Tear me apart (Cash Game)

FullOf..IT

Hi,

Ive been messing about with the .50/1 6 max on party for the last week and im quite disappointed with my return. Add to this the fact that i have eliminated the biggest leak that i thought i had, paying people off when i knew i was beat.

My Pokertracker stats are...

Hands: 3,415
Vol put $ in pot: 35.81%
Att to steal blinds: 20.18%
Won $ wsf: 32.41%
Went to SD: 22.99%
Won at showdown: 56.54%
PR Raise: 9.69%
AgF: 1.64

And the killer stat...BB/100 hands = 0.9!?!:eek:

Can anyone see any obvious leaks?

Let the dissection begin....

ianmc38

You're quite loose preflop, maybe too loose, ie you're seeing too many flops with sub par hands. 35% is very high unles you play extremely well postflop.

Can you post your VPIP positional stats? It should be higher on the button and one from the button and should be less UTG and UTG+1.

Aggression is quite low. Mine's 4-8 on every street.

FullOf..IT

thanks for the reply ian.

the % you are on about (32%) is actually the % that i won when i seen a flop. Actual is 56%.

My raising stats are

BTN: 20%
1: 12%
2: 11%
3: 8%
bb: 2%
sb: 2%

ianmc38

Whats your VPIP stats from position. I edited the other post when i noticed the WSD% stat was wrong.

ocallagh

ianmc38 wrote:

You're quite loose preflop, maybe too loose.

Can you post your VPIP positional stats? It should be higher on the button and one from the button and should be less UTG and UTG+.

Aggression is quite low. Mine's 4-8 on every street.

well Won $ WSF (when saw flop) should be a bit lower than Won $
at showdown, but still won $ WSF should be a bit higher than 32%. Could be that you're not giving up enough hands on the flop. As someone pointed out a few weeks back, raising does not give you a right to the pot. Your Won $ at showdown is fine so maybe you're getting involved with a lot of marginal hands on the flop and not letting go till the turn??

could you expand your AgF? eg Flop: 1.9, Turn 2.2, River 2.6

also, 3k hands is not really enough and if you could exclude one or two major losses your BB/100 might not look so bad. you really need 20k hands

luckylucky

Hmmm good analysis by all methinks, I presume this is the 0.5/1 NL game we're talking about here.

I had a look back through my own stats to compare, showing mine may help full of it as well as myself

I have limited this to 4 to 6 players in any no limit or pot limit game of hold em.

Hands: 22,104
Vol put $ in pot: 24.78%
Att to steal blinds: 22.21%
Won $ wsf: 42.5%
Went to SD: 18.29%
Won at showdown: 42.49%
PR Raise: 11.92%
AgF: 6.02
AG Flop 7.22
AG Turn 5.92
Ag River 3.56

And my BB/100 = 4.88
My raising stats are

BTN: 12.11%
1: 13.5%
2: 12.48%
3: 9.8%
bb: 9.91%
sb: 12.86%

I'll be honest this is the most I have ever disected my stats but as I have mentioned I may be going pro and while 4.88 BB/H is not bad I'm not totally happy with it.

So while we're sharing information, I'll give you my thoughts on both sets of stats, I think the comments so far on where FullOf..IT has gone wrong are bang on so I hope the criticisms of mine will be just as accurate too.

You are definitely playing too many hands pre flop
In no limit poker you gotta dump trashy hands like KTo, J9 etc. without a second thought unless you are on a steal or defending a steal perhaps. Even hands like KQ, AT I'm wary of and will defo fold early pos in full ring game in SH it depends utg might even fold em!


I have some further comments then
FullOf..IT raises just this much from the blinds
bb: 2%
sb: 2%

while I am a far tighter player pre-flop well in terms of calling and I'm even thinking 24.78% might be a bit loose, I don't let people run over me while I'm in the blinds I'm raising this much

bb: 9.91%
sb: 12.86%

I'm not sure if my percentages are truly good or not but I think full of it u r defo too tight in ur blinds! TIME TO FIGHT BACK DUDE

Now time for me to criticise myself!
This is where I think I'm doing something majorly wrong
Won $ wsf: 42.5%
Won at showdown: 42.49%

WTF! This looks appaling
This looks like once Im on the flop I'm not leaving go enough on turn big style... and could be the biggest leak in my game besides playing when I'm half pissed or knackered of course! - Going to have to cut out that BS if I go pro.

