Replacing old boiler, advice needed

cltt97

I had someone calling out to check the central heating system. At the moment we’ve got a baxi boiler in the chimney with a gasfire unit sitting in the front. Both are from around 1988, so we were advised to replace in the near future. We also don’t like the fireplace and it sits quite high above the ground. So we would like to rip out the old fireplace and get a new system installed. To replace the whole thing with a new baxi system would cost about 3200 Euros (for new boiler and new front gas unit), but these can only be used with fireplaces with a flat front as these are kind of rectangle insets (see here, at the moment we’ve got GF3).
I have a couple of questions to ask now. We would really like a more traditional iron cast fireplace, but most of them come with oval insets. Can you have a boiler behind them with a front unit? Is there a company that does them?
And secondly, is baxi the best option or are there other manufacturers?
And thirdly, having read so much about condensing and self-regulating boilers, etc, are these suitable to put into the chimney?
The reason why we thought we leave it there is that we don’t need an open fire really and there is no really good spot in the house for putting a big boiler, so leaving it in the fireplace is not a bad option.

Any advice greatly appreciated

311

You can get a new version of whats already in.
They come installed flush with the wall and mounted on the floor/hearth.

The 3,200 price is about average for changing one of those type of boilers.
High effeciency boilers tend to be wall mounted and condensing boilers have a pipe that needs to feed into a drain.

Because a chimney needs a draft to work ,theres not much you can do to make such a boiler highly effecient.The newer versions of these boilers are naturally more effecient than the older ones ,they also have a lot more techology to them aswell.

I think the baxi website is down at the moment ,I don't know why ,maybe they are upgrading their range at the moment .
They usually have downloadable pdf brochures on such models. Bermuda.

Brian.

cltt97

Hi Brian,

Thanks for that. Is there any other systems than baxi though? I would like to get an old ironcast fireplace, but the baxi fronts are all rectangular, so wouldn't fint into an oval inset. I've got that brochure with the Bermuda range. I suppose getting a new (self-regulation and condensing) boiler would mean having to take all the pipework that goes into the chimney out and hang it up someplace else... I think the gas guy said that just moving the whole lot would cost about 2K and then on top of that the cost of the boiler. how much do you reckon one of these fancy efficient boilers are?

311

The condensing boilers are a LOT more expensive .
Depending on what way your house is theres not much bother in taking out a bermuda. Most of the time the pipes pass by the boiler at the side of the fire and do the radiators downstairs.
I've had to cut shelves out of presses to fit boilers into existing kitchens ,ran flue pipes on top of kitchen units .

Your current system is an open system ,new systems are sealed ,I don't like sealing the new baxi bermuda because they don't have pump overrun installed.
Pump overrun keeps the pump running for a few minutes after the boiler goes out ,so the boiler will not go into overheat.

Brian.

cltt97

I remember the gas guy mentioning that the system was an open one and he was change it to a closed one, he also said he would replace the pump unit - would that be the pump you're referring to? And yes the pipes are all coming out of the side of the fireplace and this is also where this "pump" is located, it's a blue thing inbetween the pipes somewhere.
I'm just wondering, if I'm going through installing a new boiler and investing a good few bob, should I consider moving it out and getting a really good system? The house is a typical old two bed council house with kitchen extension, like all the other millions of that type that are around!

311

If its a 2 bed council ,then the walls are probably the poured concrete ones .
If your kitchen is adjacent to a room upstairs that can be lifted then you should be able to drill up at an angle into the floor upstairs.
If it's a ex finglas council house the hot water cylinder is downstairs and if it's a cabra/drimnagh type one then it should be upstairs.
I'm getting a little into it ,so excuse .I think personally get a quote for the boiler in the kitchen and then work out how much extra a condensing one is.
Both boilers require an identical amount of pipework .

I really think a sealed system is the best way to go with a wall mounted boiler.
I don't like installing bermuda's ,but some people just don't have a choice or the money .

Brian.

cltt97

It's in Drimnagh and the hot water cylinder is upstairs. There are radiators upstairs, I assume the pipes come up the fireshaft. Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the difference between open and closed/sealed system?

311

Basically water expands when it heats as you know ,this expansion is allowed by a pipe that extends to your attic and hangs over your little tank.
The above is known as open, because your heating system is open to the elements.

A sealed system does away with this pipe and instead you have a baloon like device that expands and contracts. Because you are retaining the pressure within the system and your system is not open to the elements ,the system is more effecient.

On a lot of open heating systems the pump can be only set at 2 ,instead of 3 because of a thing called pitching .
A sealed system can have the pump at three so your getting maximum flow.

Brian.

cltt97

Hi Brian,

Why don't you like Bermuda's if I may ask? I think the gas guy also said he would seal it, is that possible?

311

They're a great boiler and nice fronts ,it's just a little technical thing I don't like about them thats all.
They can be sealed i think but I've never sealed one to be honest ,the exchanger can get very hot and there is no pump overrun on the boiler

Brian

tcs

Sounds like I'm in similar situation as cltt97.

