Improving aerobic fitness

quozl

I'm planning on improving my aerobic fitness by increasing the distance I run and specifically by increasing a long run.

I've been trying to read up on what I should be doing, it seems that I've been running too quickly previously and not long enough.

I'd generally run 30 minutes at about 8:50 minute miles. However from reading up it seems I ought to be trying to stay around 70% max heart rate for my training runs and running longer.

The problem with that is that even if I keep my HR at 75% i'm only able to do about 4.5mph, and that slows down as the distance run goes up! Should I keep doing this over progressively longer times (my last run was 85 minutes) and will my speed at that heartrate go up over time? I don't want to spend 8-12 weeks running at this annoyingly slow pace and it then to turn out to have been a complete waste of time.

I'm worried it'll actually make me slower!

Thanks guys

Maars

Slow running is crucial. It is slow running that causes capillarisation in the specific running muscles as well as muscular enzyme and mitochondrial production. The effect of these changes is to make your running muscles more efficient...which is of course what you want.

Faster work on the other hand will improve lactate shuttling and VO2 max etc but without a good base of slow work your capabilities will be limited.

The coaching analogy is to think of building a pyramid, you can only build as high as the base permits.

Also with regard to working out your heart rate targets for runs - the only truly accurate way to do this is to get a VO2 max test done. But as a better alternative to just working off % of your max heart rate (as it seems you are doing), I'd direct you towards Heart Rate Reserve (HRR).
To calculate 70% of HRR:
Min HR + 70%*(Max HR - Min HR)

All the best with your training.

quozl

thanks a lot Maars. That's the kind of information I'm looking for.

Andrew_M

One question, im also trying to improve fitness, lack of info is my problem.

Can anyone recommed any good sites which give you info about max heart rate and fat burning zones....

I bought a cheap heart rate monitor, but was fairly uncomfortable and gave erratic readings... so ill invest in a good one once i know what i should be doing with it.

Started going to the gym about 2 months ago, and i feel fitter for it, but id like to get into the science of it and know exactly what im doing. Im 23, 6'2, 89kg, ive always been in good enough shape, but i want to get in great shape. My regualr work out in the gym is:

Threadmill for 20mins, 5mins @ 10.5, next 5mins @ 11.5, 12.5, next 4min @ 13.5, then the last min sprint at 20

Rowing machine: 2km @ highest resistence

Core exercises, 30mins

Squats: 3x30

Machines 30mins, 15 reps light weight, 10 heavier and as many 5 reps as close to body weight as i can mange, do different machines each day but same routine

Sauna 10mins, and then relax in the pool and do a few lenghts

Ive heard great things about cross-trainers so im going to give that a go in the morning, someone was telling me about a sprint-8 programme that they swear by. My goal is all-round great fitness and also to look good.

What do yawl advise just increasing my workout or something else to get fitter?

Plan on running the Dublin City Marathon, i did it before when i was 19 without any training and the damn thing almost killed me, finished it in 5hours which is crap, so want to do much better this time

Any advice would be much appreciated

Thanks

Andrew

Maars

Andrew if you are specifically training for the marathon or even just want to have a good crack at one then I'd direct you to my previous post on this thread about slow running. Lots of long slow distance will make up over 90% of your training for a marathon.

With regard to your other training, the important thing to ask yourself before doing any exercise is "How will this benefit me?", I think you could make this easier for yourself by defining some goals.

The rowing machine is a great piece of kit but it sounds to me like you are just getting on it and rowing like the clappers. I would apply the same logic to training on the rower as with running, there is a lot more to be gained from doing long slow distance. Also as a serious NB. There is nothing to be gained from rowing at the max resistence level, the machine itself automatically adjusts the read-out it gives by taking into account the resistence level you are on. The best rowers out there row at a resistence level of about 3 or 4 as this most accurately reflects the "feel" of a real boat. Also there is less chance of giving yourself back problems and more chance of you lasting longer than the 8 minutes or so it takes you to do the 2k!

With regard your weight training, well it seems a bit haphazard (no offense) but it sounds to me like you need to write down a program for yourself - again time to define some goals. Also do as much as you can on free weights rather than machines. Free weights engage the auxiliary muscles far better. But make sure your form is good.

Finally....Sauna?

Hope that helps.

