Plastic Surgery - What say ye?

LadyJ

I was in a friend's house the other day and his mother was watching this show called "Extreme Makeover",where they basically take a bunch of people who are dreadfully unhappy with their appearance and they give them some plastic surgery.

Now,I can't seem to figure out my stance on this issue. Sometimes I think it's a step in the wrong direction but other times I think that maybe it's just not that big a deal and people should have a right to do whatever they like to their bodies.

However,there's a big part of me that thinks we should focus on helping people to become confident and secure individuals,who can be satisfied with who they are and what they look like,without having to go under the knife at all.

What do you think? Do you agree with shows like "Extreme makeover" or that other thing "The Swan" (or whichever one just completely changes the way the contestants look and then they vote as to who came out looking the best)?

I just don't know.

Sometimes I'm disgusted but sometimes I'm just apathetic about it all.

Nature Boy

I don't watch or agree with those shows, but in real life I think people should do whatever they want with their bodies. I wouldn't agree with somebody doing it to 'Fit in' to a group or because they feel they're expected to feel good but like I say if it's what they want to do; I guess they're not harming anyone.

LadyJ

Nature Boy wrote:

I don't watch or agree with those shows, but in real life I think people should do whatever they want with their bodies. I wouldn't agree with somebody doing it to 'Fit in' to a group or because they feel they're expected to feel good but like I say if it's what they want to do; I guess they're not harming anyone.

Not an attack but why do you think it's ok in everyday life but not on tv?

Do you think it's ok for people to get get a regular,non-surgical makeover at home but not on tv?

trillianv

With the Swan, I actually have to say I enjoyed the show. The women were given plastic surgery to handle parts of them that wouldn't change through diet or exercise (i.e. nose, facial hair, scarring) but then they had to put in a h3ll of a lot of effort to get their bodies into the shape they wanted through personal trainers and eating right. Watching some of their stories I could understand why they would want to tackle it so publicly and so aggressively.

As for public surgery in general, there are many aspects of it I hate, or rather people who are the reason not to have it (Jordan, Jackie Stallone, Cher, etc). But for some surgeries I once again can see why a person would go through it. Breast reduction is one that makes sense. I know personally I would have it done if I were done having children and really felt it would make a difference in how i felt about my body. Sometimes confidence can only be built up so far before a little extra help is needed. Having said that, I think what beauty magazines and the celebrity culture is doing to our children is disgusting. Anorexia and bullemia are rampant and not just with the girls....boys are now developing eating disorders. I am expecting my first child and I have realized I will need to be very careful about what I say in front of them. I will try not to give my children a bad body image.

simu

Well, with individuals who decide to have plastic surgery off the TV, it seems some people take a balanced approach and others less so. But those Swan shows are pure psychological exploitation and it makes me sick to watch them tbh.

Madge

simu wrote:

But those Swan shows are pure psychological exploitation and it makes me sick to watch them tbh.

Agreed. On 'The Swan' they show a video of the woman who is being made over that week and this woman is basically saying she hates herself. Its the same every week. Then, the worst part is when all the 'experts'- cosmetic dentist, plastic surgeon, trainer, make up artist etc. sit around a big table watching this poor woman and then discussing her 'needs'. Saying things like 'she'd look so much better with tooth veneers' and 'she could lose some weight on her arms'. Its degrading and patronising.

Wibbs

Madge wrote:

Its degrading and patronising.

Exactly the words I would have chosen. To take vulnerable people and subject them to that with the chance that regardless of the outcome of the surgery, they'll just be as unhappy would be bad enough. To do it in the name of "entertainment" is too far for me. Within 5 mins of watching that over chined hipless irish wan coming over all "emotional" I was irritated to the back teeth TBH. Smug cynical patronising TV at its worst.

fly_agaric

LadyJ wrote:

Do you think it's ok for people to get get a regular,non-surgical makeover at home but not on tv?

He probably means that they can do what they like (they may be hurting themselves but its their body being made over and their mind being f-ed over by participation in the program) [However, I wonder what their children, relatives, other halves think/feel?] but it is not particularly healthy for the rest of us to be the voyeurs getting off on this kind of manipulative emo-porn. It's like the poison of Big Brother ^ 3.

trillianv wrote:

With the Swan, I actually have to say I enjoyed the show.

I've never seen it - but I think I can safely say..

Oh dear oh dear oh dear!

