2/4 KK faces allin

willis

2/4 Tribeca, I open to 14 utg, villain makes it 34 on bb(he is tight, not shown any hands).

Should I be 3betting here? I seem to be nearly always flat calling these reraises with big hands(AA/KK/AK etc)...is this a leak in my game?

Anyways I just call, flop is J108 rainbow...he insta pushes $243. Its not a bluff for definite. My move? Has not 3betting preflop made my decision much harder now? If i 3bet and he pushes can I really fold? Remember he is tight

ChipLdr

if the guy is tight as you say and throws $243 into a $70 pot he definately has what he thinks is the best hand so i'd say AA or JJ.

3 betting probably wont achieve much preflop because if he reraises again OOP its safe to say its KK+ and if he flat calls we would have to presume its at worse JJ+ with the small % thats its AK judging by the tight read you have gotten from him.

3 betting is only good here if you definately know he will call with hands like JJ-QQ-Ak all of which we are a strong favorite against. So we are losing to AA,JJ ahead of QQ and AK(which i def dont think he has) so its a fold for me.

ianmc38

3 betting preflop isn't great because it overdefines your hand. You're telling him that you have KK/AA and he can then play perfectly postflop.

I can't see him open pushing JJ/TT/88 here.

Alot of open pushes like this that i've seen recently have been drawing hands but I can't imagine him reraising from the blinds with QK or A9.

The made straight can be ruled out as if he's tight he's not reraising oop with 79 or Q9.

My guess here is QQ/99/AK/KK/AA though I'd be surprised if he open pushed with KK/AA.

Also, I'd be surprised if a tighty reraised 99/AK oop.

Gholimoli

flat calling here is fine and 3 betting is fine as well.
it depends how well you play post flop.
if you 3 bet and he shoves then you can be fairly certain your KK is no good as not many ppl 4 bet with out AA.

flat calling has the advantage of him bettin in to you with QQ,JJ on a low flop on the other hand he will not put any money in with AK,AQ on a missed flop which he may have done preflop.
in general i would like the get as much as i can in preflop with AA,KK.every now and then your KK will run into AA but far more often you will get QQ,JJ here to pay you off .
reraise pre flop and even if you get it all in pre flop and he has AA you havent made that much of a mistake.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

3 betting preflop isn't great because it overdefines your hand. You're telling him that you have KK/AA and he can then play perfectly postflop.

this is not a problem as long as he is paying for it.
for example if you raise 20,villain makes it 60 then you make it 250 then if villain calls we dont care if out hand screams AA.as long as he is paying the prise for us to define our hand then its fine.
the reason why we dont want our hand defined is the impplied odds we offer opponents if they knew what we had.but even if villain knows exactly what we have then he either has or has not got the odds/implied odds of calling our raise and if our raise is big enough so that he does not have the implied odds then we dont care if he knows what we have or not.
to clarify :
Hero: 300 with AA
villain:300 with 88
blinds :1/2



now we assume that no matter what flops hero will push on the flop with his AA.
we also assume that villain will only call if he flops his 8.

hero makes it 8
villain makes it 20.

now actions is back to hero is he is thinking how to reraise this.
if hero makes it 60 here then villain has to pay 40(the raise) to win 340(whats in the pot now+hero's remaining stack) .

340/40 =8.5:1 thats the odds villain is getting.
i think the odds of hil flopping a set is around 8:1 so he is getting the odds to call .

now say hero makes it 100 instead of 60.in this case villain needs to call 80 to win the same amount:
340/80=4.25:1
so as you can see he is not getting the odds to call.
in the second case we dont care if the bigger raise defines our and because even if villain can put us on the exact hand he is making mistake by calling so we are just concerned with bulding the pot while not offering him correct odds to call.

