Irl: 2x21 - "?" [**Spoilers Within**]

Necronomicon

Usual spoilers, anyone who hasn't seen this episode and all that! (2 weeks in a row Basquille, you're getting forgetful )
Mr. Eko has dreams about his brother leading him somewhere. He seeks Locke's help in finding a secret location, the question mark "?", but both have a hard time getting along on the way there. Meanwhile, Jack and the other survivors grapple with the horrific situation in the hatch with the death of Ana-Lucia and Libby clinging to life. Lastly, Michael relishes into what he has done and keeps it a secret from the rest of the camp.

Good episode, really held my interest anyway with the whole Eko/dreams story (to be honest, any episode with Eko is automatically good )

Zapp Brannigan

I echo Necro, any episode that heavily involves Eko is a good one.

So the button is just an experiment to see how people will react to Dharma telling them to do something, very interesting!

Also, can't believe Libby is dead! Perhaps there was more to Eko's backstory? i.e. the girl being dead and coming back, maybe Libby will do this?

Necronomicon

I was shocked to see Libby die as well, it really puts a question mark (no pun intended in this episode) over why they had the storyline with her in the psyche hospital.
Also interesting to see the "psychic" that examined Claire in season 1. We now know he was a fraud, but he was pretty damn convincing when he examined Claire. The search function on boards is still down so I can't link to the US discussion, I might actually have to dig out that episode on dvd.

gustavo

US Thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054929629&referrerid=59211&highlight=2X21

biko

Confusing start, ok flashback, very good ending. Eko and Locke are the best characters yet. Jack more and more is losing it imo.

eamoss

You see the way eko takes the log of all the numbers witch have put it can they work back and see what happened when Henry didnt put in the numbers?

pokerwidow

ya weird seeing the psychic. Do not know whether to believe his story, that he is a fraud. Locke and Ecko are great. About time they bonded by taking a walk in the jungle.

Did you notice that the target sign where Sawyer hid his stash under is in the scene when Ecko talks to the girl at the airport? Just an useless piece of information.



Thank you for posting the US link, luuuuuvvv reading that.

JBoyle4eva

pokerwidow wrote:

Did you notice that the target sign where Sawyer hid his stash under is in the scene when Ecko talks to the girl at the airport? Just an useless piece of information.

Yup, it's the logo for ocanic Airlines, the aeroplane company they were flying on.

Thought it was a great episode, the new station has certainly put some ground into the theory that the button is useless after all. I don't think that the flashback provided much info, apart from Claire's psychic calling himself a 'fraud' which i found strange. I'm sad Libby died. I hope they somehow bring her back into a flashback to see why she was in the mental hospital.

Also, did anyone notice in the orientation film the professor called himself a different name to the other orientation film?

i give this ep a 9

pokerwidow

JBoyle4eva wrote:

Yup, it's the logo for ocanic Airlines, the aeroplane company they were flying on.

Sorry .
The different names used by the guy in the orientation video is in the US thread. It also mentions that the first one seemed to have only one arm, but the second has the use of his two arms.

Zapp Brannigan

US thread was a pretty interesting read...

weemcd

I've a feeling Libby will live on in Hurleys mind, he must be due another mental break down now.

Decent increase of pace in lost over the last few weeks, you can definatly feel the build up to something huge - what you would want in a finale. Mr. eko's flashbacks/dream sequences were fantastic.


I really don't think we could have asked for much more in this episode. We are also seeing a return to the dominance of Jack, with Locke seemingly taking a more recessive role, especially how Eko forced locke into revealing what he knew about ?

