American Pro - Gun Arguments

17HMR

This from a friend of my in the US...

Firearms refresher course -
1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
3. Colt: The original point and click interface.
4. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.
5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?
6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
7. "Free" men do not ask permission to bear arms.
8. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.
9. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.
10. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights reserved.
11. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
12. The 2nd ammendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.
13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.
15. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
16. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive
17. nine one one - government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.
18. Assault is a behavior, not a device.
19. Criminals love gun control -- it makes their jobs safer.
20. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
21. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.
22. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
23. Enforce the "gun control laws" we ALREADY have, don't make more.
24. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
25. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.
26. "A government of the people, by the people, for the people..."

Vegeta

scary

Rew

Thank god we dont have that attitude/culture over here

Vegeta

In Ireland at least we can say for sure that criminals get guns from abroad.

According to Michael Moore's film, Canada has more guns per capita than America. Yet America has a huge number of people shot every year when compared to any other similar country.

Anyone have any idea why?

17HMR

If someone is going to change the title of a thread, they might at least make a comment to that effect within the thread.

I posted this under the neutral title of "Firearms Refresher Course".
It now has a subjective and somewhat pejorative title but is still in my name.

And while I do not subscribe to some of the more militant notions shown I do not regard this US list as "propaganda".

I posted it here to show, somewhat tongue in cheek, the difference in the relationship that exists in the US and Ireland between the shooter and their respective governments.

civdef

This is pro-gun propaganda of course, not gun control propaganda....

newby.204

i found the title to be conflicting if it was to be renamed maybe it should be renamed again

civdef

I agree.

It does serve to show just how different our general cultural views on guns are.

Rew

I renamed it orignally because the orignal title had zero to do with the post as far as I was concened. the current one suits best I think (thx to civdef)

Sparks

I'd hate for anyone arguing for "my side" to be using such... weak bumper stickers as "arguments" mind you.

maglite

does anyone know the no of gun reated deaths in switzerland where every man between 18 -40 odd is in the army res. and bring their gun home and keep it there

Sparks

According to gun-cite.com, in 1994 it was 0.58 per 100,000 for firearms homicide, and 5.61 for firearms suicide; contrasting with 1993's US figures of 3.72 and 7.35 per 100,000. (Switzerland has 7 million citizense, the US, about 258 million). Only 27.2% of swiss homes have firearms; compared with some 39% in the US.

Things to remember though;

• Correlation is not causation
• Neither side of the debate has any scientific study proving their point conclusively, according to the latest evaluation from the National Academy of Science in the US. All studies either have flawed mathematics or flawed data.
• The debate doesn't even arise here. We don't have a second amendment right. A point stated explicitly in the Dail only a fortnight ago by the Minister for Justice over the Firearms Act provisions in the CJB.

whupass

what was the title changed too?

maglite

look at the title that is what it is changes to

whupass

what was it changed to the first time it was changed

Sparks

Something like "scary american gun control propaganda" I think. Does it matter?

17HMR

It was originally called the same as the list title, that is,

"Firearms refresher course"

It was then changed to something like

"Scary American Pro gun control propaganda"

At which point I complained that it had been changed without the person applying the change at least mentioning what had been done in the thread. Seems its the least an editor should do.

Anyway. No problem with mods changing things or deleting them altogether - that's what they are there for. Just asking that they make clear what it is they are doing.

And now its changed again !

But at least this change has been acknowledged

Anyway.
Been done to death at this stage.
Maybe better to delete or lock it.

Clare gunner

Wouldnt take one inch of celluoid that mr Fat boy Moore put on with his Blowing for Columbine opinionary as gospel or as fact in anyway.It is total anti gun Bullst.Check out www.moorelies.com or www.moorewatch.com.Or better still have a read of Micheal Moore is a big fat stupid white man,by David Hardy & Jason Clarke.They go into minute detail about the whole Charlton Heston "over my dead body"speech .