i dont even know if im making sense up there but it makes sense in my head.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

this is not a problem as long as he is paying for it.
for example if you raise 20,villain makes it 60 then you make it 250 then if villain calls we dont care if out hand screams AA.as long as he is paying the prise for us to define our hand then its fine.
the reason why we dont want our hand defined is the impplied odds we offer opponents if they knew what we had.but even if villain knows exactly what we have then he either has or has not got the odds/implied odds of calling our raise and if our raise is big enough so that he does not have the implied odds then we dont care if he knows what we have or not.
to clarify :
Hero: 300 with AA
villain:300 with 88
blinds :1/2



now we assume that no matter what flops hero will push on the flop with his AA.
we also assume that villain will only call if he flops his 8.

hero makes it 8
villain makes it 20.

now actions is back to hero is he is thinking how to reraise this.
if hero makes it 60 here then villain has to pay 40(the raise) to win 340(whats in the pot now+hero's remaining stack) .

340/40 =8.5:1 thats the odds villain is getting.
i think the odds of hil flopping a set is around 8:1 so he is getting the odds to call .

now say hero makes it 100 instead of 60.in this case villain needs to call 80 to win the same amount:
340/80=4.25:1
so as you can see he is not getting the odds to call.
in the second case we dont care if the bigger raise defines our and because even if villain can put us on the exact hand he is making mistake by calling so we are just concerned with bulding the pot while not offering him correct odds to call.

i dont even know if im making sence up there but it makes sense in my head.

Some punctuation would be nice! Absolute gobbledeegook.

I'm interested in what you've said above regarding a preflop 4-bet. You say it allows us to get away from AA as noone 4-bets without it (i don't fully agree with this point of view) . How do you propose that we get paid off by QQ/JJ? QQ/JJ now must put us on KK/AA so I can't see us getting paid by either very often.

Ten high flop after a smooth call we stack JJ/QQ. 3-betting won't do this. JJ/QQ will often fold to a 3-bet preflop as well.

Also if you think 4-betting is reserved for AA then surely you're opening up a hole where you can be lightly 4-bet more regularly?

Ste05

I think we've been over this one many times before but 3 Betting here minimises wins from AK, QQ, JJ, and worse, but it does save a few BB's against AA and certainly isn't a good play. Reverse Implied odds always there no matter what you have and you shouldn't be so afraid of them. Just recognise them and don't pay off when obvious draws hit, or someone bets like they have trips.

willis

ianmc38 wrote:

I can't see him open pushing JJ/TT/88 here.

My guess here is QQ/99/AK/KK/AA though I'd be surprised if he open pushed with KK/AA.

Also, I'd be surprised if a tighty reraised 99/AK oop.

Ian, regarding open pushing with a set here. Hand vs Oliviastone(definite winner), he is sb, he raised i called, flop is J98, he open pushed with 99( i had 88 ). I have seen plenty of open pushing with sets so its not that unlikely imo. Also open pushing with AA/KK wouldnt suprise me either.

He is tight but not a total rock, and is aggressive when he enters pots so 99/ak would come into range. I should have clarified that in OP.

I folded, asked if aces, he said 99. No reason not to believe him, his play makes some sense.

This 3betting thing is tough. By just flat calling I think we are giving ourselves tougher decisions later. For example, I raise with KK, face a reraise, and just call. The flop is rags, he bets...do i raise now? Or do I wait? If I raise now and he 3bets we have no info as to his hand...due to our preflop call. We do know he has a big hand but we dont know how big, as many villains 3bet this flop with JJ/QQ/KK aswell as AA obvioulsy. So if we face the 3bet on the flop...how do we play vs a solid player?

ianmc38

Pushing $240 with a set/KK/AA into a $70 is horrific, though it would proably be +EV on me as I'd be in the "he wouldn't open push with a set" mindframe

99 is a strange reraise from a tightish player oop, especially after an UTG raise.

If the flop is rags and he 3 bets then I'm going to the felt. if he has AA, embrace the variance. Personally I prefer to call the flop and raise the turn.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Some punctuation would be nice! Absolute gobbledeegook.

I'm interested in what you've said above regarding a preflop 4-bet. You say it allows us to get away from AA as noone 4-bets without it (i don't fully agree with this point of view) . How do you propose that we get paid off by QQ/JJ? QQ/JJ now must put us on KK/AA so I can't see us getting paid by either very often.

