Black Belt Drop Outs?

Black Swan

Takes about 4 years (average) for a very committed student to go from white to black belt (1-dan) in our dojang. Perhaps an additional 6 or so months if they seek WTF registration from Seoul. Although we try to keep them interested with advanced techniques, preparation for 2-dan (2 or more years away with credit testing inbetween), weapons training, competition team for tournaments, tuition discounts or a free ride with opportunities to instruct, we tend to lose many students once they reach their black belt (1-dan). It's like they graduated from university and are moving on?

We would like to keep more of them enrolled at our school for advancement to 2-dan. Other than those incentives mentioned above, do you know of other ways to keep them based upon your experience? Comments?

Clive

If you love them, let them go...

Seriously, no amount of incentives (short of sex or money) will make people keep training if they don't want to.

Roper

I think once the black belt is viewed as the be all and end all of training that its natural for people to believe thaty've achieved all they can achieve from it.

Clive,
Sex or money you say? Do go on...

Colm_OReilly

I'd agree with Roper. Why are they training? Is there an instrinsic love of the training or something other than learning the techniques required to get the next belt the thing that's keeping them coming back?

Black Swan

Unfortunately, Roper and Colm may be right, that many focus on the extrinsic reward, a symbol lacking intrinsic value. If that be the case, then those that leave, perhaps should?

This belt chase may be an increasing trend? Was told that a few decades ago there were only 4 colours: white, green, brown, and black? Then came the stripes? Now the rainbow?

Then again, there's got to be some value to extrinsic rewards as a motivational tool? What we need to find is a balance?

Cake Fiend

I think a HUGE proportion of people take on a martial art 'to get a black belt'. A small proportion of them stick it out and eventually get their black belt, and realize that it's not what they were looking for after all. So they knock it on the head.

Mola.mola

Very few people take something up at a young age and keep it going through out their adult life. This is an example of a course of activity that had a tangible goal and once the goal is achieved people get closure. People love college and their courses but once they get their qualification they often leave ( or seek higher qualification) do you think they should buzz around longer for the craic?

Millionaire

so me...getting a black belt, was a sign, that I was ready to really start to learn, and improve.

A Black Belt was like the start to me, not the finish.

these days, I do not care for belts.

My 4th dan, does not help when a little thai with no belt, can hammer the crap out of me! so I would rather follow those who can beat me and model what they do/train...rather than belts.

mark.leonard

The belt of course IS the problem; maybe you should move to a system that has no belts?
There is a pretty famous topic on the http://www.nuigalwaytkd.com discussion board "Where have all the fighters gone?" where one black belt student asks why none of the newer students are competing. It spiralled out of control to 6 and a half thousand reads but raised a few interesting points about TKD in general.

Black Swan

Hi Mark!

No belts? Interesting concept. Reminds me of a line from one of the Karate Kid films when someone asked the Kid's master what belt he held. I believe he said a Carmel belt?:D

Just curious. Would a no belt system work for your students and prospective students at NUI-Galway?

If the dojang I instruct at was mine, I might be able to seriously consider a no belt system, but as I am only one of the soldiers and not the master, or the far away grand master (both originally from Korea and WTF), I doubt that there would be much hope in dropping the belt system at our school.

Also, we would have problems when attempting to compete in most of the WTF rules tournaments, where it is clearly specified that an appropriate white debok and belt must be worn in competition.

mark.leonard

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Hi Mark!

No belts? Interesting concept. Reminds me of a line from one of the Karate Kid films when someone asked the Kid's master what belt he held. I believe he said a Carmel belt?:D

Just curious. Would a no belt system work for your students and prospective students at NUI-Galway?

If the dojang I instruct at was mine, I might be able to seriously consider a no belt system, but as I am only one of the soldiers and not the master, or the far away grand master (both originally from Korea and WTF), I doubt that there would be much hope in dropping the belt system at our school.

Also, we would have problems when attempting to compete in most of the WTF rules tournaments, where it is clearly specified that an appropriate white debok and belt must be worn in competition.

In our jiu jitsu club there is absically no belt system, sure Matt runs a blue belt grading once a year, but very few of those training have any interest in it.

In my tkd club I would lose existing belt hunters, but I like to think I would keep people more interested in learning and the training within itself, and I would attract those who would be dissuaded to join by a grading system too.

As for regulations, there is nothing stopping me putting a belt on peopl ethe day of a competiton to correspond to the length of time they are training. Be wary of "regulations" you should stop and wonder why these regulations were made to begin with!

judomick

Judo in Japan has 2 belts white and black, coloured belts are a western invention aimed at keeping kids interested in MA, tbh i think its a good idea on a certain level but way overemphasised(sp) in tma,s and the fact that people can get BB'S so quickly diminishes there true value

dlofnep

I think a belt system is an incentive to train, but it should NOT be the only incentive and probably the least important one. Bettering yourself and your ability should be the number one priority. That's why some gyms who focus on technique and sparring over practicing katas for hours on end for belt grading tend to keep more people over time.

Ph3n0m

I like the way they hold my pants up - no one needs to be subjected to my ass being exposed

Mola.mola

dlofnep wrote:

practicing katas for hours on end for belt grading tend to keep more people over time.

JOB which clubs are you refering to here. I hate it when a MMA guy says what you just said and I hate it when a non-mma guy says "unlike those clubs full of knackers with no respect/budo ethic". JOB you're one of the least people I'd expect to see stuck in the 90s on this forum.