Andrew_M

Cool thanks, ill try the slow running for a bit and see how i get on, as for the sauna, only go there to check out the chicks:D

audreyp

Sorry reviving a very old thread! I recently had a V02 max test and to my surprise i'm a superior athlete, who would have known :-) Anyway I'm training for my first marathon and after a nasty flu in February and a hip injury in April where I was out for 5 weeks I felt like I was going backwards. Clearly I was doing something wrong, even before I was injured I felt like I was getting slower not faster. So on Tuesday I had a V02 max test and it told me my heart rate zones and where I should run on my long runs and what zone to be in on my speed sessions. I went out for a 14.2K run yesterday and I kept within my endurance zone so for me <165. It was great, felt like I could have run at that pace forever. It was tough to stay below it because at some points actually felt a bit bored but the Wicklow 200 distracted me nicely. So my question is I know from the thread above that slow running is very important but as my pace was 8m a KM it was very very slow. Should I start to see an improvement in this time and how long could this take?

And how should I deal with races, i'm hoping to do a half marathon in about 6-8 weeks should I stick with my heart rate <165 for the entire thing or should I push it in a race?

I have a 5K and 5 mile in the mean time too and since these are short should i just go out and leg it or should I follow heart rate guidelines for these too?

Any advice is much appreciated!

Thanks!!

rom

A normal rule of thumb is 50 beats under your max for aerobic training zone. What your V02 max? A high V02 max is not very beneficial to endurance events.

8min/km is about 12.9mins/mile for the old crowd on here.

You may want to read this http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

Personally I started training like this back in early 2012 and started off at 12min/mile. Had a PB of 23:10 for 5k/ 82mins for 10M at the time.

Its a long road but it will be 6-8 weeks before you start to see a real change and you can introduce speed work. Then about 9 months later this effort level came down to 9mins/mile at the same effort level (HR 144). Ran 3:18. A year later (2012) this was 8:20/mile, ran 3:04. April this year it was 7:40-7:50min/mile easy pace, ran 2:58 . Since then I have regressed a bit due to post marathon lack of motivation but I have got my mojo back now Its a long road but worth it.

Of course this is only one side of training but a very important part and more important than the fast stuff if you are targeting marathons as an A race.

Best of luck with your journey. You should start a log as you are going to have lots of fun watching all your hard work pay off.

audreyp

Great thanks so much! I'm glad to hear its not a huge amount slower than you. 12 minute miles seemed so long when i'm seeing people hit much faster in my club. I work in speed sessions and intervals twice a week and I hit my max heart rate most of the time. My max heart rate I have seen on my garmin is 193 but the v02 max test said it was 186. I imagine my garmin is slightly off since I have seen some crazy spikes up to 220 before I even started running sometimes.

I probably should have started this training earlier than 16 weeks before the marathon though!!! I had read everywhere that running slowly is very important but of course I thought I knew better and managed to keep making myself fatigued so hopefully this will help.

Thanks again for your advice, it's great to know someone has been through this and that it worked.

Finnt

Was actually thinking about this today, do you do any speed work when your base building?

walshb

rom wrote: »

A normal rule of thumb is 50 beats under your max for aerobic training zone. What your V02 max? A high V02 max is not very beneficial to endurance events.

8.

I always thought that a high reading, like in the 70s and 80s, and for some, even the 90s that this was a good sign for endurance sports?

rom

Finnt wrote: »

Was actually thinking about this today, do you do any speed work when your base building?

The way I did it initially was no speed sessions during the first 6 weeks. My max was 194. I set my watch to beep at 145 and ran as much as I could over those 6 weeks, singles and doubles. Was doing up to 9-10 hrs at a very slow pace for the full week.

The one thing is that you will feel tired and not to reward yourself with sugary food but a proper recovery meal afterwards. Once you start to introduce speed sessions back in the pace during the 6 weeks will be the pace you run on non session days.

Finnt

Might do something similar during December and January if it's all about heart rate could you, substitute some of the runs for the stationary bike?

dna_leri

A good article in VO2max here:

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/is-vo2-max-worth-spending-for/

audreyp

Great thanks! Thank you for all the responses. I can't find anything online about racing and heart rates though. So if I'm running a half 10 mile or half marathon should I keep under my threshold or should I just always go faster in races?

I was told with a 5k to just leg it! But how about a 10K?

walshb

audreyp wrote: »

I was told with a 5k to just leg it! But how about a 10K?

