Irish Citizenship

YeAh!

How long do you have to live in Ireland before you can claim Irish citizenship and get an Irish passport? Trying to find out for a Polish guy that I work with.

KTRIC

YeAh! wrote:

How long do you have to live in Ireland before you can claim Irish citizenship and get an Irish passport? Trying to find out for a Polish guy that I work with.

Why does a Polish guy need an Irish passport ? . Poland is part of the EU and he has the same rights as any other Irish citizen.

whassupp2

Try this link:


http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/migration_and_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

Clinical Waste

5 years continuous residency or 3 years married to an Irish citizen.

At the moment waiting list for 2nd option is over 12 months and even longer for first. So 6 years plus for your friend at this stage.

Our man in Havana

It will also cost you a fair bit of dosh ~€700. My english wife says it is simply not worth the money for her to get changed over. It would take 70 years to break even on the diffrence in price of a UK and Irish passports.

maidhc

Bond-007 wrote:

It will also cost you a fair bit of dosh ~€700. My english wife says it is simply not worth the money for her to get changed over. It would take 70 years to break even on the diffrence in price of a UK and Irish passports.

The price of the Uk passport will be going up a lot next year when registration on the ID database becomes compulsory.

It is wrong though to say a polish working in Ireland has the same rights as an Irish citizen. Freedom of movement rights are still really founded on economics and labour rather than grander notions of a United Europe. They are still non-nationals, and after an initial period of 3 mths may be subjected to additional restrictions.

A UK citizen by contrast has far more rights due to they not being classed as a non-national.

Our man in Havana

maidhc wrote:

The price of the Uk passport will be going up a lot next year when registration on the ID database becomes compulsory.

I would assume that this will not effect existing passport holders until renewal time, in my wifes case is 2012?

MadsL

The alternative is a bit of a pain in the ass to get organised too...at the moment my wife has to report to Garda Immigration every year, she asked about long-term residency and she qualifies for long-term papers (she gets 2 years residency with every trip to GIB)

The problem is GIB want her passport (original) my passport (original) P60s (original - mine and hers) and lots of other paperwork. All that is fine except, get this, they cannot say how long they need the passports for and it may take SIX months before they complete the paperwork.
And in the meantime we are supposed to do what, twiddle thumbs until the passports come back, so - no holiday or work trips for SIX MONTHS! She can be expected at work to travel on a couple of days notice and we have 3 trips to France, UK and Bulgaria planned in this coming six months.

She asked could she come in and present the passports and they can make the copies they need, to be told "Oh, we don't have a desk service, you'll just have to wait"

Appalling Civil Service nonsense.

MadsL

A UK citizen by contrast has far more rights due to they not being classed as a non-national.

1. Only difference is that we do not have to register with GIB
2. No-one is a non-national - please stop refering to foreign nationals as being stateless. I have a nationality, as does my wife, it is different to your nationality but it still exists. Foreign National will do just fine thanks.

maidhc

MadsL wrote:

2. No-one is a non-national - please stop refering to foreign nationals as being stateless. I have a nationality, as does my wife, it is different to your nationality but it still exists. Foreign National will do just fine thanks.

I didn't say stateless, a "national" is a citizen of Ireland, the UK, and NI. A "non-national" is everyone else in the world. It is a term of art, and that is what it means and is defined as such in the legislation. If you dislike it I suggest you lobby your local TD for a change in terminology!

A UK citizen can also vote in general elections, avail of the common travel area between the UK and Ireland and I'm sure there are lots of other social welfare related benefits also... (The UK accords the same privileged status to irish people)

@Bond... I don't think so!

MadsL

I didn't say stateless, a "national" is a citizen of Ireland, the UK, and NI. A "non-national" is everyone else in the world. It is a term of art, and that is what it means and is defined as such in the legislation. If you dislike it I suggest you lobby your local TD for a change in terminology!

Term of art or not, it is clumsy phrase and gives away a certain attitude on the part of John O'Donoghue and the Department at the time.

I'm sure you appreciate why foreign nationals find this term offensive. To draw an extreme example there are some that will continue to use the word 'coloured', a prime example of a term of the art that was aparthied. It is time that the legislature caught up with a little humanity in it's artless 'terms of art'. The problem with these phrases is they end up being preceded by swear words - F*king non-nationals = non-people.

