Check min raising in online cash games

NickyOD

What the **** is up with this online? Every second idiot is doing it.
It seems like a very cheap and simple way to take pot control.

For example in a 1-2 cash game I raise to $8 with AcKc. BB cals. Flop comes 8c-Kd-Jd

He checks I bet $12. He min raises to $24. I call. Turn is a blank. He bets $45. I put him on KJ/88 and fold.

did I lose the minimum or fold the best hand?

Very irritating. How do you combat it?

spectre

NickyOD wrote:

What the **** is up with this online? Every second idiot is doing it.
It seems like a very cheap and simple way to take pot control.

For example in a 1-2 cash game I raise to $8 with AcKc. BB cals. Flop comes 8c-Kd-Jd

He checks I bet $12. He min raises to $24. I call. Turn is a blank. He bets $45. I put him on KJ/88 and fold.

did I lose the minimum or fold the best hand?

Very irritating. How do you combat it?

Min raise him back

NickyOD

spectre wrote:

Min raise him back

Why?

spectre

Because it really annoys me when I get check minraised. From some opponents it's an automatic laydown, for others it could mean a flush draw. I find that the reaction to the min reraise will tell you where you are. Note this is at the lower limits only. If he calls, you are probably behind but at least you have control over the pot again and may get a free river card. If he pushes then you fold.

Bandana boy

This is a tricky one and you just need to get some notes on him and which hands he/they do this with
Check min raise looks like a monster and against certain players i will do it with a crappy draw as it can throw them
If its happening "a lot" i might worry that people have notes on you

Gholimoli

Nicky its read dependent.
ive seen ppl do it with even third pair cuz they think their hand has some sort of show down value so they dont want to be bluffed out of the pot.thats why they will either mnin riase your every bet or call it and lead for a min riase on the following street.
most often though its a sign of "i beat one pair..." .
also if it starts on the turn then you can be more sure that one pair in no good.(when they just call your flop bet and min raise the turn).
if you see a player making a habit of it then pot it once and see his reaction .
or else you can get defensive and check call him.you really cant make a general comment though as its really read dependent.

Norwich Fan Rob

i see this a fair bit, and i agree its hard to play, and awful.
for me, a lot depends on whether the player is doing it a lot (some idiots do it nearly every hand), or whether this is the first time hes done it.
If its the first time hes done it, id play it more or less like u did.

someone mention, he might be min raising with a flush draw?, i cant think of ANY single reason why someone would do that..........he could be seeing where he is with a weaker king.

Hectorjelly

Its awfull play and really easy to play against. It means different things for different people.

NickyOD

Another example against the same player.

Idiot limps on the button. SB calls. I make it $10 on the BB with AK.

Flop comes A-8-9 rainbow. I bet $10. He min raises to $20 I call.

Turn is a 2. I check (I probably should have lead the turn) he bets $20. I call. River is a 3. He bets $75. I call. He has A-3.

I think getting min raised is easier to combat when out of position because you can lead the turn.

BTW. I'm a ****ing horrible online cash player

AmarilloFats

Gholimoli wrote:

......really cant make a general comment though as its really read dependent.

Agree. Ive been faced with this alot on party recently, and rarely do they have TPTK beat!!
chk call chk call against some opps
Or check/raise all in turn.

I practically never reraise on the flop.
If I call the minraise I tend to call a turn bet...

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Another example against the same player.

Idiot limps on the button. SB calls. I make it $10 on the BB with AK.

Flop comes A-8-9 rainbow. I bet $10. He min raises to $20 I call.

Turn is a 2. I check (I probably should have lead the turn) he bets $20. I call. River is a 3. He bets $75. I call. He has A-3.

You think this is hard to play against? He may as well turn his cards face up

Lafortezza

NickyOD wrote:

Another example against the same player.

Idiot limps on the button. SB calls. I make it $10 on the BB with AK.

Flop comes A-8-9 rainbow. I bet $10. He min raises to $20 I call.

I've been playing quite a bit of NL$100 lately and this is about 90% villain has Ax and is testing to see how much you like your Ax or if you were just C-betting. Reraise him back but not a big amount, he'll call most of the time. Lead turn.

AmarilloFats

NickyOD wrote:

Another example against the same player.

Idiot limps on the button. SB calls. I make it $10 on the BB with AK.

Flop comes A-8-9 rainbow. I bet $10. He min raises to $20 I call.

Turn is a 2. I check (I probably should have lead the turn) he bets $20. I call. River is a 3. He bets $75. I call. He has A-3.

