3/6 cash 6 max

Gholimoli

3/6 cash hand 6 max…

Villain is very active from the button. he is a decent player and by no means a donkey.
He can play a wide range of hands and play them well.
He has stole my SB a few times in which case I had no objections.
Out only history this session has been when he made it 26 from button after a UTG limper.
I had Ako on the SB and I flat called.limper folds.
Flop was AJ8r I check /he checks. Turn was 2 ,I check he checks/river was 2 I bet 20 and he called showing TT.

Hand:
Folded to the villain on the button who makes it 21.
Im the SB with 56h and I decide to reraise him so I make it 60.
Villain thinks along time before calling so I can see he was trying another steal attempt

Flop(126)
234 with 2 spades

hero ?

stacks
villain 800
hero 600

ianmc38

2/3 - 3/4 pot looks good here. 2 spades is more than enough for my liking.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

2/3 - 3/4 pot looks good here. 2 spades is more than enough for my liking.

how would you play it if it was a rainbow flop.
take in to considration the AK hand that happend shortly before this.

eoghan104

Id make a 1/2 pot sized bet in order to make it look like a continuation bet then if he raises id take a bit of time to just flat call.

id check raise the turn and bet out on the river to confuse him. hes never gona put you on that hand so you might get paid by a medium kinda hand.

To be honest i wouldnt be playing stakes that high but thats just what i would do anyway but maybe not a great idea at the bigger tables.......

Gholimoli

eoghan104 wrote:

Id make a 1/2 pot sized bet in order to make it look like a continuation bet then if he raises id take a bit of time to just flat call.

id check raise the turn and bet out on the river to confuse him. hes never gona put you on that hand so you might get paid by a medium kinda hand.

To be honest i wouldnt be playing stakes that high but thats just what i would do anyway but maybe not a great idea at the bigger tables.......

he has seen me just call his raise with AK and i was out of position and then just check it to him on multiple streets when i had TPTK.
he is no donkey ,i have reraised his raise out of position indicating strenaght of lots.he puts me on AA,KK,AK here.
if i bet out here he is not going to carry on with the hand unless he has at least two pair or a set.
also i i bet out and he raises and i just flat call ,i cant check/raise the turn because he is not going to raise the turn if i check.if he raises the flop it will be most liekly to get a free river card.so if i check to him on the turn he will most likely check behind.

Ste05

Bet half the pot and see what he does... if he has a hand then great, if he doesn't, I can't see him trying to bluff as he didn't in the AK hand. Another reason for betting is to build the pot, and disguise your hand...

Lafortezza

Gholimoli wrote:

he has seen me just call his raise with AK and i was out of position and then just check it to him on multiple streets when i had TPTK.
he is no donkey ,i have reraised his raise out of position indicating strenaght of lots.he puts me on AA,KK,AK here.
if i bet out here he is not going to carry on with the hand unless he has at least two pair or a set.
also i i bet out and he raises and i just flat call ,i cant check/raise the turn because he is not going to raise the turn if i check.if he raises the flop it will be most liekly to get a free river card.so if i check to him on the turn he will most likely check behind.

If you check the flop, how likely is it that he will bet, putting you on AK/AQ? If you bet the flop how likely is it that he will raise with 99-QQ?
I'd bet 2/3 of the pot. You want to get as much value as possible so bet now instead of slowplaying.

eoghan104

So do you think its best to check the flop? i would percieve that as strength where as if you bet out he could think its a continuation bet with AK.......

Basically though as you say he has to put you on a big hand and without hitting a set ( i dont think he could have 2 pair here) he is probabley done with the hand so its hard to extract anymore.......

what did you do and how did it turn out??

Ste05

Checking here is terrible IMO, IF he bets that's all your getting out of him, if you call or check/raise, until he outdraws you.

Gholimoli

lafortezza wrote:

If you check the flop, how likely is it that he will bet, putting you on AK/AQ? If you bet the flop how likely is it that he will raise with 99-QQ?
I'd bet 2/3 of the pot. You want to get as much value as possible so bet now instead of slowplaying.

TBH i think to him my range is AA,KK,AK.
i thought if i bet he is well capable of even folding JJ or maybe even QQ here.
obviously i wanted to build the pot to extract most value from the hand but i felt a bet will make him go away almost every time.i thought i give him on shot to catch up .
i checked and he checked behind.
flop was J none spade.

i bet out the pot.to my surprise i got raised hlaf the pot.
i had him on either JTs or JJ, two pait was also possible or maybe a small set.
i moved in for another 400+ or so and he called instantly with JJ.
he didnt improve and i won.
comments?

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

Checking here is terrible IMO, IF he bets that's all your getting out of him, if you call or check/raise, until he outdraws you.

