A Devil's Advocate with Freewill

Zillah

After an as of yet unconcluded discussion with a Christian elsewhere, I was pondering something.


God has omniscience and is omnipotent, according to Christians. He also transcends space and time. So, surely from the moment God created the universe and everything in it, he knowingly dictated every last detail of the universe right to the end of time.

How can a Christian then maintain we have freewill? Did God ever remove us from his power?

I ask here because I'd rather discuss it with a Devil's Advocate rather than try and tangle with a faith bound believer.

Dades

Hmmm.

Problem is - a faith bound believer will give you a perspective. For most here the question is kind of irrelevant - as people don't believe that God is responsible for anything, because he doesn't exist.

Though the omniscience and omnipotent thing does on the face of it throw the "freewill" thing out of kilter.

Zombrex

Zillah wrote:

Did God ever remove us from his power?

According to Christians he did. Are decision making process is our own, but God can punish us if we make the wrong decisions.

Not sure how that works with the law of cause and effect, but then most Christians who take these things seriously tend not to consider scientific logic

Zillah

Wicknight wrote:

According to Christians he did. Are decision making process is our own, but God can punish us if we make the wrong decisions.

But how is it our own if he made it, while knowing exactly how it would turn out? At the instant he created your brain, and the factors that would shape you, he knew that what he was doing would result in you doing what you were going to do...

Zillah

The Atheist wrote:

Problem is - a faith bound believer will give you a perspective. For most here the question is kind of irrelevant - as people don't believe that God is responsible for anything, because he doesn't exist.

Well, I'm not looking for an individual perspective really. I'm just wondering if the Vatican has an answer to what appears to be a glaring hole in their philosophy.

There's also the fact that I happen to be banned from the Christianity forum because of an indiscretion from a few years ago...

Scofflaw

As far as I know, the Christian position is that there is no conflict. God does not dictate your actions, but he does know what you will do.

This is very like watching my 2-year old daughter tear up Playdoh and throw it around the room. I know that that's what she will do with Playdoh on being handed it, but she does it of her own free will. In my case, being less omniscient than God, there is a small chance that I am wrong...

On the other hand, I find it completely impossible to reconcile this with the idea of eternal punishment. I don't hand my daughter any Playdoh unless I don't mind picking it up, and I certainly couldn't punish her for something I can so easily foresee.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

Zillah wrote:

God has omniscience and is omnipotent, according to Christians. He also transcends space and time.

Just thinking - who said he is all this?

The bible couldn't have said he transcends space and time - they had no concept of "space" for a start when it was written. So maybe the biblical God works in real time, but can interfere where he deems it appropriate.

Perhaps it's over zealous Christians who have given him the extra powers that create the hole in the philosophy.

Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

This is very like watching my 2-year old daughter tear up Playdoh and throw it around the room. I know that that's what she will do with Playdoh on being handed it, but she does it of her own free will. In my case, being less omniscient than God, there is a small chance that I am wrong...

Its not quite the same. You didn't create your daughter and every facet of her being, knowing full well that what you were doing was going to make her as she is.

The Atheist wrote:

Just thinking - who said he is all this?

The bible couldn't have said he transcends space and time - they had no concept of "space" for a start when it was written.

Well, the bible says he is all-knowing and all-powerful(...I presume...). Saying he transcends space and time is just putting that in a more literal/modern context.

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote:

According to Christians he did. Are decision making process is our own, but God can punish us if we make the wrong decisions.

Huh, so thats free will? Not in my books.

Not sure how that works with the law of cause and effect, but then most Christians who take these things seriously tend not to consider scientific logic

Not really sure of the point here. If you mean what I think you do, and if one expands cause and effect to mean the Buddhist perspective, then as I understand it Gods don't exist. They cannot since they to would be subject to the same Law and any punishment they doled out would in turn open them to some type of retribution. In Layman's terms, if god punished me he would be making a bad cause that he would have to answer to.

Zillah

I doubt Christianity accepts Karma, and if it did, I think they'd say God was above Karma, or was Karma or something.

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote:

Its not quite the same. You didn't create your daughter and every facet of her being, knowing full well that what you were doing was going to make her as she is.

Actually, it's exactly the same. Even if I created my daughter knowing exactly what she was going to be like, and what choices she would make, I am not thereby constraining her free will to make those choices.

God knowing what choice will be made, in advance, is not the same as God constraining that choice. Only constraint prevents the operation of free will - if God does not constrain you, he is not interfering with the operation of free will.

Look at it another way. Yesterday, you made free will choices. Looking back on yesterday, you see those choices as made. Did that constrain your free will to make those choices?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

Zillah wrote:

Well, the bible says he is all-knowing and all-powerful(...I presume...). Saying he transcends space and time is just putting that in a more literal/modern context.

I think it's upping the power quotient.

You could be all-knowing in that you are in control of a long term plan that cannot be altered. That isn't to say you transcend "time" in that there is no such thing as the future or the past.