I'm posting a reply to one of the economic units helping to generate the market for this filth. Please, I beg you, don't watch it again...:)

EDIT: I suppose that all sounds a bit self righteous, but I don't care. People have always gotten their jolllies from voyeurism of one sort of another but I don't have to like it, or to be happy that TV/the media at the moment are only too pleased to cater for it with various types of "reality TV" that people never seem to tire of.

metrovelvet

Im sorry but these "vulnerable people" were not held at gunpoint to go on these shows. There is a mutually beneficial relationship between the exhibitionist and the vouyeur so I wouldnt cry any rivers for these ladies.

Esse est percipi. [To be is to be perceived.]

Tar.Aldarion

Have you watched the shows? These people have serious mental issues, they need help, not a **** load of surgery. I felt very sorry for them watching that show, The Swan.

metrovelvet

No, I havent seen them. But I do live in NYC where discussing the work you'd consider having done is a regular part of dinner conversation. TV has made it become normative.

Sleepy

Are you familiar with the concept of these shows at least metrovelvet?

They're not simple issues like a tummy tuck, breast augmentation etc. These are total "makeovers" involving numerous surgical procedures. There have even been cases of shows where people get surgery to make them look like celebrities! :eek:

metrovelvet

Im familiar with some of the American ones,which admittedly Ive never watched, but stumbled across briefly.

It would strike me that anyone who would want a total makeover to look like a celebrity and to also go through this conversion on television, does have serious issues, most likely revolving around attention seeking but is also symptomatic of how fame crazy our culture has become that we now have these outlets for such performances.

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Have you watched the shows? These people have serious mental issues, they need help, not a **** load of surgery. I felt very sorry for them watching that show, The Swan.

I've watched the shows, and I found what you said to be a massive generalisation. Some of the participants I would consider having serious issues, but only some of them. A fair number of them were "normal" modern women. others were women stcuk in their older images, and wanting to leave that behind.

The thing is that these shows are no different to what women experience on a daily basis. The whole media industry attacks women about their appearance. Magazines targeting teens right through to middle age, all cater mostly about the physical appearance. Female books harp on and on about romantic entanglements with attractive men, which few women believe they themselves can actually get.

Men don't really experience this life. I've met very few Irish men that really cared about fashion or how it impacted on their lives. I watched "The Devil wears Prada" last night, and it revealed some of this to me (and struck a cord in many ways).

These shows are promotional pireces for these industries. But so what if they are? From what I saw they promote healthy respect for themselves at every step of the way (and lets face it, if it improves their image of themselves, who are we to complain). I don't have any issues with plastic surgery myself. I've been half tempted to get some little cosmetic changes made, and I AM a guy.

Sleepy

metrovelvet wrote:

Im familiar with some of the American ones,which admittedly Ive never watched, but stumbled across briefly.

It would strike me that anyone who would want a total makeover to look like a celebrity and to also go through this conversion on television, does have serious issues, most likely revolving around attention seeking but is also symptomatic of how fame crazy our culture has become that we now have these outlets for such performances.

I suppose our difference of opinion stems from the fact that I don't think such attention seeking idiots should be entertained...

metrovelvet

What difference in opinion? I dont find them entertaining but someone does or these shows wouldnt get the ratings. Its a mutually beneficial relationship. Voyeur and exhibitionist.

simu

metrovelvet wrote:

What difference in opinion? I dont find them entertaining but someone does or these shows wouldnt get the ratings. Its a mutually beneficial relationship. Voyeur and exhibitionist.

It doesn't benefit the "exhibitionists". Seriously, watch the Swan a few times and see for yourself.

Sleepy

I don't see these programmes as something society should allow, never mind encourage. And I agree with simu, the 'exhibitionists' on these programmes need psychological help, not complete surgical reconstruction. I'm no Brad Pitt. I've learned to deal with this. These women need to learn to deal with their self-image issues.

LadyJ

I wonder sometimes what the reaction would be if someone from "Jackass",for example,were to get a crazy looking nose job just for the laugh...

Does anyone think there are people who just get plastic surgery done because they can and they feel like it,without having a completely negative self-image?

I mean,does anyone think that this is just not a big deal and that it's great that,with modern science,people can just look however they want to?

Not saying I think this myself,but just food for thought.