Term ‘ non-national’ to be reviewed - - Kitty Holland, Irish Times, 15/05/2006
The use of the term "non-national" to describe a person not born in this country to non-Irish parents, is to be reviewed, the Department of Justice has confirmed.
A spokeswoman for the Department said yesterday the Minister, Michael McDowell was "minded to bring his attention to finding a more appropriate use of language". She said the issue was being looked at in the context of the Immigration Bill due to be published shortly.
The issue was raised in the Dáil last week by Fianna Fáil TD Pat Carey.
Describing the use of the term as inaccurate, he said there were "very few people living in Ireland who do not have a nationality".
"This term can often be misinterpreted to mean that immigrants to Ireland are living here illegally, which the vast majority are not."
The phrase was outdated and should have no place in public debate, he added.
Increasingly the term "non-Irish national" is used. The Department spokeswoman said the development of terminology was "always incremental" and pointed out that as recently as 1998 the legal term for a person born outside the State to non-Irish parents and who was in the State was "alien".
Introducing the term "non-national" into Irish legislation in the 1999 Immigration Bill, the then minister for justice, John O'Donoghue, referred to the new legal term.
"This expression is more in keeping with modern usage than the term 'alien', which has been used in the Aliens Act 1935," he said.
"Nowadays it is more likely to conjure up images of outer space than of people from other countries. I am happier to see its use discontinued," he said.
Mr Carey said yesterday he welcomed Mr McDowell's commitment to review the use of "non-national" and urged him to do so as quickly as possible.

ScottishDanny

I have an Irish passport but am classed as an Irish Citizen not an Irish National. The beaureaucracy (sp?) was a pain though. I had to get my photos signed by a garda at the local nick but he said he didn't know me! I think he wanted me to break a window or something :rolleyes: My UK passport has run out but I don't think I'll bother renewing it, my work sends me to places called [BLANK]istan etc so I'll stick with the paddy passport for what protection it affords me (probably not much).

maidhc

MadsL wrote:

Term of art or not, it is clumsy phrase and gives away a certain attitude on the part of John O'Donoghue and the Department at the time.

Part of the problem is that words to describle ethnic minorities tend to have a short life span, while legislation does not.

Personally I don't see the problem with the word, you must remember that a US citizen is also a "non-national" in the eyes of the legislation, I don't think anyone will seriously argue that Ireland somehow doesn't recognise the existance of the US.

daveg

Both my parents are English. We moved here when I was 7. I'm now 32. I am married to an Irish women and have an Irish child. I've done 90% of my schooling here and consider myself 100% Irish (jesus I even jeer the England team in the world cup). Yet I don't automatically qualify for an Irish passport. Instead I have to go through all that red tape and pay E700. It's bollax.

hullaballoo

I'm not sure where I stand on the term for people who are not Irish. Personally, there's nothing wrong with calling them foreign, because that is what they are. The term non-national was introduced to be a little more sanctimonious with political correctness, and was obviously felt to have done the opposite.

Anyway, the term for a non-Irish person is irrelevant to the discussion of how long it takes and what the costs are of Irish citizenship, so perhaps the OP would appreciate if the thread were to get back on topic.

It's an interesting debate, however, so feel free to start another thread about it!

Eru

ScottishDanny wrote:

I have an Irish passport but am classed as an Irish Citizen not an Irish National. The beaureaucracy (sp?) was a pain though. I had to get my photos signed by a garda at the local nick but he said he didn't know me! I think he wanted me to break a window or something :rolleyes: My UK passport has run out but I don't think I'll bother renewing it, my work sends me to places called [BLANK]istan etc so I'll stick with the paddy passport for what protection it affords me (probably not much).

When you declare for an alternative nationality you are supposed to surrender your original passport. Most dont but your supposed to.

Please also note that by signing your application I am verifying to the world and the various state agencies that you are who you say you are. If a random stranger asked you to do this would you? I think not so try and appreciate that Gardai have to consider their jobs, state security, child abductions, previous convictions, asylum applications and fraudulant activities when looking at applications. Its also on the form that the various people allowed sign them SHOULD know you personally. Are you suggesting that you dont know a Garda, priest or doctor?

As for surrendering passports, My understanding was that all foreign nationals from outside the EU were required to surrender their passports in leu of recieving a GNIB card or have a valid visa.

MadsL

When you declare for an alternative nationality you are supposed to surrender your original passport.

You can hold dual Irish and UK or US citizenship

Our man in Havana

previous convictions

Since when is having previous convictions a bar to holding a passport?

dermot_sheehan

daveg wrote:

Both my parents are English. We moved here when I was 7. I'm now 32. I am married to an Irish women and have an Irish child. I've done 90% of my schooling here and consider myself 100% Irish (jesus I even jeer the England team in the world cup). Yet I don't automatically qualify for an Irish passport. Instead I have to go through all that red tape and pay E700. It's bollax.

You don't have to naturalize, you are automatically an Irish citizen by descent. I'm in a similar situation, whenever I get my Irish Passport renewed I have to send off my Canadian Birth Certificate with one of my parents birth certs and their marriage cert. It's not that big a deal.