Mola.mola

Ph3n0m wrote:

I like the way they hold my pants up - no one needs to be subjected to my ass being exposed

My belt keeps my jacket shut, it doesn't keep my pants up.

dlofnep

Mola.mola wrote:

JOB which clubs are you refering to here. I hate it when a MMA guy says what you just said and I hate it when a non-mma guy says "unlike those clubs full of knackers with no respect/budo ethic". JOB you're one of the least people I'd expect to see stuck in the 90s on this forum.

Any club I've seen in general. TKD club down here for example. When I was training there years ago - We used to grade every 4 months.. At one stage we didn't grade for about 8 or 9 months and in that time about 10 people left because they weren't grading. Proving that the belt was their only incentive for being there. Meanwhile in the local boxing gym, all the guys in my class were still there with the incentive of a belt. They would get up at 5am every morning to run to maintain weight and not for a belt, but to better themselves.

I'm not in the 90's by any means on this. I think what I said makes perfect sense.

Millionaire

I came up through the belt ranks. Then the head of the kickboxing, he scrapped all belts except for black, and when you reached a level you could spar and hold your own with a back belt, and technique good. he then invited you to test for the black belt.

LAAngel

I've been doing Kickboxing for years but have only got my purple belt, basically cause I left for ages after I had my daughter, I'll be going for my blue belt soon. I do want to reach Black belt but won't be leaving as soon as I get it, there are a number of dan's to get and I entend to get a few, but thats not my main goal, my goal is simple to be known as a 'great fighter' (not there yet) and to hold World Titles and become professional. Some people have the view that because they are a certain belt that they are better than other fighters that are lower belts but I remember my first fight was with a purple belt I was yellow and was only training 3 months and I beat her and other blue belt and came first.

Not everyone has the drive or want to go as far as they can go, but letting them know the level that they can achieve (beyond belts) may encourage them to keep on.

Our club has a number of black belts about 7 or 8 1st dan and a few 2nd, there are more getting ready to go for there black belt too, I think only one has left when they achieved black belt but I think it was more to do with their heart not being in it anymore rather than closure.

On another note I remember a girl (was a few years back) telling me about this girl that was fighting with her and she remarked she was afraid of her, I asked why and she said 'cause she's a black belt in Karate', although I knew that the girl haddn't done karate in about 5 years it seemed she liked to brag about her belt to scare people haha.:p

Millionaire

Hi LAANGEL

In your kickboxing... what would one have to do to get blackbelt?

Like how or what would you be tested on?

Like I am from Kickboxing too, and the way belts were given, was if you could fight well against someone of the belt your going for.... sort of like BJJ.

Though I trained in other kickboxing places, that sort of had a karate style grading system where as well as fighting you had to know things like "the 5 kick blocks", "defences against a right cross" "6 sweeps" sort of 1 Step sparring techniques. and then a heap of sparring during the test too.

I think belts are useful in judo. Lets you know how you should expect of someone in terms of knowledge/randori. That's the point of them really.

LAAngel

Millionaire wrote:

Hi LAANGEL

In your kickboxing... what would one have to do to get blackbelt?

Like how or what would you be tested on?

Hi Millionaire

I haven't actually sat in a full black belt grading, but the main points of it are:
* Techniques - Being to told to do a certain techniques and combinations ie. Spinning Hook kick, jumping defense side kick and Reverse Punch. You also have to be able to sweep and know the certain names for each of the techniques.
* Pads & kickshields - The instuctor tells you want combination to do and you have to do it using the proper technique, speed and strength.
* Self defense - be able to name and do self defense techniques
* Sparring - You have to spar other black belts and high grade fighters, and they have to go flat out on you and you have to go flat out back, no taking it easy at all.

There are other things you have to do (Think you have to instruct lower grades to show you can lead and show techniques properly). There is a year break between grading from your 2nd brown to black belt.

I remember a few ones that graded for black belts recently came out and threw up into bins after it haha:) That'll probably be me too. I wouldn't want someone to go easy on me cause I wouldn't feel as if I earned it, although in our club noone ever goes easy on you .:o

Millionaire

Yes, great...thats proper kickboxing... some sort of ladder I came up.

Train hard... get to the top! :-)

LAAngel

Millionaire wrote:

Yes, great...thats proper kickboxing... some sort of ladder I came up.

Train hard... get to the top! :-)

Your totally right there. I was sparring for the first time since the post concussion last night and decided to do must of my spar's with my coach, he never stops amazing me with the fact its so hard to find an opening with him. He beat me as usual, but I love sparring him cause I learn so much off him, some people are afraid to spar him (he never tries to hurt people, but he pushes you and won't be easy on you if your being lazy) but I find that because its so hard to find openings with him and he knows how to counter attack amazing that when I'm fighting other people I'm starting to find it easier to find the openings with other fighters easier. Thats why I always make sure I get at least 1 spar with him each night at training. I don't see why people stop when they reach a certain belt, cause there is always other things to learn especially off other fighters.

Millionaire do you train in those out door arenas with the tin roof over in thailand? They're supposed to be lethal to train in, I think I'd faint. At training last night the heat was unbelieveable, but I think I'm starting to get used to get cause of dancing, its always roasting in the nightclubs even the people that are just drinking are sweating. God Thailand must be amazing, I heard that you could live like royality for months on a few thousands and still have money left over when you come back.:D