fine if you're Ned Flanders but it doesn't work in this world.

Tar.Aldarion

LadyJ wrote:

Not everyone who smokes dope wants to or is stupid enough to go out and get smacked off their tits.

Yes, I like my lovely drug, however I will never use heroin.
The rats were given heroin as a once off, the article proves nothing.

antSionnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

You're missing the point that peope can choose to accept the downsides of drugs. I dont like alcohol much - and its much more dangerous than cannibis.

Thats an opinion, its not a fact, the dangers of frequent abuse of cannabis and frequent alcohol abuse are cannot be measured and compared, and nobody can say with confidence which is more dangerous. Its like asking which is more dangerous, alcohol or cigarettes, though I presume you have some sort of theory on that too.

Plenty of "cures" with harmful side affects have been brought in. Why not weed.

Just as cocaine is used for therapeutics in ireland, I have absolutely no problem with cannabis being used for the same purpose. But your average punter isnt buying cannabis for a neurodegenerative illness he is suffering, hes doing it for the craic.

You say that people can choose to accept the downsides, then why not legalise acid, coke, ecstasy? Why not just make every drug freely available. I have friends who deal in one or more of these drugs, theyre all fine, bright, intelligent people. Do you advocate the legalisation of all drugs in that case?

People give Ritalin to kids with ADD- that has a lot more side affects than an adult smoking dope.

Lithium use is questioned though personally I think it is suitable for some cases.

The difference is, Ritalin isnt legal for people who are not prescribed it, neither are the Lithium formulations for MDD etc.

Lithium use is questioned? By whom? Renegade 'holistic' doctors and the equivalent of a tabloid health website Id suppose. Lithium has very minor side effects, much less minor than cannabis to begin with. Lithium is much safer than antipsychotics which are equally effective as it.

The rats were given heroin as a once off, the article proves nothing.

Im starting to wonder if everyone has been reading this article. Tar it proves that cannabis aggrevates heroin addictions in living organisms. cannabis exposed rats were the subject of the study and rats not expose to cannabis were the control. The latter showed a less severe heroin addiction.

Dades

antSionnach wrote:

Im starting to wonder if everyone has been reading this article. Tar it proves that cannabis aggrevates heroin addictions in living organisms. cannabis exposed rats were the subject of the study and rats not expose to cannabis were the control. The latter showed a less severe heroin addiction.

Everyone has read the article and concluded the same thing. For People who take heroin it's irrelevant if cannabis is illegal or not. They all will already have used it anyway. So the link this article makes between the two drugs in a human context is moot.

The question as to the dangers of cannabis, is a seperate, much longer, and more heated thread.

Tar.Aldarion

Thanks for saving me writing a long reply The Atheist.

Antsionnach, my reading skills are up to par, the title of the article is ridiculous.

antSionnach

sorry for the confusion, when you said that the article proved nothing i somehow thought you meant that the article proved nothing.

Anyway I agree, the title is misleading.

Tar.Aldarion

It proves nothing in relation to what it claims to prove from the title.
It is to be inferred from my post.

Bottle_of_Smoke

antSionnach wrote:

Thats an opinion, its not a fact, the dangers of frequent abuse of cannabis and frequent alcohol abuse are cannot be measured and compared, and nobody can say with confidence which is more dangerous. Its like asking which is more dangerous, alcohol or cigarettes, though I presume you have some sort of theory on that too.

I know plenty of people who've had their lives ruined by alchohol but none by cannibis. Would you rather see your son as a pothead or an alchihilic


[/QUOTE]Just as cocaine is used for therapeutics in ireland, I have absolutely no problem with cannabis being used for the same purpose. But your average punter isnt buying cannabis for a neurodegenerative illness he is suffering, hes doing it for the craic.[/QUOTE]

So what? is he harming you?

You say that people can choose to accept the downsides, then why not legalise acid, coke, ecstasy? Why not just make every drug freely available. I have friends who deal in one or more of these drugs, theyre all fine, bright, intelligent people. Do you advocate the legalisation of all drugs in that case?

Typical boards idiot jumping to extremes to make a point.

Coke - no
Ecstasy\LSD - don't really know enough about them. Probably make more sense than having alchohol legal. If you'd said mushrooms I would have said yes.

The difference is, Ritalin isnt legal for people who are not prescribed it, neither are the Lithium formulations for MDD etc.

Lithium use is questioned? By whom? Renegade 'holistic' doctors and the equivalent of a tabloid health website Id suppose. Lithium has very minor side effects, much less minor than cannabis to begin with. Lithium is much safer than antipsychotics which are equally effective as it.

People I know personally who've used it & their friends & relatives
It has plenty of side effects & it's very difficult to get off it - but as I said I don't disagree with it's use.

I was talking about people who it is prescribed legally to - a lot of the cases I've seen the kids are better off without it- but still it's prescribed because it doesn't have a stigma.

I think what people are trying to say to you is that if we're goign to fu*ck ourselves up on alchohol\legal stuff why can't we have the right to choose which drugs we prefer ourselves?

Tar it proves that cannabis aggrevates heroin addictions in living organisms. cannabis exposed rats were the subject of the study and rats not expose to cannabis were the control. The latter showed a less severe heroin addiction.

Why won't you see that this means nothing to the vast majority of cannibis smokers who don't ever try heroin?