Also whether its legal to hold two nationalities and therefore two passports depends on the countries involved. Ireland allows someone to hold two nationalties and therefore two passports, so does Canada, therefore I have a Canadian and Irish passport.

maidhc

Bond-007 wrote:

Since when is having previous convictions a bar to holding a passport?

I would have though the function of the Garda is merely to verify your identity. He shouldn't need to know you, just be satisfied you are who you claim to be and not due before a court.

focusing

Some of the cases above should just apply for an Irish passport and see what happens.

Don't forget the Grandparent Rule. Very many English people have an Irish grandparent, including most of our national football team. You just have to register yourself to get citizenship.

ScottishDanny

I think the OP was finding out for a Polish pal so the Granny rule probably won't work

In my own situation, I don't know any Garda or Priests and I'd have to pay to see the doctor which is why I thought the local cop shop would do (its their rule not mine). I'm not 100% on this but I think 5 years residency counts (trying to think of footballers who've done it - Olisadebe is Nigerian born but plays for Poland. I think he got it after 5 yrs). Hope that helps.

Eru

maidhc wrote:

I would have though the function of the Garda is merely to verify your identity. He shouldn't need to know you, just be satisfied you are who you claim to be and not due before a court.

And how do I verify a complete stranger? How can I state with 100% certainty that the birthcert you handed me is yours without knowing you? Or that you are the sole guardian of the child?

Bond,
Previous convictions for fraud would be a starting point. Also, you may have been ordered to surrender your passport or even if not that, on bail.

A case in point of why we need to check things. A man asked me too stamp a form saying his car was off the road. On checking his story I found out that the car belonged to his friend that was in jail and was also tagged as being involved in robberies. I could have easily stamped that.

Passports are a very strong document, especially Irish ones. many non nationals have attempted to obtain one illegally, criminals would love to do so and in other cases, people report them lost then ask us to stamp a form for a replacement, now how much does a real passport fetch in the blackmarket?

As for citizenship in the US and UK:

US: Section 337(a) of the INA [8 USC § 1448(a)]. Of particular relevance to the dual citizenship issue is that, as part of the oath, a new citizen must pledge "to renounce and abjure absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the applicant was before a subject or citizen."

The UK you are correct, they have no requirement, I thought they had for non commonwealth nations. As I said, the US does not enforce this in anyway but you take an oath to denounce your former citizenship.

100gSoma

MadsL wrote:

no holiday or work trips for SIX MONTHS! She can be expected at work to travel on a couple of days notice and we have 3 trips to France, UK and Bulgaria planned in this coming six months.
Appalling Civil Service nonsense.

you don't need a passport to travel within the EU. Just an offical photo ID.

clonycavanman

I was told years ago by a person who worked in a UK passport office that it is an offence to possess two passports- 5 year tariff, probably more now with inflation. You should only ever need one at a time; unless you are up to something really dodgy.
Maidhc; excellant point about 'words used to describe [people] having a short life span, while legislation does not'. The last thing we need is more loopholes, ambiguity and inconsistencies in the legislation.
Daveg; Sometimes 'bollax' for the few works for the greater good of the many; including preserving what was unique about that ould sod that has so won your affection.

Our man in Havana

Its not an offence to hold 2 passports at the same time. I know many UK/IRL dual nationals that hold both passports at the same time.

you don't need a passport to travel within the EU. Just an offical photo ID.

This is only true within the Schengen area. You still need a passport to travel from Ireland into the Schengen area and vice versa.

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

Its not an offence to hold 2 passports at the same time. I know many UK/IRL dual nationals that hold both passports at the same time.

This is only true within the Schengen area. You still need a passport to travel from Ireland into the Schengen area and vice versa.

I think he means 2 passports from the same nation but again, you can have dual nationality but your only supposed to have 1 passport at any given time.

Drivers license is acceptable as well as both are government issued. National ID cards from France/Germany and wherever else is also acceptable.

dermot_sheehan

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

I think he means 2 passports from the same nation but again, you can have dual nationality but your only supposed to have 1 passport at any given time.

Drivers license is acceptable as well as both are government issued. National ID cards from France/Germany and wherever else is also acceptable.

Nothing wrong with two passports from two countries provided the two jurisdictions allow for it. Nothing improper or illegal about it.

Regarding EU travel, you need a passport or a national ID card. Since Ireland does not issue a national ID card only a passport is acceptable. Within Schengen, although frontier ID checks have been abolished, you may still be asked to provide ID to check into hotels, etc. A passport or National ID would only be acceptable for this since there is no nationality requirement in issuing a driving licence (a driving licence merely proves an entitlement to drive, it does not prove nationality or immigration status)

johntwo

just wondering, if I was to get a Irish passport for my polish wife(six years married), she has become a citizen first? can she get a passport the 'normal' way and fee(via an post and 80euros)?