Given the history and how the other hand and this hand played out I don’t think checking is bad at all.
Think about it,I have told him pre-flop that I have AA,KK,AK .so that what he think I have.
Now flop comes 234 and I bet out.
He will fold almost anything.
Even if my check extracts one more bet from him(if he tries to bluff at the pot) its better than no bet at all. Cuz if I bet he is just gonna let it go with out two pair or a set and if he has one of them he will bet when I check and will also call my check/raise.
If I had something like 78 here then I would bet cuz he puts me on big pairs and I can prob get him to lay down a lot of hands that has me beat.

eoghan104

well it worked out very nicely but i dont think he folds jacks there on the flop for anything up to a pot sized bet. Basically you were getting paid on this hand regardless............. just another rare hand where u catch a great flop with muck and get paid.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

Villain thinks along time before calling so I can see he was trying another steal attempt

Jesus. Stealing with pocket jacks? Nice hand to steal with. Puts my 47s specials to shame.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

Given the history and how the other hand and this hand played out I don’t think checking is bad at all.

Well if we're looking at results, exactly what do you think happens here if he doesn't catch this J, or what would have happened if a Q, K, or A fell on the turn, or the flush completes, etc. etc.

The fact that you didn't bet with TPTK last time would make this guy more wary of a check (as it did :rolleyes: ) then a bet here...

kickintheteeth

moral of the story, jj either steals the blinds, or busts ur whole stack.

FACT

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

Well if we're looking at results, exactly what do you think happens here if he doesn't catch this J, or what would have happened if a Q, K, or A fell on the turn, or the flush completes, etc. etc.

The fact that you didn't bet with TPTK last time would make this guy more wary of a check (as it did :rolleyes: ) then a bet here...

it has nothing to do with results Ste,if i bet out his gonna fold alot of hands that have a chance of improving yet i still beat.
also he has more of a reason to protect his JJ here with a bet if so wishes.but if i bet out he will fold.

ianmc38

I don't think he's folding jacks on that flop. Ste's analysis above is also correct he's seen you check two streets already with TPTK so a check looks suspicious. Bet 2/3 pot, looks like a standard AK continuation bet....

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't think he's folding jacks on that flop. Ste's analysis above is also correct he's seen you check two streets already with TPTK so a check looks suspicious. Bet 2/3 pot, looks like a standard AK continuation bet....

My checks on those street were not a trapping check. I didn’t want to play a large pot out of position with TPTK when there was a AJ8 and 2 on the turn put a flush draw there.
I wasn’t trying to trap him.
He understood that .he didn’t see it as a tricky trap play by me.
Here ive told him “I know im out of position, I know you have raised showing strength, I know we are both deep, but I want to play a big pot with my hand”.
I don’t think he will see my flop bet as a continuation bet here.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

My checks on those street were not a trapping check. I didn’t want to play a large pot out of position with TPTK when there was a AJ8 and 2 on the turn put a flush draw there.
I wasn’t trying to trap him.
He understood that .he didn’t see it as a tricky trap play by me.
Here ive told him “I know im out of position, I know you have raised showing strength, I know we are both deep, but I want to play a big pot with my hand”.
I don’t think he will see my flop bet as a continuation bet here.

So are you basically telling us there was no way for you to get more money out of him unless he hit a trips or a flush on the turn/river??

How exactly did you intend stacking him if he didn't hit this J??

Or were you just after an extra 1/2 - 2/3 pot bet from him on the turn/river, assuming he hadn't outdrawn you??

fuzzbox

Bet 100 and hope he likes his hand.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

So are you basically telling us there was no way for you to get more money out of him unless he hit a trips or a flush on the turn/river??

How exactly did you intend stacking him if he didn't hit this J??

Or were you just after an extra 1/2 - 2/3 pot bet from him on the turn/river, assuming he hadn't outdrawn you??

i didnt plan on stacking him.however the way to get most value from the hand on avrage is to check IMO.obviously if he didnt catch the J i would not stack him but if i hadnt check he would not have gotten there.
also if i hadnt checked he may have bet some crap hand as a steal attemp but he wouldnt do it with anything that he thought would have any show down value like JJ which he would most likely fold to my bet.

MrPillowTalk

I would bet the flop allmost every time, but my image would mean I wouldnt be put on only AA KK AK, even so his flat call has more or less told us he has an overpair to that flop if you bet 3/4 pot he will very probably raise to see where he is at then when you push you either pick up a nice pot or else can post in the bad beat/wow forum.

I like calling from the sb with this hand against a button raise but Im not crazy on raising it out of position.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

i didnt plan on stacking him.

Then why did you re-raise Pre-Flop?? EDIT: Obviously to pick off a steal attempt!!

Gholimoli wrote:

however the way to get most value from the hand on avrage is to check IMO.

Couldn't disagree more...

Gholimoli wrote:

obviously if he didnt catch the J i would not stack him but if i hadnt check he would not have gotten there.