The USA/Canada gun ownership has been proven well wrong as well,partly again Mr Moore's bull.
Switzerland;
The actual military age is 18to 65.Where each household has ,depending on serving personel at least one SIG assault rifle and 1000 rounds on military ball ammo in a sealed container. Also in contrast to the USA,the Swiss in certain Cantons allow it's citizens to purchase without extra paperwork full auto weapons,and encourage the study of gureilla warfare tactics and improvised weapons,as Switzerland has included gureilla warfare into it's national defence plans.Also it has a so caled "hot pursuit"law ,meaning you can still shoot and persue burgulars,etc on your property even when they are running from you.Somthing totally unheard of in the US since the turn of the last centuary.Also they have an automatic LIFE sentence for using any type of firearm,anything from a bananna to a bazooka in a criminal act. Shoot people to your hearts desire in Switzerland,but dont bounce cheques!!! As the old joke goes.
As for the US having a higher gun death rate;
Since the introduction of CWPs the actual death rate is dropping.
The top killers in the US are
Obesity, choking on hot dogs,alcohol misuse,vechicle accidents,domestic appliance accidents,slip&falls, drug misuse,and a bunch of others.Firearms came in number eleven!!!
It depends on who you belive pro or anti gun sides. Be more inclined to the pro gun

whupass

dosen't matter really i was just wondering

civdef

Also it has a so caled "hot pursuit"law ,meaning you can still shoot and persue burgulars,etc on your property even when they are running from you.Somthing totally unheard of in the US since the turn of the last centuary.

Not in Texas!

whupass

really!!!!!!!!!!

weeellllll it is texas so i guess i shouldn't be surprised

macnas

I like the pencil one, v good.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Wouldnt take one inch of celluoid that mr Fat boy Moore put on with his Blowing for Columbine opinionary as gospel or as fact in anyway. It is total anti gun Bullst.

To be fair CG, it's not completely horse hockey. Some things, such as the Canada-US comparison, are actually fairly interesting. Unfortunately, because there is much in there that was either outright biased or completly fabricated, that gets lost.
But then, it's not like the other side ever refrained from that either. How many times did Barrett say their .50 cals have never been used in crimes, when several british soldiers were shot dead with one up North?

I think that that's the actual problem here anyway - there are sides. There shouldn't be sides. You've the NRA on one, IANSA on the other, both paid to maintain their viewpoints without comprimise, and we get stuck in the middle, without a single unbiased objective study with valid maths to show one way or the other how societies best run.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

But then, it's not like the other side ever refrained from that either. How many times did Barrett say their .50 cals have never been used in crimes, when several british soldiers were shot dead with one up North?

I think that that's the actual problem here anyway - there are sides. There shouldn't be sides. You've the NRA on one, IANSA on the other, both paid to maintain their viewpoints without comprimise, and we get stuck in the middle, without a single unbiased objective study with valid maths to show one way or the other how societies best run.

True enough,but as somone said there are lies,damn lies and statisics.
Barrett is telling the truth,a Barrett ASFIK has never been used in a crime in the USA.How did it get to Ireland?Proably bought by some well meaning but numb nutted Irish American thinking they were striking a blow for Irish freedom.We could argue the same for any type of gun made in the USA or anywhere else for that matter.I mean Barretts were used by the Croats,Bosnians,and Kosovars against the Serbs or variations of that little ethnic squabble.Who is the terrorist or freedom fighter there???It is an unfair to blame an inanimate object for the actions of a sentinent beings use or misuse.This is what pisses me off about this sort of debate.Instead of saying Harris and Keybloyd [?]were two teenage rejects who were social misfits brought up by liberal parents who didnt give a toss as to what their little darlings were up to,and aquired for them illegally firearms.But no,it is if all the evil guns didnt exist these two little angels wouldnt have shot up their high school.Seems to be the thing in Western Society.Blame everything and everyone but the actions of the person who comitted the crime.
add on to this warped statistics.Did you know that in these stats in the US "children" are people up to 21 years of age???Some of these children are well experianced 19 year old gang bangers.Hardly the innocent little lamb going to blow himself away with daddys carelessly left around loaded 44mag.

shc1

Did you hear about the crime emergency in Washington DC?
Our media stops short of saying you can’t have a firearm in DC, crazy Americans.