Just leg it?:) I don't think you'll get far! 5 k would require some efficient pacing.

audreyp

Well obviously pace myself a bit but not to worry about staying below threshold and all that Though I always go out too fast. I get caught up in all the excitement!!

inigo

My limited experience:

I read Maffetone's 'Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing' during Christmas. Maffetone is an American medical doctor with some interesting ideas to say the least. Controversies aside (which you can find aplenty), he advocates a holistic approach to the whole thing, including reducing sources of stress, a healthy diet and more to the point having a strong aerobic base as crucial to health and performance, not only in sports but in any field. The whole and general idea still makes a lot of sense to me. Similarly to Noakes, he too questions the significance of VO2 max and the brainless model.

In order to build a strong aerobic base, Maffetone proposes running below a specific heart rate determined by applying his 180 formula (google maffetone 180 formula) and never going above it during as many weeks as necessary. How long will depend on your level of fitness, which in some cases could be a shock. In my case this (139) was pretty close to the conversational pace I'd read about in so many places. So in January I started not running but jogging very slowly, even walking up the slightest hills. At least I was not just walking all the way... I'm talking about 6-7min/km or 10-11min/mile!! At the beginning I thought it was crazy slow but stuck to it for about a month. I then decided I couldn't just 'run' like that and introduced one trail/hill run a week in which I would walk up and run down trying not to be above my threshold for too long. I then started to do the MAF tests (again google for explanation) and began to see some improvement, which basically means that as your aerobic base strengthens you have to make more of an effort, e.g. increase speed, to reach your threshold.

After a few months, in which I made some pretty dramatic changes to my diet, I lost about 6kg (from 70!) and my resting heart rate has gone down from over 70 to just over 60. I can now jog up some hills in the Dublin and Wicklow mountains and have come to love my long slow runs, which I can now take to just over half marathon distance (even though I feel I could at least double that). As a test I run my first parkrun a couple of weeks ago and run a solid 4:30min/km for a pb of just below 22:30 from my previous of over 25min! I felt absolutely ecstatic! However, I hope that by running that slow I'm teaching/forcing my body to use more fat as fuel because I'm more interested in the endurance aspect of running long distances for longer periods of time as opposed to shorter distances and faster speeds.

Still a long way to go, plenty of scope to strengthen my aerobic base, but I seem to be going in the right direction in preparation for my first ever marathon along the Causeway Coast in September (unless the more experienced runners here think otherwise!).

Maffeton in a nutshell here.

Clearlier

rom wrote: »

A normal rule of thumb is 50 beats under your max for aerobic training zone. What your V02 max? A high V02 max is not very beneficial to endurance events.

Although maxHR - 50 beats will put you in the ball park a percentage of your max HR is very little extra work and I believe a bit more accurate.

Whatever way that you do it though the initial emphasis should see you err on the side of too slow rather that too fast. As audrey did a Vo2 max test though she should have a graph showing her lactate profile and it should be as clear as day what heart rate she should keep below.

A general point:
Absolute numbers are unimportant in terms of athletic performance. Also there's no point in comparing your data to that of anyone else. The only point of comparison is yourself but it's a very interesting one as per rom's experience of being able to travel much more quickly for the same effort levels.

walshb wrote: »

I always thought that a high reading, like in the 70s and 80s, and for some, even the 90s that this was a good sign for endurance sports?

If you haven't got a high Vo2 max then it's less likely that you'll be an elite athlete but a high Vo2 max certainly does not mean that you will be an elite athlete. There are other contributing factors such as running economy that make a very significant contribution and it's the product of all of the different factor that make the athlete. So, yes a high reading is probably a good sign but it's not strictly necessary and certainly not sufficient.

Audrey, the link that rom posted to Hadd training is a longish read but well worth putting the time in for. If it doesn't convince you of the value of training at slower paces nothing will.