How do you know??

Gholimoli wrote:

also if i hadnt checked he may have bet some crap hand as a steal attemp but he wouldnt do it with anything that he thought would have any show down value like JJ which he would most likely fold to my bet.

We haven't been shown any history of him trying to steal pots against you thus far... Especially since he called your re-raise Pre-Flop, he doesn't have rags...

If he had a hand with showdown value, why wouldn't he call a 1/2 - 2/3 Pot bet on the flop??

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

Then why did you re-raise Pre-Flop?? EDIT: Obviously to pick off a steal attempt!!



Couldn't disagree more...


How do you know??

We haven't been shown any history of him trying to steal pots against you thus far... Especially since he called your re-raise Pre-Flop, he doesn't have rags...

If he had a hand with showdown value, why wouldn't he call a 1/2 - 2/3 Pot bet on the flop??

when i said i didnt plan on stacking him,i meant after the flop it would be pretty hard to stack him.

on your second point that you couldnt disagree more,well thats what the whole argument is about.
as i said with my image and my range here from villains point of view(AA,KK,AK) betting will not get me much on avrage while checking allows him to improve yet still be behind me.

your third question was "how do i know i couldnt stack him if he didnt get the J" well as i said he is not a donkey and he dosent get stacked here with JJ with the way the hand was played out.


when i said show down value i meant cheap showdown.
i dont think this player would pay off a 2/3 bet with JJ here often at all.he would have no problem folding it.i think the fact that he checked after me shows that he dosent think much of his JJ at all.
also as for him trying to steal pots against me ,he raised alot on the button ,i just didnt call his raises execpt for 2 times.
say if he has something like T9 here he may have bet try to steal if i check to him but he would deffo fold it if i bet.

ianmc38

Do you think he's calling your preflop raise for set value? That's his only reason for folding to a bet on that flop.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Do you think he's calling your preflop raise for set value? That's his only reason for folding to a bet on that flop.

absolutly why wouldnt he,look how deep we both are.he has to call 40 for a chance of making 600+.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

your third question was "how do i know i couldnt stack him if he didnt get the J" well as i said he is not a donkey and he dosent get stacked here with JJ with the way the hand was played out.

I was more referring to how do you know he wouldn't have called a flop bet here, (apologies, it was a bit vague), and I'm sure your answer is based on your image, and how he'll fold JJ here, but I honestly think that on this flop, he's not going to fold to a 70-90 bet... After all he called a re-raise pre-flop, was he hoping to catch a J, or was he hoping for a low flop. We'll never know now, but certainly I'd be betting here about 100% of the time, having said that (along with MrPT), my image would be alot wider than AA, KK, AK, to re-raise in the SB against a button stealer...

Also with a flop like this, you really should be going for stacks, here's a question for you, what would you have done on this flop if you had re-raised with 78s, AK, 1010, or QQ???

Hectorjelly

Gholi, the fact he hit a set is irrelevent. If you bet the flop there is a very small chance he is folding to a flop bet anyway. The only way to win a bigish pot against an unimproved JJ is to convince him that you have AK, and most people will bet out with AK there.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

I was more referring to how do you know he wouldn't have called a flop bet here, (apologies, it was a bit vague), and I'm sure your answer is based on your image, and how he'll fold JJ here, but I honestly think that on this flop, he's not going to fold to a 70-90 bet... After all he called a re-raise pre-flop, was he hoping to catch a J, or was he hoping for a low flop. We'll never know now, but certainly I'd be betting here about 100% of the time, having said that (along with MrPT), my image would be alot wider than AA, KK, AK, to re-raise in the SB against a button stealer...

Also with a flop like this, you really should be going for stacks, here's a question for you, what would you have done on this flop if you had re-raised with 78s, AK, 1010, or QQ???

Ste,
obviously i would love to go for stacks here but it is hard to say the least.
also you seem to think because he called my reraise pre-flop then he cant have junk.
while he cant have junk but his range is very wide becuase we are so deep and he has huge impplied odds.
but he would fold most of his range to my bet on the flop i think ,while he may bluff/semi bluff with some of them .the times that he has flopped something like two pair or a set ,he will call/raise any bet from but he woud also bet it him self as well allowing me to check/raise if i so wish.
with all the hands you mentioned i would most likely bet out except maybe TT
i dont understand the question though?

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

Gholi, the fact he hit a set is irrelevent. If you bet the flop there is a very small chance he is folding to a flop bet anyway. The only way to win a bigish pot against an unimproved JJ is to convince him that you have AK, and most people will bet out with AK there.

HJ,
i donno he has JJ there.if i was sure he has JJ its a different story but he could have 66,77,88,99,78,9T etc.

fuzzbox

Gholi, who cares what he thinks ... bet the flop

You sure as hell arent going to get paid off by 88 by checking.