I think getting min raised is easier to combat when out of position because you can lead the turn.

BTW. I'm a ****ing horrible online cash player

Well at least now you have a better idea of what it means..
I would usually make it more than 5BB in the example above..Then a full pot bet on flop, you know this of course...

Gholimoli

lafortezza wrote:

I've been playing quite a bit of NL$100 lately and this is about 90% villain has Ax and is testing to see how much you like your Ax or if you were just C-betting. Reraise him back but not a big amount, he'll call most of the time. Lead turn.

i dont think most people at this level are that advanced to raise for information to see how much you the opponent likes his hand.the riase is simply becuase they like thier hand ,the problem is they like Ax just as much as two pair etc .

bill_ashmount

Hectorjelly wrote:

You think this is hard to play against? He may as well turn his cards face up

LMFAO

ocallagh

NickyOD wrote:

Another example against the same player.

Idiot limps on the button. SB calls. I make it $10 on the BB with AK.

Flop comes A-8-9 rainbow. I bet $10. He min raises to $20 I call.

Turn is a 2. I check (I probably should have lead the turn) he bets $20. I call. River is a 3. He bets $75. I call. He has A-3.

I think getting min raised is easier to combat when out of position because you can lead the turn.

BTW. I'm a ****ing horrible online cash player

As Robbie said it all depends on the player you are up against! But generally at 1/2 or 2/4 in the situation above I'd re-raise the min-raiser at least 2/3rds the pot. If not on the flop Id definitely find out where I was on the turn.. If they play back strong I think you have to give them credit for the set.. most importantly find out where you are in the hand at this stage. If they have the set, you lose 70 or so on the flop/turn.. but by check calling it down with AK you wil probably lose more. If he doesn't have the set don't worry about him coming over the top with A3 on the flop and having to release your hand.. he won't. And if he calls 2/3rds the pot with A3 happy days. Sorry - the above is badly written.. but the general idea is to define your hand and more importantly his hand!

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

You think this is hard to play against? He may as well turn his cards face up

He does the same thing with a set or JT.

fuzzbox

NickyOD wrote:

He does the same thing with a set or JT.

So CRAI on the turn

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

He does the same thing with a set or JT.

I doubt he gets the frequencies right!

On the flop he check min raises to let you know he has an ace. Now he might have A8 or A9 but thats unlikely. If he is the type to never fold an ace, and many are, just 3 bet all in here. If he isnt that stupid call. Note that he only raised you a little here, basically the minimum

Turn is fine, he bets 20, which is tiny. So he still has an ace

River he blasts it for 70. At this point he is either bluffing or has a strong hand. Most ppl dont bluff like this (maybe noone) and allthough its possible he had JT thats the only possible draw and again its unlikely. This is a pretty easy fold if your playing well (which most of the time Im not).

Basically the reason his line (and chk min raising in situations like this) is so bad is because he is letting us know the strength of his hand to a very accurate degree at every stage of the hand, thereby letting us play close to perfectly against his range.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

He does the same thing with a set or JT.

fuzzbox wrote:

So CRAI on the turn

c/r all in because his range includes sets and straight draws? The draw will sometimes check the turn behind so mostly when he bets he will have his Ax or a set, this seems like a really bad line. Or if it is a good line this is definitely not the reason why. Also more importantly you are in position in Nicky's hand.

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

c/r all in because his range includes sets and straight draws? The draw will sometimes check the turn behind so mostly when he bets he will have his Ax or a set, this seems like a really bad line. Or if it is a good line this is definitely not the reason why. Also more importantly you are in position in Nicky's hand.

He either does this line with Ax/JT/set, or he has some narrower range. If its Ax/JT/set, then shove the turn when he bets.

There are 2 hands on discussion as far as I could see
1. Raise AK, flop KJ8 twotone, get c/minraise, call, and he bets turn and nicky folds

2. Raise AK, flop A89, bet, get minraised behind us, call, and check/call small bet on turn and check/call big bet on river.

If he minraises draws and worse aces, then 3-bet and be happy to get all-in (assuming he checks behind if you call), or you can call, and lead hard on a blank turn, or you can check/raise all in on the turn, if he always bets the turn.

Nicky said that this guy (in hand 2) takes the same line with set/JT/Ax, so CRAI.

But the guy is a craphead and shouldnt be difficult to beat. HJ is pretty spot on about his pathetic bet sizes. The river is a fold given how it was played (or lead yourself for half pot might be a good play, as he calls with Ax often, but checks behind unless he improves to 2pair+).