Edit: Just wanted to add that somebody I coach completed a Lactate Profile and VO2 max test recently and I have the report in front of me. Although I've scanned the report a couple of times and adjust his plan according to the results from it I had to go back to it to see what his VO2 max is. It's just not interesting for the purposes of training somebody for a marathon.

audreyp

I'm about half way through the hadd link and its very interesting. Trying to sneak in pages between work. I'm lucky I have a good seat so the bosses don't know exactly how much time I spend looking at running websites I'm very interested in it. And after my last long run on Sunday and my first one running <165 heart rate i'm surprised how quickly I recovered from it. I normally would do my long runs on Saturday and on Saturday night and some of Sunday be a wreck. Tired and achy and all that. But after Sunday I was fine and well able for my running club on Monday. So i'm definitely convinced. Hoping it will show some good results soon and the consensus seems to be 6-8 weeks. Is it OK to do speed work too as well as long slow runs or should it all be slow?

walshb

Clearlier wrote: »

If you haven't got a high Vo2 max then it's less likely that you'll be an elite athlete but a high Vo2 max certainly does not mean that you will be an elite athlete. There are other contributing factors such as running economy that make a very significant contribution and it's the product of all of the different factor that make the athlete. So, yes a high reading is probably a good sign but it's not strictly necessary and certainly not sufficient.

I agree. It's not a guarantee that a high reading mans you are going to be a good to great distance runner, but it's a start and a sign.

I think middle distance athletes are in the high 70s.

SWL

rom wrote: »

A normal rule of thumb is 50 beats under your max for aerobic training zone. What your V02 max? A high V02 max is not very beneficial to endurance events.

8min/km is about 12.9mins/mile for the old crowd on here.

You may want to read this http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

Personally I started training like this back in early 2012 and started off at 12min/mile. Had a PB of 23:10 for 5k/ 82mins for 10M at the time.

Its a long road but it will be 6-8 weeks before you start to see a real change and you can introduce speed work. Then about 9 months later this effort level came down to 9mins/mile at the same effort level (HR 144). Ran 3:18. A year later (2012) this was 8:20/mile, ran 3:04. April this year it was 7:40-7:50min/mile easy pace, ran 2:58 . Since then I have regressed a bit due to post marathon lack of motivation but I have got my mojo back now Its a long road but worth it.

Of course this is only one side of training but a very important part and more important than the fast stuff if you are targeting marathons as an A race.

Best of luck with your journey. You should start a log as you are going to have lots of fun watching all your hard work pay off.

Thanks for the link very interesting, one thing that has me a little confused is the LT training, I had a lab test carried out by turn point is approx. 170, but I build to LT from 158, the tester told me to do all easy runs under 158bpm, I usually do them around 145bpm which is still too fast, I assume I should run LT between say 160 - 170 - is this correct.

groovyg

audreyp wrote: »

Great thanks! Thank you for all the responses. I can't find anything online about racing and heart rates though. So if I'm running a half 10 mile or half marathon should I keep under my threshold or should I just always go faster in races?

I was told with a 5k to just leg it! But how about a 10K?

If you are doing a race and want a pb, surely heart rate zones would be the last thing you should be thinking about. Why not race on feel and pace yourself off those around you No ?

rom

SWL wrote: »

Thanks for the link very interesting, one thing that has me a little confused is the LT training, I had a lab test carried out by turn point is approx. 170, but I build to LT from 158, the tester told me to do all easy runs under 158bpm, I usually do them around 145bpm which is still too fast, I assume I should run LT between say 160 - 170 - is this correct.

LT is Lactic Threshold. This is the turning point where the level of lactic in your legs becomes more than what you are able to deal with. Once you go over this then your legs fill with lactic and this will result in you slowing down.

Think of LT being the idea pace that you could do a marathon in but in practice it never really turns out that way due to other factors. Normally people operate their marathon pace at slightly lower than their LT. To improve your LT then training very near it makes the graph curve shift to the right. Their is two schools of thought that weather it is better to training slightly above or below LT pace.

There is always lactic acid in the blood stream but up until this point your body can deal with it and it does not hinder your performance. For endurance events this is a much important value to know than VO2max. For example Sonia's V02max would make her some sort of mutant but her marathon PB is much slower than Catherina McKiernan's whos V02max would be much lower.

The lab test should be able to tell you what pace your LT is at. Mine was 7:15 when I did one in 2012 and it would suggest a 3:15 marathon. I ran 3:18 at the time having run 4:27 12 months earlier.

Its on my to do list to do another one of these again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold

If you are interested in this topic then buy "The lore of running" aka the running bible and read it cover to cover. Prof Noakes explains these things very well and hopefully you will experience the eureka moment where it all makes sense like I did.

Clearlier

SWL wrote: »

Thanks for the link very interesting, one thing that has me a little confused is the LT training, I had a lab test carried out by turn point is approx. 170, but I build to LT from 158, the tester told me to do all easy runs under 158bpm, I usually do them around 145bpm which is still too fast, I assume I should run LT between say 160 - 170 - is this correct.