BTW in Texas you can’t shoot someone in the back.
But you can shoot em in the legs till they get curious.

Clare gunner

shc1 wrote:

Did you hear about the crime emergency in Washington DC?
Our media stops short of saying you can’t have a firearm in DC, crazy Americans.

BTW in Texas you can’t shoot someone in the back.
But you can shoot em in the legs till they get curious.

Ironic and weird somthings in the US. We have the greatest gun right enshrined in the constitution in DC,yet DC is the most restrictive city in the US on owning a firearm,with the highest gun deaths by illegal firearms.

We promote freedom and democracy worldwide,and try to restrict our own citizens at every chance.
We promote freedom of the press and expression,yet have God botherers making millions of dollars denouncing playboy mags and the local lapdancing bar.
We allow people to join our armed forces at 18,allow them to use leathl weapons,blow things up,play with multi million dollar hardware for the benefit of their country.Yet dont allow them when they are out on leave to drink a beer until they are 21,or own a personal handgun.
Yet then in law these kids can be charged with adult crimes,eventhough if they are under 21 they are classified as children.
And to crown it all,the best burbon in the world [Jack Daniels] cant be drunk in it's hometown of Lynchburg Tenessee,as it is a "dry" county!!
The USA, land of liberty,depending on how old you are and where you live there. :eek:

trixter

Vegeta wrote:

In Ireland at least we can say for sure that criminals get guns from abroad.

According to Michael Moore's film, Canada has more guns per capita than America. Yet America has a huge number of people shot every year when compared to any other similar country.

Anyone have any idea why?

Moore lied that is why. The numbers he inflated were about 10x what the UN (based off the FBIs uniform crime reports) state the national gun death rate is in america. The figures that Moore quoted were 2x what the CDC (center for disease control) reported as well. And the CDC includes people killed overseas that are buried in America in their numbers.

Moore got caught telling at least 59 lies in Bowling for Columbine, my personal favourite is when Clinton (not heston as moore indicated) went to flint michigan 48 hours after a shooting. Moore enlarged text to cover up Clintons name and the voice over said it was Heston.

Just becuase its in a movie doesnt mean you should believe it.

Further, most of the shootings in America are not done by lawful gun owners, they are done by people who bought the gun illegally on the street.

There are over 300 million guns in America, there are about 300 million people in America. Far more people are killed by heart disease (50%), cancer (17%), infection (#3 american killer), adult onset diabetes (#4 american killer), automobiles even kill more americans than guns. Firearms are WAY down on the list.

trixter

civdef wrote:

This is pro-gun propaganda of course, not gun control propaganda....

Gun control means using both hands (that one was missing from the list).

The reality, from an American perspective is that most of what is said there isnt how most people here feel. I know this becuase I have lived in fairly rural areas most of my life where guns are seen as tools. I also know that in the urban areas where they are less useful tools (although statistically speaking in America you are far more likely to scare off a burglar than shoot him) there is the larger anti-gun movement.

Note the anti-gun people tend to think that a grocery store is the same thing as hunting, you go in, you get meat, whats the difference right? They also dont understand that in places like where I live there are mountain lions which are fully capable of killing adults, and animal control can take hours to show up (no offense to my aunt who did do animal control in this county). Its a big county, its got a lot of slow roads, and with lower populations there isnt a need (or money to pay for) a lot of animal control people. There are also poisonous snakes and hospitals are often more than 30 minutes away (it takes 20-30 minutes for an ambulance to show up as well, children bit by rattlesnakes can die in that time period).

In rural areas where there isnt a large anti-gun movement these are the more typical views towards guns. They are tools, which are needed for various aspects of life. Granted the climate is different in the major cities, where you dont have some of these concerns but do have others.