Ten high flop after a smooth call we stack JJ/QQ. 3-betting won't do this. JJ/QQ will often fold to a 3-bet preflop as well.

Also if you think 4-betting is reserved for AA then surely you're opening up a hole where you can be lightly 4-bet more regularly?

“I'm interested in what you've said above regarding a preflop 4-bet. You say it allows us to get away from AA as noone 4-bets without it (i don't fully agree with this point of view) .


I didn’t say 3 bet it so you can get away from AA if you get 4 better but that is in away an added advantage.
When you play on a table for a while then you know which player will 4 bet will less than KK,AA and which wouldn’t .but you I honestly think its safe to assign that range to 4 betting preflop as I don’t think many ppl have the guts to 4 bet with out it.

“How do you propose that we get paid off by QQ/JJ? QQ/JJ now must put us on KK/AA so I can't see us getting paid by either very often.”

Now you say that 4 betting does not necessarily mean AA,KK but then your saying if we 3 bet then villain will know we have AA,KK and drop QQ,JJ ?
I don’t think your typical villain drop QQ/JJ here too often at all. what is most likely to happen is you will get called and get checked to on a low flop. they will then call your bets as long as the board is not overly scary .
Also an opponent that is villain to drop QQ/JJ here is not very likely to get stacked on a T high flop.
Also AK(often),and AQ(not often at all) may call a 3bet preflop hoping to get lucky on the flop but drop it on the flop if missed.

willis

ianmc38 wrote:

Pushing $240 with a set/KK/AA into a $70 is horrific, though it would proably be +EV on me as I'd be in the "he wouldn't open push with a set" mindframe

99 is a strange reraise from a tightish player oop, especially after an UTG raise.

If the flop is rags and he 3 bets then I'm going to the felt. if he has AA, embrace the variance. Personally I prefer to call the flop and raise the turn.

I agree pushing is horrible play but it is used. yes 99 i strange, he must have just got an adrenalin rush to the head, the guy folded every hand for the next 30mins nearly!

So Ian you call flop, raise turn, he pushes...YOU?. Are you always going to felt with KK on a raggy board? obvioulsy if deepstacked then maybe you can fold but with 100-150bbs are you always going to the felt with KK on rag boards?

ianmc38

willis wrote:

I agree pushing is horrible play but it is used. yes 99 i strange, he must have just got an adrenalin rush to the head, the guy folded every hand for the next 30mins nearly!

So Ian you call flop, raise turn, he pushes...YOU?. Are you always going to felt with KK on a raggy board? obvioulsy if deepstacked then maybe you can fold but with 100-150bbs are you always going to the felt with KK on rag boards?

If the board is something like 3478 then I'm usually happy to get 100BB all in with KK (based on the preflop action). If he has AA, then fair enough. I'll need some pretty serious notes about a player before I laydown KK on raggy boards.

Edit: On a sidenote, I recently lost two buyins playing live with KK, getting it allin preflop against AA.

Ste05

willis wrote:

Are you always going to felt with KK on a raggy board? obvioulsy if deepstacked then maybe you can fold but with 100-150bbs are you always going to the felt with KK on rag boards?

I pretty much am here. It would depend on how the hand played out, but this is how it maximises returns from QQ/JJ, you are meant to lose alot in a cash game with KK v AA. It's just the Poker Variance Gods playing their wicked game...

Lafortezza

What were the stacks before the hand? Is this full table or 6max?

willis

6max(how u guys play full ring i never know!), villain had 290, I covered

Ste05

willis wrote:

6max(how u guys play full ring i never know!), villain had 290, I covered

By the sounds of things on here, it's just me and Laf who play Full ring. :rolleyes: It seems like 6-max is the new Black...

willis

On Tribeca, for most levels there are 3times as many 6max games running than there are full ring.

ianmc38

HE - I play 6 max only.

PLO - I play 6 max mostly and a little bit of full ring.

O8 - Mostly full ring due to the lack of shorthanded games on Tribeca.