Fred Swanson

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onemorechance

You must be an Irish citizen in order to be eligible for an Irish passport.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/

Becoming an Irish citizen

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/

Fred Swanson

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Cushie Butterfield

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Do you not mean means tested social welfare payments? AFAIK any PRSI contribution based payments (Jobseekers/Illness)are not counted against you.

johntwo

I do not understand ( social welfare payment!), my wife has always worked( apart from about two months of illness benefit she claimed in the seven years plus here in Ireland) afaik? Do you mean that if she is on the 'dole', this is a negative aspect of any application?

Cushie Butterfield

johntwo wrote: »

I do not understand ( social welfare payment!), my wife has always worked( apart from about two months of illness benefit she claimed in the seven years plus here in Ireland) afaik? Do you mean that if she is on the 'dole', this is a negative aspect of any application?

Every application is decided on an individual basis, but broadly speaking having claimed a PRSI based payment such as Jobseeker's Benefit or Illness Benefit shouldn't adversely affect an application as these are time limited payments based on PRSI contributions paid & wouldn't be classed as being dependent on state aid. Jobseeker's Allowance on the other hand would be.

Fred Swanson

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ResearchWill

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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While that may have been the case a few short years ago, there has been some changes in the last few years. While I was aware of such refusals I have not come across such a refusal in recent years. Now that maybe because such applications are not being made or because of a change in policy.

Fred Swanson

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ResearchWill

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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It would be worth asking a solicitor again who does a lot if citizenships. If your last time you asked is more than a year or two ago.

BRAIN FEEDs

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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i can tell you first hand,that what you were told is utter nonsense in my experience.

ResearchWill

BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »

i can tell you first hand,that what you were told is utter nonsense in my experience.

I can tell you from my experience I have seen refusal based on claiming for social welfare. I also saw a refusal for a qualified professional earning serious money who had a conviction for non production on demand a driving licence, he got €50 fine and refused citizenship.

Taxburden carrier

Clinical Waste wrote: »

5 years continuous residency or 3 years married to an Irish citizen.

At the moment waiting list for 2nd option is over 12 months and even longer for first. So 6 years plus for your friend at this stage.

And that's all ?

ResearchWill

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

And that's all ?

No see section s 15 and 15(a) http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/consolidationINCA.pdf/Files/consolidationINCA.pdf

BRAIN FEEDs

ResearchWill wrote: »

I can tell you from my experience I have seen refusal based on claiming for social welfare. I also saw a refusal for a qualified professional earning serious money who had a conviction for non production on demand a driving licence, he got €50 fine and refused citizenship.

your saying,that you have seen someones application refused because they claimed social welfare? was that the reason given in writing? i ask this as,without going into detail,i know people who have claimed and were claiming welfare(while the process was ongoing)and had citizenship granted.

the person who didnt produce his licence,i can understand fully why his application was refused,he/she either didnt have a licence or decided to ignore the laws of the land he wanted to call home.

ResearchWill

BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »

your saying,that you have seen someones application refused because they claimed social welfare? was that the reason given in writing? i ask this as,without going into detail,i know people who have claimed and were claiming welfare(while the process was ongoing)and had citizenship granted.

the person who didnt produce his licence,i can understand fully why his application was refused,he/she either didnt have a licence or decided to ignore the laws of the land he wanted to call home.

If a person is a person to whom Asylum has been granted, or is a programme Refugee or granted Subsidary protection then they can have claimed Social welfare, otherwise and the following quote taken from a recent HC case,

"The Minister has adopted a general policy that he will normally require an applicant for naturalisation (unless he/she belongs to one of the categories stated above) to show that he/she has supported himself or herself (and his or her family if appropriate) while residing in the State and, as far as can be determined, is in a position to continue that support in the future. He is generally speaking, satisfied to accept that an applicant is self supporting if there is no evidence that he or she has accessed State support in the three year period prior to the date of application or subsequently and has satisfied officials that they have supported themselves independently in that period."

From http://courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/72407196f915a5bc80257a640052f80d?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Spila

In relation to the other person I believe a lapse due to driving his partners car, (his licence was always in his own car) was a bit much. But we went back got leave to appeal, conviction appeal was allowed and he applied again.

Cushie Butterfield

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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This was probably the problem in her case.

The operational guidelines for illness benefit have changed in recent years the end result being that people can no longer claim this payment indefinitely. The very maximum a person can claim it is two years & that's if they have sufficient PRSI contributions. In some cases the maximum is one year. Think of it as claiming on an insurance policy & an entitlement once you have sufficient credits.

Each citizenship application is examined on an individual basis. There is a big difference between two months and a number of years. The former wouldn't be an unreasonable amount of time for someone who had worked & paid PRSI for seven years, but a claim lasting several years would be viewed upon differently.

Fred Swanson

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