RoundTower

OK I confused the two hands. I would prefer to lead the turn big in the A89 one, he will call with Ax or JT anyway but he might not bet those hands and he might fold to a check raise. If you can be sure he takes the same line (bets small on turn instead of check behind) with JT then by all means c/r. But yeah it can't be hard to beat this guy.

Imposter

I'm seeing this a lot too at 1/2 and I don't think it's as easy to play against as people are making out.

I think a lot of the time it's an attempt to snap off a continuation bet, especially on a low board. In most cases a reraise here or on his turn bet gets him to fold.

On a board with higher cards it seems to be a case that either he caught something and is seeing how much you like your hand or that he thinks you're raising too much nad he can take you off the pot.

If you watch the guys who use this a lot they target a particular type of player (ok most non LAG players fall into this mould! - one that puts in a continuation bet on the flop in pretty much every hand they've raised preflop but also someone who will only continue if they've hit or had a big hand to begin with). Winning the money already in the pot a little more than 50% of the time is enough to make this play work. Occasionally the min-raiser will also have a hand which sets him up nicely for a big pot.

As for a counterstrategy it's hard to know what to do as you can't really play back with nothing and if you have something the problem is when do you raise him! Leaving it late leaves you prone to getting outdrawn but there's a fair chance he's folding if you bet. If he plays back at you you've got some very tough decisions.

accensi0n

It can be a monster too.

[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Hand Start.
[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Seat 1 : gussy2006 has $59.06
[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Seat 2 : MrNatet has $124.25
[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Seat 3 : engy17 has $77.75
[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Seat 4 : mits1 has $61.25
[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Seat 5 : hero has $92
[Jun 28 21:23:33] : Seat 6 : villian has $84.59
[Jun 28 21:23:34] : engy17 is the dealer.
[Jun 28 21:23:35] : mits1 posted small blind.
[Jun 28 21:23:35] : hero posted big blind.
[Jun 28 21:23:35] : Game [120036] started with 6 players.
[Jun 28 21:23:35] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jun 28 21:23:35] : Seat 5 : hero has Qh Qc
[Jun 28 21:23:37] : villian called $1
[Jun 28 21:23:42] : gussy2006 called $1
[Jun 28 21:23:44] : MrNatet folded.
[Jun 28 21:23:45] : engy17 folded.
[Jun 28 21:23:47] : mits1 called $0.50
[Jun 28 21:23:50] : hero raised $5
[Jun 28 21:23:53] : villian called $5
[Jun 28 21:23:57] : gussy2006 folded.
[Jun 28 21:23:58] : mits1 folded.
[Jun 28 21:23:59] : Dealing flop.
[Jun 28 21:23:59] : Board cards [2c 9s 2h]
[Jun 28 21:24:08] : hero bet $8
[Jun 28 21:24:10] : villian called $8
[Jun 28 21:24:10] : Dealing turn.
[Jun 28 21:24:10] : Board cards [2c 9s 2h 9d]
[Jun 28 21:24:15] : hero checked.
[Jun 28 21:24:17] : bigspud checked.
[Jun 28 21:24:18] : Dealing river.
[Jun 28 21:24:18] : Board cards [2c 9s 2h 9d 9h]
[Jun 28 21:24:33] : It's your turn.
[Jun 28 21:24:33] : hero has 10 seconds to respond.
[Jun 28 21:24:34] : hero bet $10
[Jun 28 21:24:37] : villian called $10 and raised $10
[Jun 28 21:24:40] : hero called $10
[Jun 28 21:24:41] : Showdown!
[Jun 28 21:24:41] : Seat 5 : hero has Qh Qc
[Jun 28 21:24:43] : Seat 6 : villian has 9c Kh
[Jun 28 21:24:43] : villian has Four of a kind: 9s
[Jun 28 21:24:43] : villian wins $67 with Four of a kind: 9s
[Jun 28 21:24:52] : Hand is over.


Comments on my play also appreciated.

Oh and does the hand history look terrible? Is there a good way of making it more friendly on the eyes?

Hectorjelly

There are many different types of min raise. Min raising the river is very different to the ones Nicky posted, also if you raise preflop, bet the flop and then the turn before getting minraised you will nearly always be up against a set. You played the QQ hand well accension, your opponent played it badly.

Hitman Actual

Here's a link to an interesting Pooh-Bah post over on 2+2 SSNL about playing oop, covering flop min-raises a few paragraphs down. Might be some help.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6118959&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1