Living in a 2-up, 2-down ex-council house in Drimnagh too. No extension at back tho. Have old skanky brown Myson firefront (that's disconnected probably cos of some dodginess) in front of back boiler (that luckily does work!). It's 17 or 18 years old & I'm planning an overhaul of the kitchen so am looking to replace it.

I'm undecided as to whether I should get a replacement back boiler or just get a wall-mounted boiler.

While a replacement back boiler would be least disruptive in terms of pipework etc., the reason I'm less than enthusiastic on it is that the room is a kitchen/dining room rather than a sitting room and the fireplace has the potential to look a little silly. I got a couple of quotes last year (around the 4k mark so where'd you get quote for 3200 cltt97???)

If I was to go the replacement backboiler route, I'd want as unobtrusive a fireplace as possible and the 'fireplace guys' that work with the 'gasmen' I got quotes from just do bog-standard fire-surrounds which aren't minimal enough to look unobtrusive in the dining area of a kitchen.

The pic of Baxi firefront I've attached is from Baxi catalogue & I found that the local guys I was dealing with didn't do surrounds like that. The fireplace in the pic is raised a bit off the floor (kinda hole in the wall-ish) & to have something like it I'd probably need to have the lintel raised => I need a builder etc. More hassle, more people to co-ordinate etc. The fact that the hearth has to come out 12" means it may look a bit awkward floating out into the room too.

I don't know where to go/who to ask to help work this out. The 'gasmen' just wanna quote for what they do and the fireplace men just do what they do - haven't gleaned much inspiration of them. I'd like to see examples of a few ideas so I can move forward on this.

If I scrap the back boiler idea, the problem with a wall-mounted boiler is where to put it. I'm shying away from the back wall of the dining area as I expect that a conservatory/sunroom/extension of some sort may be built in the future necessitating a move of the boiler if it's got to be on an external wall (could it be left on that wall and have it vent up to over the roof of a single story conservatory/sunroom/extension). Gasmen last year quoted about 2k for moving a boiler if I did do an extension.

I didn't really want to put it in a bedroom initially cos of noise but then when the back boiler kicks off you can hear it in the back bedroom anyway. I definitely think the back bedroom is too small to take a boiler. The front bedroom might be an option - the place where it would be positioned would be where I plan to build in a wardrobe & it would of course take away space that could be used for storing stuff but it may be the lesser of all evils. Have boilers gotten any neater/more slimline?

With the wall-mounted boiler option, I'm also a bit concerned about how disruptive it'd be with respect to pipework etc. - e.g. floor boards having to come up. Could it be worked around with only a few boards coming up at intervals across the room? The hot press is in the back bedroom - above the fireplace where the backboiler is & pipework would have to go to/from there.

Thanks

T

311

I've installed basic surrounds ,they can be got and installed no problem.
Theres a little measuring to be done with the boiler alright ,but that always has to be done anyways. I've put three surrounds in for customers with the new baxi bermuda and they look grand.

When I say basic I mean a standard timber surround ,with marble around inset and marble hearth.

I think we done it that way those times because the price was a little high ,normally we use a place in manor street to install the fireplaces ,each to their own and all that.

I don't know off hand what the price is for a surround ,I'll find out .

tcs

Thanks for your response _Brian_

Just to clarify, when you say "basic" you describe it as "a standard timber surround, with marble around inset and marble hearth". By that description I'm envisaging something like the pic I'm attaching now. Or do you mean something else?

What I don't like about those sorts of fireplaces is the "standard timber surround". The one in that pic that I attached earlier from the Baxi catalogue is, in my opinion, way nicer than the type of fireplace I'm attaching a pic of in this post - less obvious in a space that isn't a sitting/living room. I mean the fire-front might never be lit unless I was having guests over for a romantic dinner & wanted to roast them out of it at the kitchen table! I want to steer well clear of the types of "standard timber surround" fireplaces that you see in sitting rooms in a lot of houses as I just don't like the look of them & they're totally unsuitable in a kitchen. What I'm after is as minimal/unfussy as you can get. My problem is that I'm not seeing anything like that - I just see standard fireplaces.

I must sound really fussy but I guess that's cos I am

311

First off ,if you go for smaller than whats already there you are left with plastering to be done ,which will have to be done before the fireplace ,which is gonna cost a lot more time wise.

Second ,going for something with a little more vinesse gets you into the fireplace sales area and you'll have to get them to do it.

Some people just plaster the wall and stick a bit of slate under the fire as a hearth.

cltt97

Hi tcs,

Yep sounds exactly my situation... You should try hispeed gas www.hsg.ie. They're the ones that quoted me that price - think it says that on their webpage, too. They've also got very simple firefronts, and my mother in law, actually has no firefront whatsoever. They've just stuck a plasterboard on and just put the simple all black firefront into it, looks VERY minimalistic. Hi-speed gas do all the gaswork and they also sell fire-surrounds. They told me that the fireplace guy and the gasguy would come out at the same time and do the whole lot together. Like you I thought about moving the yoke, but just moving it would cost 2K and then all the piping would have to be changed and on top of that a new boiler... Way too expensive and complicated and disruptive. And I figured that there isn't that much storage space in the upstairs bedrooms to put a boiler and I didn't want to hang it in the kitchen extension either, as it is quite small. Maybe in a few years when I've recovered from paying the exorbitant stamp duty! I suppose you could always just have a backboiler without a front?