Bottle_of_Smoke

LadyJ wrote:

I wonder sometimes what the reaction would be if someone from "Jackass",for example,were to get a crazy looking nose job just for the laugh...

Does anyone think there are people who just get plastic surgery done because they can and they feel like it,without having a completely negative self-image?

I mean,does anyone think that this is just not a big deal and that it's great that,with modern science,people can just look however they want to?

Not saying I think this myself,but just food for thought.

Of course. Just like people can wear eyeliner & straighten their hair because they feel like it. Ok thats not surgery but.....

If someone has half their face burned off no-one objects to them getting surgery to fix it - you know, because it could affect how you feel about yourself. If an ugly person gets a nose job or breast implants they're condemned/stigmatised.

But what if their ugliness/flat chestedness made them feel as bad as Johnny Noface? Surely they should be allowed to escape their problem if there's a solution available???

I took roaccutane for acne a few years back - worked really well so whats the difference between that & getting my face operated on to make it look better?

My own opinion - people don't like others getting an advantage they "don't deserve" - its like "God/Darwin gave you a body now work with it"

Begs the question "How come I'm ugly & there's nothing I can do but the bitch across the street who won the lotto can feel attractive"

People can claim invasion/whatever but they really just don't like the idea of someone else getting one step ahead of them.

Needless to say I have no problem with it.

However I'd hate to see it come to the situation where everyone has it & it's stops being an advantage & more something you need(like make up for women). There's no way it'll happen to men before I'm past my sell by date so no panic.

So you have to be somewhat disfigured or clinically ugly to get cosmetic surgery

Personally I wouldn't be mad on anything noticeable - looking in the mirror & your initial glance tells you its a stranger - Don't think I'd like the idea of feeling part of me wasn't part of me. My only current defect is I'm pretty small - but if a procedure was there to make me taller I wouldn't go for it - would just feel like I was walking around in a complete stranger's body. A few years back when I was unhappy about it I would have jumped at the chance - more effort needs to be made with addressing the real reasons people choose cosmetic surgery

Sangre

The problem with shoes like 'The Swan' is that they perpetuate the myth that life can be altered with only superficial changes. They base the foundation of happiness and emotional stability on how you look and not how you feel. Its as if life fulfillment is an on/off switch that can only be triggered with a surgeon's knife.

They also narrow beauty into defined categories of 'you're nose should be narrower', 'you're eyes should be flatter' etc.,This is regardless of weight-loss, everyone should try and aim to be of healthy weight obtained by healthy eating and regular exercise. I'm talking about appearances besides this e.g. facial/breats/ass.

Of course I have no problem with plastic surgery per se, as a means of altering a certain undesireable part of someone's body, we are free after all. But I'd really rather people did it after careful consideration and not as a means to an end, that is, 'I'll be happy if I have bigger boobs'. When I think it should be 'If I have bigger boobs I'll have increased self confidence which will hopefully help me be more outgoing!'

The problem with shoes like 'The Swan' is that they perpetuate the myth that life can be altered with only superficial changes. They base the foundation of happiness and emotional stability on how you look and not how you feel. Its as if life fulfillment is an on/off switch that can only be triggered with a surgeon's knife.

There is a flaw in your reasoning here. Peoples lives can be improved by those changes, if they believe it helps. People shape their own reality, and their happiness is derived from how they see themselves in the world. If that means changing from a A cup to a C cup, then so be it. They're changing their outward appearance to give their self-confidence a boost. (which in turn may determine whether they meet their perfect man, get that job, lose the insults or bad reactions they receive from people etc)

For women how you look determines in many ways how they feel. And this is the world that both men & women have created, because we for the most part judge people on how they look. At least initially.

I've been party to alot of self-help studies/disciplines, using nlp, hypnosis etc. Through the use of those disciplines I've removed certain phobias, opinions, and insecurities that I gained while growing up. This in itself a type of surgery, because I no longer have these "problems". The only difference is that they don't involve the physical body. And yet they've changed my life so much that I've had people comment on how I've changed.

I think the problem here is that posters seem to be looking at the extremes. Where someone is getting their whole body changed. Or they're getting a massive change to their body. There's literally thousands of people who have had cosmetic surgery that are no different than you or me (in levels or depression, or mental health), and lead perfectly healthy lives afterwards.