In such circumstances what we as puny humans do is still undecided. It may be irrelevant, but still "free".

robindch

> God has omniscience and is omnipotent, according to Christians.

Epicurus wrote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

> He also transcends space and time.

(trying not to look like I'm only stirring things), what exactly does "transcend" mean?

Zillah

robindch wrote:

(trying not to look like I'm only stirring things), what exactly does "transcend" mean?

Uh, "not constrained by"? Or better maybe, "Not subject to"?

Scofflaw wrote:

Even if I created my daughter knowing exactly what she was going to be like, and what choices she would make, I am not thereby constraining her free will to make those choices.

You're leaving out the part where you dictate everything she does by choosing to create her a certain way.

Having absolute knowledge of what will happen as a result of your actions and having no limit to what those actions can be, is the exact same as dictating every action as it happens.

God knowing what choice will be made, in advance, is not the same as God constraining that choice.

Yes, it is. Its the exact same. Remember cause and effect. God does A, knowing it will cause B, where B is the "decision" your daughter makes. You daughter decides to do A using her decision making process, which is an extention of her genes and life so far, all of which is created by God.

Before God made the universe, there was nothing else. Hence, from the moment the universe began, he knowingly began a chain of cause and effect that was absolutely within his power.

Crucifix

Wicknight wrote:

Not sure how that works with the law of cause and effect, but then most Christians who take these things seriously tend not to consider scientific logic

I suppose that's why God invented the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.;)

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote:

You're leaving out the part where you dictate everything she does by choosing to create her a certain way.

Having absolute knowledge of what will happen as a result of your actions and having no limit to what those actions can be, is the exact same as dictating every action as it happens.

Yes, it is. Its the exact same. Remember cause and effect. God does A, knowing it will cause B, where B is the "decision" your daughter makes. You daughter decides to do A using her decision making process, which is an extention of her genes and life so far, all of which is created by God.

Before God made the universe, there was nothing else. Hence, from the moment the universe began, he knowingly began a chain of cause and effect that was absolutely within his power.

This is still not the case. Even though God knows all, created all, and therefore, as you say, in effect created every action that you took, so that it is completely fore-ordained, your free will is not constrained.

You are assuming that given any choice A or B, you are constrained to choose B because it is fore-ordained. This is not the case - you can choose either, but you will have chosen B, freely, and this is known to God.

Now, you can claim that this is only the illusion of free-will, but if so, it is an illusion that, as long as we do not know what God knows, is so perfect that there is no difference. Only by knowing that God knows what we will do is the illusion broken.

I don't really expect people to get this argument, since you have to assume God is outside Time, and take the same vantage point yourself. In essence, all I'm saying is that if God transcends Time, he would see it as no more than another dimension like length - and from that point of view, all decisions, no matter how freely taken, have been taken.

However, as I thought I had indicated, this is not free will in the sense the Christian uses it to suggest our responsibility for our sins. God, foreknowing our choices, created us to freely make them - his the responsibility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Zillah wrote:

I doubt Christianity accepts Karma, and if it did, I think they'd say God was above Karma, or was Karma or something.

Correct. We had a very long debate in Christianity and Buddhism Forums on the nature of Karma vs Grace. They are complete opposites. To a Buddhist, if there were a God he/she would be subject to the same laws of Karma that us poor mortals are. To a Christian, since God made us, he/she also made all the rules and Laws concerning humanity. I do not see this position ever being resolved since to accept Karma mean to accept that there is a power or Law that is over God.

Dades

Scofflaw wrote:

This is still not the case. Even though God knows all, created all, and therefore, as you say, in effect created every action that you took, so that it is completely fore-ordained, your free will is not constrained.

You are assuming that given any choice A or B, you are constrained to choose B because it is fore-ordained. This is not the case - you can choose either, but you will have chosen B, freely, and this is known to God.

Now, you can claim that this is only the illusion of free-will, but if so, it is an illusion that, as long as we do not know what God knows, is so perfect that there is no difference. Only by knowing that God knows what we will do is the illusion broken.

Good points.

But from a Christian perspective even if they go some way to explain this "free will" idea, it then seems somewhat pointless to send your only son to be tortured and killed for sins that you already know are going to be committed.

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

Good points.

But from a Christian perspective even if they go some way to explain this "free will" idea, it then seems somewhat pointless to send your only son to be tortured and killed for sins that you already know are going to be committed.

Sure, but that's because they're just making this stuff up...


cordially,
Scofflaw

Crucifix

Weren't there some points where Jesus foretold the future? Peter and the cock crowing, and possible knowledge of his own eventual betrayl and death?

Zillah

Sure...according to the book. Of course, at the time of writing, the authors already believed him to be God so...

Asiaprod

Crucifix wrote:

Weren't there some points where Jesus foretold the future? Peter and the cock crowing, and possible knowledge of his own eventual betrayl and death?

Yes, but according to this new Gospel of Judas he arranged the whole thing himself so if true he could hardly be credited with foretelling the future, just forward planning!