As for the cameras in the new hatch, we can hardly be surprised about that can we? But does it really make sense to locate people in a hatch on the island to watch cctv from another hatch on the same island? Surley this could be done remotly, therefore the pearl hatch is just another aspect of the experiment, considering the hatch itself had a camera in it, probably to be viewed from a centralised base, where the capsules with the notes were sent through the tube of compressed air (anyone else picture the simpsons famous beaver capsule scene at this point )

9/10 btw.

katyk

Just a thought, but that psychic man (who said he was a fraud), do you think he told Ekco it wasnt a miracle because he knew that if Ekco had to stay and investigate he wouldnt be on that plane and for some reason Ecko needed to be on the plane. You know the way he sent Claire on that flight because he knew it would crash and that way no one else could raise her son.

prospect

Aaahhh, there are so many questions now.....

Another classic line from Sawyer:
"The Artist Formally Known as Henry Gale"

gazzer

Did anybody else here the guy in the orientation video say
"After your 8 hour shift please return to the ferry" or something like that.. I am 99% certain i heard "ferry".

trishw78

did anyone notice how when Eko climbed to the top of the hill and looked around how all the other hills looked freakishly man made.

Finally just as the season is about to end things start getting exciting. I gave this a 10. Everytime I see a flash back I'm watching for a connection bewteen all the survivors.

The observation station is definately part of a bigger project. why else in the orientation video would they be told to observe and not to worry about why they are observing. I think there is more to the button than meets the eye. As for the new realationship between Locke and Eko. I think Eko is givin Locke some new "hope" or Faith as he had been questioning his faith in earlier episodes.

mikedragon32

First time in ages I got goosebumps!

I thought the whole back from the dead thing would lead to Libby's revival. Oh well...

Now we know Ecko's back story, it's pretty fu<ked up that the Oceanic flight crashed on the same island as his brother's plane, and that he was masquerading as his brother at the time.

TarfHead

gazzer wrote:

Did anybody else here the guy in the orientation video say
"After your 8 hour shift please return to the ferry" or something like that.. I am 99% certain i heard "ferry".

Yes
The video they were watching sort of skipped or scratched as he said it.
My wife heard it too.

BTW - what are the odds that when Eko and Locke retirn to the Swan, they'll make no mention on the Pearl ? Like when Claire & Kate discovered the other other hatch ?

gazzer

Im glad somebody else heard "ferry" mentioned.. at least i know im not going mad.

A couple of things bothered me about the episode though.. When last weeks ep ended it was daytime.. just as Locke was going to tell Jack about Henry Gale attacking AL.. I presume they went straight back to the hatch.. but it was nighttime when they got there.. i thought the hatch was only a little bit away from the beach??

Also How come Hurley didnt come looking for Libby?? it was the next day before he asked Sawyer and Kate if they had seen her.

Finally didnt Locke stash one of the statues in the hatch some eps back (the one with Charlies flashback)?? I remember Jack asking Locked why he had done it and Locke said that they could need it for medical reasons at some stage... why then did Jack send Sawyer to get heroin from his tent??

prospect

gazzer wrote:

why then did Jack send Sawyer to get heroin from his tent??

Cause he was using the situation to find out where sawyer was hiding the guns. He, being a doctor, knew that Libby had no hope of surviving anyway.

I am liking the way Jack is starting to tough up in the last few episodes.

I am assuming the Videos in the Pearl station will lead to michael being 'outed'

Baby4

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quazzy

Baby4 wrote:

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Yeah I think thats a very good point.

I dont think anyone outside of the hatch new Michael was back. It might dawn on somebody soon enough.

Also, about the guy on the orientation video. Read this from lostpedia:

"Dr. Marvin Candle" (François Chau) from the Swan Orientation Film calls himself "Dr. Mark Wickman" in the Pearl Orientation Video, and his left arm is no longer a prosthetic arm, which suggests that this orientation film was made before the "first" film we see in Orientation.

Or perhaps some form of cloning....


[edit] Check out the pun on the names: Candle and Wickman

MeTV

gazzer wrote:

Finally didnt Locke stash one of the statues in the hatch some eps back (the one with Charlies flashback)?? I remember Jack asking Locked why he had done it and Locke said that they could need it for medical reasons at some stage... why then did Jack send Sawyer to get heroin from his tent??