Why do you think that it's too fast? If it genuinely is then build your easy runs up over time and you should be able to hit those effort levels as you get fitter.

N.B. I distinguish between easy runs and recovery runs. Recovery runs are jogs and while not entirely irrelevant to aerobic development have as their purpose the goal of reducing your recovery time from a previous hard run/session. There are lots of theories around as to why gentle exercise is better than total rest (and there are circumstances where total rest is a better option) but only experience will tell you what works for you. Easy runs on the other hand are not jogs in the park and there should be a certain amount of effort put into them. You should however be able to recover from them quite quickly.

Edit to add that you may well be right about it being too fast. If 158 represents 2mmols on the lactate profile then that's going to be a bit faster than marathon pace which is going to be too hard for your easy runs. (I'm thinking these things through as I write about them).

Clearlier

rom wrote: »

LT is Lactic Threshold. This is the turning point where the level of lactic in your legs becomes more than what you are able to deal with. Once you go over this then your legs fill with lactic and this will result in you slowing down.

Think of LT being the idea pace that you could do a marathon in but in practice it never really turns out that way due to other factors. Normally people operate their marathon pace at slightly lower than their LT. To improve your LT then training very near it makes the graph curve shift to the right. Their is two schools of thought that weather it is better to training slightly above or below LT pace.

There is always lactic acid in the blood stream but up until this point your body can deal with it and it does not hinder your performance. For endurance events this is a much important value to know than VO2max. For example Sonia's V02max would make her some sort of mutant but her marathon PB is much slower than Catherina McKiernan's whos V02max would be much lower.

The lab test should be able to tell you what pace your LT is at. Mine was 7:15 when I did one in 2012 and it would suggest a 3:15 marathon. I ran 3:18 at the time having run 4:27 12 months earlier.

Its on my to do list to do another one of these again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold

If you are interested in this topic then buy "The lore of running" aka the running bible and read it cover to cover. Prof Noakes explains these things very well and hopefully you will experience the eureka moment where it all makes sense like I did.

It's important to be careful with terminology because different terms have different meanings to most people. Also my education in physiology is very limited and mostly as a result of what I've read on the internet.

All that said rom I'm pretty sure that you're mixing up with lactate threshold (approx. 4mmols) and aerobic threshold (approx. 2mmols). Lactate threshold I understand to be roughly what you can hold for an hour and aerobic threshold what you can hold for 2 hours (Stazza had a few interesting comments in his log on why running at aerobic threshold in a marathon will cause a slowdown towards the end).

You're absolutely right about the importance of lactate threshold (and aerobic threshold) in training for a marathon but I'd be wary of asserting that Sonia had a high VO2 max and McKiernan a much lower one unless you have direct knowledge of this. For the reason I mentioned in my earlier post this is not necessarily the case.

rom

Clearlier wrote: »

It's important to be careful with terminology because different terms have different meanings to most people. Also my education in physiology is very limited and mostly as a result of what I've read on the internet.

All that said rom I'm pretty sure that you're mixing up with lactate threshold (approx. 4mmols) and aerobic threshold (approx. 2mmols). Lactate threshold I understand to be roughly what you can hold for an hour and aerobic threshold what you can hold for 2 hours (Stazza had a few interesting comments in his log on why running at aerobic threshold in a marathon will cause a slowdown towards the end).

You're absolutely right about the importance of lactate threshold (and aerobic threshold) in training for a marathon but I'd be wary of asserting that Sonia had a high VO2 max and McKiernan a much lower one unless you have direct knowledge of this. For the reason I mentioned in my earlier post this is not necessarily the case.

Sorry yes you are right. I mixed them up. Regarding Sonia's high V02max it is noted in Lore of Running. The exact number escapes me but basically it was the highest or close to the highest ever record by a female athlete. Saying that Mckiernan is lower is an educated guess that I would be willing to bet a lot on.

Best to read the Book

Finnt

Just looking for recommendations on books on this?

rom

Finnt wrote: »

Just looking for recommendations on books on this?

Lore of running for a start to give you a good foundation.

Finnt

Thanks rom, will pick up a copy.

ecoli

Finnt wrote: »

Just looking for recommendations on books on this?

Take your pick,

Health Intelligent training by Ken Livingstone
Scientific training for the marathon (IAAF publication) by Renato Canova
Science of Running by Steve Magness

These as well as Lore of running are good starts