The people in rural areas take comments like the original post largely as a joke, which I believe that is how it was intended. The people in the urban areas here I cant comment on much.

trixter

Clare gunner wrote:

Switzerland;
The actual military age is 18to 65.

In the US every "able bodied male age 17-49" upto 65 if they were previously in the regular military (females in the national guard were added during the clinton years) are forced into the militia per federal law.

For the stat that only 39% of homes have firearms I was kinda suprised about that there is a 1:1 ratio of firearms to people, but then my father has several rifles which were collected over the years, even the .22 I first learned on 20 years ago. He went through a series of larger bore rifles when hunting elk deciding which one he prefered best for that task. So I guess it works out somehow. Maybe I shouldnt have been suprised, I thought it was closer to 50% though

Vegeta

trixter wrote:

Moore lied that is why. The numbers he inflated were about 10x what the UN (based off the FBIs uniform crime reports) state the national gun death rate is in america. The figures that Moore quoted were 2x what the CDC (center for disease control) reported as well. And the CDC includes people killed overseas that are buried in America in their numbers.

Moore got caught telling at least 59 lies in Bowling for Columbine, my personal favourite is when Clinton (not heston as moore indicated) went to flint michigan 48 hours after a shooting. Moore enlarged text to cover up Clintons name and the voice over said it was Heston.

Just becuase its in a movie doesnt mean you should believe it.

Further, most of the shootings in America are not done by lawful gun owners, they are done by people who bought the gun illegally on the street.

There are over 300 million guns in America, there are about 300 million people in America. Far more people are killed by heart disease (50%), cancer (17%), infection (#3 american killer), adult onset diabetes (#4 american killer), automobiles even kill more americans than guns. Firearms are WAY down on the list.

I am not challenging what you are saying but do you have a link where i can read in up on this stuff

trixter

Vegeta wrote:

I am not challenging what you are saying but do you have a link where i can read in up on this stuff

They have been posted on a previous page. I didnt realize that when I replied becuase I hadnt read enough of the thread to find out that others posted at least 2 urls that talked about it and suggested a book that also talked about this stuff.

Vegeta

trixter wrote:

They have been posted on a previous page. I didnt realize that when I replied becuase I hadnt read enough of the thread to find out that others posted at least 2 urls that talked about it and suggested a book that also talked about this stuff.

one of those sites has closed up for good and the other is a bit of a mess.

I was hoping you'd have links to the FBI reports so i could read them or something. I'll do a little searching on the net but if you had em handy that'd be cool

trixter

Vegeta wrote:

one of those sites has closed up for good and the other is a bit of a mess.

I was hoping you'd have links to the FBI reports so i could read them or something. I'll do a little searching on the net but if you had em handy that'd be cool

off the cuff, I dont have any handy but did find this http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fidc9397.pdf

That is a bit dated, and moore picked a particularly high year. His numbers seemed to be based off the CDC which uses funeral directors reports in addition to police reports, medical examiners etc. The odd thing about funeral directors, and why I think the CDC shouldnt be allowed to do this, is becuase by law if there is a shooting in america the police are required to investigate, if there is a death they investigate more. The only instance where a funeral director will state the cause of death (and most arent medical doctors so they have no real ability to determine cause of death anyway) is when they are killed out of the country and shipped back for burial.

Moore picked a year that was particularly high, I think it had something to do with soldiers who were killed in bosnia or kosovo or whatever. As a result they werent killed the way moore presents it. I know it was about the time that stuff was going on, not sure if it was that year specifically.

I do know that the department of justice (who the FBI is one part of, and who feeds the UN its stats) has a WAY lower number.

SteveS

There are plenty of pro-gun arguments that can be made without pithy sayings. While I may agree with some of them, I think they do little to advance the cause of gun rights.

shc1

While we’re putting down the US,
One of many things that helped the 94 assault weapons ban was this statement.
X amount of children are killed every year by firearms.
The somewhat gray area is many of these children are up to 21 years of age.
Street gangs and or drug wars we’re left out as well.