Yes, John took Charlie's stash and stored in in the armoury along with all the medical supplies - the same armoury that James later stripped bare with Charlie's help.

Evil_Bilbo

there are no tapes from the observation hatch. they were told to record what they saw (however minute) on their notebooks. Maybe when they're reading these notebooks they'll find out some stuff either about themselves or the previous hatch dwellers. A shame the stuff wasnt all on tapes.

Hopefully there'll be something in that "Log" that locke printed (eg michaels conversations with walt or henry not entering the numbers) - though probably there'll be no mention of any of it! I wonder will michael get caught or what - he had a pretty evil head on him at the end (even though he seemed to initially feel sorry for shooting libby).

So they found the ? and it was a bit of a dissapointment. Thought this was going to be the main hub, but its just "station 5 of 6".

When they said "john has lost his way" - did they mean he's losing faith in pushin the button, or he's generally stopped being a total legend and in touch with the island etc as he was before he entered the hatch.

constipatinator

I'm just wondering about what could have been. If Locke and Boone had realised that there was a hatch in "Deus Ex Machina", then they possibly could have seen and observed Desmond in the other hatch. They may even have been led there by the island to intentionally find it, but instead they found Desmond's hatch accidentally.

MeTV

Evil_Bilbo wrote:

So they found the ? and it was a bit of a dissapointment. Thought this was going to be the main hub, but its just "station 5 of 6".

That wasn't the ? - at least not the ? on the UV map, which is what we have to assume, for now, is what Eko's dreams were trying to lead him to - The Pearl is simply another station on a par with The Swan.

Evil_Bilbo wrote:

When they said "john has lost his way" - did they mean he's losing faith in pushin the button, or he's generally stopped being a total legend and in touch with the island etc as he was before he entered the hatch.

It seems to me that John had lost his faith in everything - the button, The Swan & the island and Eko was charged, through his dreams, with rebuilding (not restoring) that faith. John would constantly refer to The Swan as his hatch but, in recent weeks, he seems to have distanced himself from it somewhat with him explicitly telling Eko that it wasn't his hatch this week. After watching The Pearl's orientation video, the last of John's faith is stripped from him as he now believes the work he's been doing all these weeks pushing the button to be a sham. Now completely devoid of any faith in the island, John is primed to be led by Eko to rebuild his faith, perhaps to a different aim. It would seem that Eko is being manoeuvered into a position of undying faith in the island similar to John's but, as I said, with a different goal.

prospect

Here is the Video Transcript (i have spoilered as i am not sure what the ruling on posting transcripts is):

The Video:

Title Screen: The Dharma Initiative/5 of 6/Orientation. Next we see a screen with the white circle Dharma logo and under it is written: Orientation - Station 5 - The Pearl. As the film starts we see "Marvin Candle" minus the white lab coat. He's dressed in a turtleneck and sport coat, standing in the Pearl hatch.

Narration: Hello, I'm Dr. Mark Wickman, and this is the orientation film for Station 5 of Dharma Initiative. Station 5, or the Pearl, is a monitoring station where the activities of participants in Dharma Initiative projects can be observed and recorded -- not only for posterity, but for the ongoing refinement of the Initiative as a whole. As Karen DeGroot herself has written, "Careful observation in the only key to true and complete awareness." Your tour of duty will last 3 weeks and during this time you and your partner will observe a psychological experiment in progress. Your duty is to observe team members at another station on the island. These team members are not aware that they are under surveillance, or that they are the subjects of an experiment. Working in 8 hour shifts, you and your partner will record everything you observe in the notebooks we provided. What is the nature of the experiment, you might ask? What do these subjects believe they are accomplishing as they struggle to fulfill their tasks? You, as the observer, don't need to know. All you need to know is the subjects believe their job is of the utmost importance. Remember, everything that occurs, no matter how minute or seemingly unimportant, must be recorded. Each time a notebook is filled with the fruits of your diligent observation, roll it up [audio/video problem] containers provided. Then, simply place the container in the pneumatic tube, and presto, it will be transported directly to us. At the end of your 8 hour shift, proceed to the Pala ferry which will take you back to the barracks [audio/video problem] prepare for your next shift [/audio/video warp problem]. On behalf of the DeGroots, Alvar Hanso, and all of us here at the Dharma Initiative, thank you. Namaste and good luck.