The Swan show is a fantasy outlet for most people. In Ireland very few people will actually go through with getting cosmetic surgery although thats on a rise. Between the cost and the pain involved its quite offputting. However, for those people who have a disfiguring physical attribute like acne scars, flat chested, huge nose, beards for women etc, it provides a welcome answer to a problem that affects their lives on a daily basis. And Frankly for those people I welcome any any reasonable answer to their problem. For others, its a cosmetic choice, and something I doubt they'll enter without considering very carefully.

LadyJ

Sangre wrote:

They also narrow beauty into defined categories of 'you're nose should be narrower', 'you're eyes should be flatter' etc.

Apparently "beauty",if we are to look at it in a sort of scientific way,is actually all about symmetry.

So I assume that that would be the ultimate goal of the surgeon.

Nature Boy

LadyJ wrote:

Not an attack but why do you think it's ok in everyday life but not on tv?

Do you think it's ok for people to get get a regular,non-surgical makeover at home but not on tv?

Point taken, I retract my statement.

I guess one thing I could say is that impressionable teenagers could be watching the show and maybe they might feel like they have to try to look better to be accepted in society. But I'm not an impressionable teenager so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about!

metrovelvet

I say it combines the denial of ageing and the fun of self reinvention while its popularity is a barometer of how much attractiveness and youth are tied into personal status.

coffee_cake

I saw a show once, with a woman on it who was obsessed with having bigger breasts. I suppose she was an a or b. She was young enough as well, around 20 or so. Judging by the clips they showed of her, she really was obsessed. Finally she managed to get surgery and got up to a c or d, which was apparently the biggest they could stretch to for her. I knew as soon as she had them, it wouldn't be enough. And I was right - at the end, she was saying she wanted another cup size or two larger. She needed some kind of counselling, not surgery.
If people have particular problems like that one where only one breast grows and the other doesn't, or they were in an accident etc, then it's fine by me. But just to look different, with bigger lips or stupidly sized breasts? No, they need therapy not surgery.

Bottle_of_Smoke

bluewolf wrote:

If people have particular problems like that one where only one breast grows and the other doesn't, or they were in an accident etc, then it's fine by me. But just to look different, with bigger lips or stupidly sized breasts? No, they need therapy not surgery.

Meh not really fair. When you look well you genuinley feel happier. It gives you confidence. You can call me shallow whatever but it would have been an advantage to survival during evolution. If you felt happy when you looked well then you would want to look well thus a better chance of attracting a mate and pass on some genes.

And if it's just therapy you need, why do people with disfigured breasts have exemption over people with small breasts ?

metrovelvet

Yes. And when things go south, whats wrong with a lift? If disfugurement is the justification for plastic surgery, then we are all justified in doing it, as to some extent all of us are imperfect, or "disfigured."

Not that we should have to justify these things to anyone but ourselves.

coffee_cake

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Meh not really fair. When you look well you genuinley feel happier. It gives you confidence. You can call me shallow whatever but it would have been an advantage to survival during evolution. If you felt happy when you looked well then you would want to look well thus a better chance of attracting a mate and pass on some genes.

And if it's just therapy you need, why do people with disfigured breasts have exemption over people with small breasts ?

Because given the example I was thinking of, she looked great with the first surgery. She was completely obsessed with looking different and more, more, more and I genuinely didn't think she'd ever be happy. That's why.

Ok, I'll modify that from "no cosmetic surgery unless disfigured" to "let's stop being *quite* so casual and obsessed with it"?

Bottle_of_Smoke

bluewolf wrote:

Because given the example I was thinking of, she looked great with the first surgery. She was completely obsessed with looking different and more, more, more and I genuinely didn't think she'd ever be happy. That's why.

Ok, I'll modify that from "no cosmetic surgery unless disfigured" to "let's stop being *quite* so casual and obsessed with it"?

why do you assume everyone will be like her though. It's like saying everyone who tries weed will have to try every other drug too.

I'll give you an example

Girl A has C sized breasts naturally but due to a genetic abnormality one of them won't grow properly. She's 5'7 & a size 12.

Girl B is the same height & build but she has size A breasts.

They both feel uncomfortable with their breasts.

Why does girl A deserve surgery but girl B doesn't?

Read that link in your signature.

metrovelvet

Because given the example I was thinking of, she looked great with the first surgery

So if it meets your approval then its ok?

You seem to be saying that if the procedure is done to measure up to what you perceive to be normative measures of what the body should be, then thats acceptable?