Another stat I found kinda interesting was I actually raise more from cutoff than from the button - hmmm - I'm even inclined to think this is not necessarily a bad stat as people expect the raise from the button and a raise from cutoff can look more creditable. What do people think

Also AgF: 6.02 -
AG Flop 7.22
AG Turn 5.92
Ag River 3.56
I'm not a Swede honest I'm Irish! - is this maybe a little too psycho!

I reckon 10 BB/100 is realistically achievable in no limit if you are playing it right.
So there is work to be done!

ocallagh

luckylucky wrote:

Hmmm good analysis by all methinks, I presume this is the 0.5/1 NL game we're talking about here.

I had a look back through my own stats to compare, showing mine may help full of it as well as myself

I have limited this to 4 to 6 players in any no limit or pot limit game of hold em.

Hands: 22,104
Vol put $ in pot: 24.78%
Att to steal blinds: 22.21%
Won $ wsf: 42.5%
Went to SD: 18.29%
Won at showdown: 42.49% (too low - should be 50 or above)
PR Raise: 11.92%
AgF: 6.02
AG Flop 7.22 (i think this is very high)
AG Turn 5.92 (ditto)
Ag River 3.56 (ditto)

And my BB/100 = 4.88
My raising stats are

BTN: 12.11%
1: 13.5%
2: 12.48%
3: 9.8% (this is quite high compared to your button raise %)
bb: 9.91%
sb: 12.86%

I'll be honest this is the most I have ever disected my stats but as I have mentioned I may be going pro and while 4.88 BB/H is not bad I'm not totally happy with it.

So while we're sharing information, I'll give you my thoughts on both sets of stats, I think the comments so far on where FullOf..IT has gone wrong are bang on so I hope the criticisms of mine will be just as accurate too.

You are definitely playing too many hands pre flop
In no limit poker you gotta dump trashy hands like KTo, J9 etc. without a second thought unless you are on a steal or defending a steal perhaps. Even hands like KQ, AT I'm wary of and will defo fold early pos in full ring game in SH it depends utg might even fold em!


I have some further comments then
FullOf..IT raises just this much from the blinds
bb: 2%
sb: 2%

while I am a far tighter player pre-flop well in terms of calling and I'm even thinking 24.78% might be a bit loose, I don't let people run over me while I'm in the blinds I'm raising this much (i think 24.78 is fine)

bb: 9.91%
sb: 12.86%

I'm not sure if my percentages are truly good or not but I think full of it u r defo too tight in ur blinds! TIME TO FIGHT BACK DUDE

Now time for me to criticise myself!
This is where I think I'm doing something majorly wrong
Won $ wsf: 42.5%
Won at showdown: 42.49%

WTF! This looks appaling
This looks like once Im on the flop I'm not leaving go enough on turn big style... and could be the biggest leak in my game besides playing when I'm half pissed or knackered of course! - Going to have to cut out that BS if I go pro.

Another stat I found kinda interesting was I actually raise more from cutoff than from the button - hmmm - I'm even inclined to think this is not necessarily a bad stat as people expect the raise from the button and a raise from cutoff can look more creditable. What do people think

Also AgF: 6.02 -
AG Flop 7.22
AG Turn 5.92
Ag River 3.56
I'm not a Swede honest I'm Irish! - is this maybe a little too psycho! (i think these are too high! - players can probably trap quite easily against u.. might be a reason your W$ at showdown is low. )

I reckon 10 BB/100 is realistically achievable in no limit if you are playing it right.
So there is work to be done!

in summary i think you need to raise less UTG, UTG+1, and raise more on the button. Do you overbet the pot a lot? if so i think u should bet 3/4 pot or pot more.. while u price people out of draws the way you play you give others great implied odds by setting traps!

I am no expert at stats so take what i say with a pinch of salt etc..

My stats are below. My aggression factor is very low.

8k hands 6max (4 to 6 players)

VPIP 29.92% (too loose maybe)
Att. to Steal Blinds: 22.08%
Won $ when saw flop: 40.97%
BB/100: 8.08
Went to showdown (when saw flop): 27%
Won $ at showdown: 55.85%
Raise Pre-Flop: 10.36%
AgF: 1.93 f, 1.77 t, 2.13 r (ridiculously low compared to some people...! and i dont have the checkbox "Include Pre-flop numbers..." checked...)

PF raises:
Button: 18.44
1: 15.89
2: 10.61
3: 5.73
BB: 4.44
SB: 5.90


I have a SLAP rating in Poker Tracker which I hate (Semi loose-aggressive/passive... ugh)

ianmc38

My stats are as follows (over 25k hands @ 0.50/1 - 2/4). I'd like to see my Omaha results as it's been going very well.