End Screen: The Hanso Foundation,/1980 All Rights Reserved.

I have highlighted the two bits I feel are most significant.
The first one is highlighted as it does not actually state that the actions of those being observed are un-important. It just states thaty no-one needs to know what is going on.

The second highlighted bit is important for obvious reasons.

EDIT:
Also, I think the Pearl station is an expirement in itself. Otherwise they would just record the footage on tape. Why would they risk loosing important information on human error by having people write down what is happening?

Baby4

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Evil_Bilbo

are you sure the pearl is not the question mark alluded to at the start of the episode?

Thats the impression I got from it, though it does seem like a bit of a crappy hatch to be the centrepiece for a network of hatches. It does have observation equipment (possibly for other hatches too?). It wouldve been cool if they saw some "others" buzzing around in another hatch. The hatch didnt seem to have any food or stores or beds like the swan though, presumably because the subjects left at the end of their 8 hour shift.

Was the ground not salted to form a big questionmark (or was it just a big circle - couldnt really make out what ecko saw from ontop of the hill)

prospect

Evil_Bilbo wrote:

are you sure the pearl is not the question mark alluded to at the start of the episode?

Thats the impression I got from it, though it does seem like a bit of a crappy hatch to be the centrepiece for a network of hatches. It does have observation equipment (possibly for other hatches too?). It wouldve been cool if they saw some "others" buzzing around in another hatch. The hatch didnt seem to have any food or stores or beds like the swan though, presumably because the subjects left at the end of their 8 hour shift.

Was the ground not salted to form a big questionmark (or was it just a big circle - couldnt really make out what ecko saw from ontop of the hill)

The '?' marked the spot where the pearl station was located.

MeTV

The dead Earth formed a circular target, although from some angles it did look like a question mark. If you go back and look at the UV map from "Lockdown", you'll see that The Pearl is marked on it as being CV IV on the right of the map - they're close to the ? but The Pearl's not it.

~Rebel~

Was reading the US thread on this there and saw twins mentioned, ie the Candle/wickerman thing. Now i've heard of a lot of conspiracy themes that do on the whole make sense, but are just too convoluted and intricate to get across on TV so im figuring it cant be TOO Insane on too many levels.

What about the thought that the others actually Are the losties and the losties we see are their clones. I haven't fully thought through why yet, possibly for experiments into human beheaviour or whatever without actually using real people, instead using the clones of the dedicated scientists involved (the originals on whom the clones were made). Tiny bit of basis for this as well is the disguises found so the originals could speak with the copies.. Would lead to some quality potential scenes, such as hurly walkin through the jungle and seeing the original Libby through the trees or something..

Almost certainly wrong, but still, food for thought.

I think this is pretty imporant, sorry if someone mentioned it already but..

Remember when Michael was chatting to someone on that computer, and it takes a log ye.. surely when they print out the log they will see other entries other than the lost numbers, i.e. his "converstation with walt"

YeAh!

Deleted User wrote:

I think this is pretty imporant, sorry if someone mentioned it already but..

Remember when Michael was chatting to someone on that computer, and it takes a log ye.. surely when they print out the log they will see other entries other than the lost numbers, i.e. his "converstation with walt"

Wasn't much of a convo though was it? If i'm thinking of the small convo where he says "This is Michael", and the reply is "Dad?".
Also it seems that the people in the second hatch who were meant to be taking notes on the the people in the first hatch were under experiment too. I mean, they didn't know why they were taking notes, or they didn't know any more than the people in the first hatch did.