311

Shop around ,do not just go with one crowd ,try getting at least three prices.
It's very easy to get a cheap price ,but do a bit of work on it though ,trust me it will pay off dividends.
Ask around and see who got someone else to do their job etc.

cltt97

Well, if anyone has any recommendations, I'm open to any suggestions!

311

ask your neighbours ,I can't recommend anyone because that would be bias.
But I know for a fact that you can get good prices and a good job at the same time ,also the opposite.
Trust me ,a little effort now and you'll be right as rain.

tcs

Hi cltt97

When you said 3,200 Euros did that include the fitting? I seem to recall a slightly higher quote (maybe nearer 3,800 from HSG last year). I had quick look last night for the quote but no go. Will look properly at weekend. Mowld's Heating on Crumlin Road were a similar price.

So have you defo shied away from the condensing boiler idea? The one thing that gives me pause for thought on this (makes me wonder if the loss of storage space in a bedroom & the disruption would be worth it) is the 90%sedbuk efficiency of a condensing boiler versus the 77% of the Baxi Bermuda ... Trying to be a responsible citizen, ya know? Every little bit helps.

Re.

Ask around and see who got someone else to do their job etc

that's all well and good when you're a Dub but if you're a culchie who doesn't know that many in the Big Smoke, it's not so easy - hence my post on boards!

My neighbours got HSG to do theirs, they chose not to put a firefront on it -the finishing is pretty rough at the edges (not HSG's doing in case anyone takes that as me dissing HSG - they seem a decent bunch) & I had them service my old boiler last year. Will try them for another quote this year.

I got a guy from down the way to do some plastering for me last year so if I go with the back boiler, I hope I can co-ordinate to get him with the gasmen for any plastering. There'll defo be plastering work to do.

T

311

How are the company you mention the best to go for ,because they advertise everywhere ,I don't understand ,ring bord gais for a few numbers even.

Seriously though ,look around ,do yourself a favour.

311

Another thing aswell ,don't let some salesman tell you what can and can't be done ,nothing is impossible and the ones who always say can't just don't want to bother thats all.
I've installed full heating systems in 4 storey gorgian houses with copper pipe and no pipe showing anywhere ,someone else would say impossible.

tcs

Nah, never said they're the best to go for by a long shot. I will be taking your advice and shopping around.

Thing I find funny is that Borg Gais have a few installer's who are 'very obviously' listed - e.g. in leaflets they send in the post and on http://www.bordgaisenergysupply.ie/gas_at_home/htm/3_gas_at_home/installers_index.htm. I think a lot of people thing that these are the only installers they can get but I've tracked down a more comprehensive list at http://www.bordgais.ie/networks/index.jsp?1nID=102&pID=117&nID=144. Anyone know why the smaller list gets special treatment???

311

When you want a job done ,you will be given a number of a company who will most likely be able to handle the workload .
The more comprehensive list is for installers that are on the gas board ,we are one of those installers.
The gas company doesn't want you ringing a number that you will not get a quote straight away from.

cltt97

Brian, why don't you pm us and tell us how much you would be charging, or give us any recommendations. If I ask as such there shouldn't be a problem?

cltt97

tcs, yes I've thought about the condensing boiler situation as well, but I'm just not fond of having half the house ripped up to get the pipping upstairs and also, I just don't have the money to have the boiler moved and buy a new boiler (and those condensing ones are very expensive) and with all the storage issues I've just decided to go with the baxi. Our walls are also very well insulated, so I'm not too worried about needing too much gas.
The guy who serviced our boiler said they would charge just over 3K and that's what my mother in law paid as well. Guy also said he would do a nixer for less, but I'm not sure about that as I guess you won't get a guarantee then either, which I think I'd want with a gas installation of any kind...

311

The main reason and this is being honest ,I know there is installers out there that are better than me and I don't know who they are.
I can't give advice here and expect to get work ,I'd end up spoofing to get work

If I suggest something it's only out of genuine interest for the person posting ,there isn't anything else behind it.

I thinks it's better if I remain impartial and help people ,thats of course if i am helping them. ??? ,hope i haven't been coming accross as an ego freak.

cltt97

No, your advice has been most helpful, keep it coming! You never know, we might get on to you for a quote (through normal routes) anyhow! Tcs, please keep me posted on all quotes you're getting and I'll do likewise...

311

Thanks ,appreciate that reply cltt97 ,

Brian.

cltt97

Hello, me again with more questions...

Someone recommended to me that I should get a combi-boiler altogether and don't go with the baxi system at all, because it's only got a D grade in efficiency. I'm just wondering, how much would I have to pay for having all the piping changed from the chimney (sure that's how it gets upstairs) and connected to the new wall hung boiler and for the gas reconnection etc. A guy said I could get a good combi boiler in B&Q for 600 Euros. Any opinions on that?