VPIP: 30.8% (quite loose)
Att. to Steal Blinds: 22.46%
Won when saw flop: 39.98
Went to showdown (when saw flop): 25.73
Won $ at showdown: 51.42
Preflop raise: 12.61
BB/100: 14.29
AgF: 3.8 f, 3.2 t, 3.46 r (thought these were higher)

PF raises:
Button: 17.21
1: 15.45
2: 11.25
3: 11.10
BB: 8.23
SB: 10.01

luckylucky

ianmc38 wrote:

My stats are as follows (over 25k hands @ 0.50/1 - 2/4). I'd like to see my Omaha results as it's been going very well.

VPIP: 30.8% (quite loose)
Att. to Steal Blinds: 22.46%
Won when saw flop: 39.98
Went to showdown (when saw flop): 25.73
Won $ at showdown: 51.42
Preflop raise: 12.61
BB/100: 14.29
AgF: 3.8 f, 3.2 t, 3.46 r (thought these were higher)

PF raises:
Button: 17.21
1: 15.45
2: 11.25
3: 11.10
BB: 8.23
SB: 10.01

Now ye're talking BB/100: 14.29 Over 25K hands that's great going especially if you have been multi-tabling?
These stats look just about ideal to me, obviously you have been playing far better than me so I don't know if I have any right whatsoever to pick any holes, if I had to though it seems a tad loose PF, but then again you are obviously playing superb after the flop so fair enough.... for multi-tabling the VPIP: 30.8% might mean getting involved a little too much too. Buyt these are the only things I can even remotely criticise about your stats.

I'm going to investigate further but I think your kind of stats are a good target to be aiming for
Keep up the good play and I must remember not to play on same table as you


And yip I agree with the criticisms of mine btw spot on I reckon, I hope I'll learn from them.

ocallagh wrote:

in summary i think you need to raise less UTG, UTG+1, and raise more on the button. Do you overbet the pot a lot? if so i think u should bet 3/4 pot or pot more.. while u price people out of draws the way you play you give others great implied odds by setting traps!

No I don't overbet the pot so much - though I will do on occasion - my general range is 40-80% of pot but that's only general, I think it might be that I'm just a little bit over aggressive more than anything else, good point too about me getting trapped.

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd like to see my Omaha results as it's been going very well.

You do know there is a pokertracker for Omaha - I only started playing omaha in April so my omaha stats don't make pretty reading though I think I have improved a helluva lot from inititial awful play.

ocallagh wrote:

AgF: 1.93 f, 1.77 t, 2.13 r (ridiculously low compared to some people...! and i dont have the checkbox "Include Pre-flop numbers..." checked...)

On Ocallagh stats again your are obviously doing better than me but I really think it's obviousl that you are not being aggressive enough post flop and I'm far too aggressive, I reckon if you cranked it up a bit while I went down a gear or 2 both and both our aggression factors were closer to ianmc's then both our results would improve. To be honest I'd settle for your 8BB/100 though

Good to exchange this info and helping each other out, the swedes have been doing it for years. Hope this info exchange helps all of us.

tribulus

Just a quick quesiton for lower stakes 25/50c and 10/25c (6max) Seen as how its generally looser and more passive, what sort of stats should you aim for?

I know lower down its more a case of wait to hit a good hand then just get paid off but i'd still be interested in some stats.

Mine are (10/20c 6max)

VPIP 24% Won WSF 37% BB/100 : 4 went to SD 25% Won at SD 47% PFR 8%

total post flop agg 1.3:o

So decrease VPIP and increase Agg? o'callagh i'm down as a SLAP aswell:(

ianmc38

tribulus wrote:

Just a quick quesiton for lower stakes 25/50c and 10/25c (6max) Seen as how its generally looser and more passive, what sort of stats should you aim for?

I know lower down its more a case of wait to hit a good hand then just get paid off but i'd still be interested in some stats.

Mine are (10/20c 6max)

VPIP 24% Won WSF 37% BB/100 : 4 went to SD 25% Won at SD 47% PFR 8%

total post flop agg 1.3:o

So decrease VPIP and increase Agg? o'callagh i'm down as a SLAP aswell:(

Your VPIP is fine. Increase aggression. Maybe increase PFR% and increase won at SD%.

tribulus

Grand, thanks

luckylucky

tribulus wrote:

Just a quick quesiton for lower stakes 25/50c and 10/25c (6max) Seen as how its generally looser and more passive, what sort of stats should you aim for?