Ye but its just the PC was to be used _ONLY_ for the code, nothing else, I just think that michael has failed a "test" i.e. givin into temptation by desperation for his son

Mrs. MacGyver

I agre with slurms, perhaps Echo's story is a precedent for Libby raising from the dead. Also interesting to learn that they were guinea pigs used by the Dharma initiative under observation at all times. Imagine the button has no puropse! Another daft thing i'm wondering is that Libby mentioned Michael as she died. If this Dharma station 6 recorded peoples behaviour (manually) then maby theres a video backup of activities in the hatch (a long shot) that will vindicate Henry and incriminate Michael for what he did. i think Henry is hiding in the roof of the hatch as Locke and Echo found no trail of his departure. I also think that the Echo storyline is intriguing , the fact that both brothers were destined to land oon a remote pacific Island. Cant wait to find out more next week on Mr. Echo's / Lockes strange connecting dreams/visions of Echo's brother.

The Hill Billy

I thought it strange that Locke put his map of the stations into the message tube. Obviously that would alert anyone monitoring the tubes that (a) someone had entered the "?" station & (b) that that person had knowledge of other stations.

Is Locke trying to force the Others to react?

Baby4

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mikedragon32

I don't think Ecko was really looking for a trail left by Henry. Plus Locke is the experienced tracker and he was following Ecko.

Henry is gone, but not back to the Others. He's not going back there without Locke.

MeTV

I don't think "Henry" will be returning to the Others at all, he seems pretty damn scared of the leader and what he'll do to him for getting captured.

Draupnir

*

Baby4

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Killaqueen!!!

This was one of the best episodes of series2 and my friend forgot to tape it for me when I was away. I managed to see it but it was really dark and I couldn't make out some stuff.

So when Eko climbed to the top of the tree. He didn't see a big questoion mark, no? So, as has been said before, The Pearl is not the centre ? hatch of the island. Yet it is very close to it so surely Eko will try and find the ? hatch because they have the map.

-- Or do they? Someone said previously that Locke sent the map up the shoot? what an idiot! This probably goes to the centre ? hatch..but does it matter? All these videos...are from ages ago..all these hatches...they're abandoned! The videos have been copywrighted to about 1980 so I don't think the experiments are still active. Although there are the others..

Anyway, interesting video in the Pearl. Eko should've taken it back as well as the log papers.

Oh and about Henry...he didn't seem to be lying about how scared he was of his leader. He failed his mission (taking John with him) so he presumably won't go back to their camp. But they're the others! They'll find him at one stage

MeTV

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

So when Eko climbed to the top of the tree. He didn't see a big questoion mark, no?

No, it was a circle

So, as has been said before, The Pearl is not the centre ? hatch of the island. Yet it is very close to it so surely Eko will try and find the ? hatch because they have the map.

Might be just me but I don't think the quest he was sent on was to find the ? itself but rather using that to get John to help him leading to them finding The Pearl.

-- Or do they? Someone said previously that Locke sent the map up the shoot? what an idiot! This probably goes to the centre ? hatch..but does it matter?

Yes, John sent the map up the chute - think it was meant to be symbolic of him losing his faith in the island, but it came off more like him playing with the chute, in a childish kinda way.

All these videos...are from ages ago..all these hatches...they're abandoned! The videos have been copywrighted to about 1980 so I don't think the experiments are still active. Although there are the others..

According to Hugh McIntyre of the Hanso Foundation, the DHARMA Initiative was put to bed in 1987.

Anyway, interesting video in the Pearl. Eko should've taken it back as well as the log papers.

There would've been no point; no VCR in The Swan, only a projector. He can always go back to The Pearl if he needs to see it again.

Oh and about Henry...he didn't seem to be lying about how scared he was of his leader. He failed his mission (taking John with him) so he presumably won't go back to their camp. But they're the others! They'll find him at one stage

My thinking exactly

prospect

MeTV wrote:

No, it was a circle

Really, I though it was a ?, and the . was the location of the opening to the observation station (he he he, its funny cause it rhymes)....

MeTV

Ay, it looked like a ? from some angles when the longer grass was covering half of it, but it was a circle.