I know lower down its more a case of wait to hit a good hand then just get paid off but i'd still be interested in some stats.

Mine are (10/20c 6max)

VPIP 24% Won WSF 37% BB/100 : 4 went to SD 25% Won at SD 47% PFR 8%

total post flop agg 1.3:o

So decrease VPIP and increase Agg? o'callagh i'm down as a SLAP aswell:(

Yeah defo up the aggression, put em under pressure!
1.3 is way too low especially as you are relatively tight pre-flop.

Ok - you probably don't want to get as agro as what I posted 6.02 granted I'm going to tone that down a bit - maybe 4 is a good target for me!

And you got to factor in the more fishy nature of (10/20c 6max) - but still I'm thinking that your AF should be at least double what it is.

though your pfr% isn't bad I think - it's certainly ballpark ok but I do agree with ianmc that it is a little on the low side of where you want it. push it to over 10% and see how you get on.

ianmc38

tribulus wrote:

Grand, thanks

What's your VPIP and PFR in every seat?

tribulus

luckylucky wrote:

Yeah defo up the aggression, put em under pressure!
1.3 is way too low especially as you are relatively tight pre-flop.

Ok - you probably don't want to get as agro as what I posted 6.02 granted I'm going to tone that down a bit - maybe 4 is a good target for me!

And you got to factor in the more fishy nature of (10/20c 6max) - but still I'm thinking that your AF should be at least double what it is.

though your pfr% isn't bad I think - it's certainly ballpark ok but I do agree with ianmc that it is a little on the low side of where you want it. push it to over 10% and see how you get on.

thanks,ill start working on it

sorry for the thread hijacking!

edit: position stats VPIP 32 23 22 17 15 45(yikes) going from the buuton to the SB
PFR% 10 9 8 8 3 3

edit edit: position stats have some 25/50 hands in there too, less than 1K though out of 4K total

luckylucky

tribulus wrote:

thanks,ill start working on it

sorry for the thread hijacking!

Lol well I kinda hijacked it a bit myself originally but nah seriously i think this is turning out to be a very valuable post, I think it is making all the contributors think about how to improve their game.

the one advice for all is to be wary of making any wholesale changes.

My style is aggressive, that's not going to change, bit like Roy Keane in soccer, but I do need to mellow it somewhat i think.

Other people like yourself have some obvious changes to make too.
Others are more subtle I suppose - part of the fun of the game the constant search for improvement.

Also some of the biggest negative factors don't get represented in these stats though, I have played sometimes when I'm knackered or after coming back from da pub or, some people claim they play fine when they're pissed - not me though my bb/100 is defo in da negative.

So this kinda stupid leak needs to get kicked in to touch period and lately I have gotten a tighter rein over it, if I go pro which I'm deliberating on it'll need to be watertight big time.

luckylucky

tribulus wrote:

thanks,ill start working on it


edit: position stats VPIP 32 23 22 17 15 45(yikes) going from the buuton to the SB
PFR% 10 9 8 8 3 3

Why yikes here btw - you are in the small blind it's natural that this is going to be far higher than anywhere else - I mean if there is no raise pre-flop which I guess there won't be for somewhere around 40% of time or more I'm guessing - as a general rule are you just going to fold to the BB when you have odds of 3 to 1? don't think so!

here's mine might make you feel better 18.25, 17.44,15.73,13.03,24.49,52.92

The thing you will notice is my vpip is pretty tight in general in fact from what I've seen here and throughout this thread I think I could do with cranking it up from the button but in blinds it's looser than yours, I'm tight pre flop but if people wanna pick on me because of that when I am in the blinds then I will be fighting back at least some of the time especially against known blind stealers especially ace rag lovers - My agro pf style puts their ace rag under pressure when the flop misses em.

And by the way I think my Blind stats particularly my small blind ones are probably one of the best parts of my game BB - .1 per hand and my SB is actually positive .01 per hand - at least I think these are good stats! as you expect to lose money even if you play good in these 2 positions, so it shows it pays to not give people an easy ride, not saying you need to be psycho in defending em but if you are saying yikes because you think 45 is too high think again I reckon it could be too low! and same goes for your BB vpip imho anyways.

ianmc38

Just downloaded Poker Tracker Omaha. My 1st 1k hands imported look good monetarily(stats look brutal), and I'm ridiculously loose passive preflop

Gonna buy it now and import the rest of the hands

Why are my hi-lo hands not importing?