Playing big draws against calling stations

Gholimoli

Ok the situation is this:
3/6 blinds
stacks are : Hero 700,villain 800

you have position and calling station raises say to about 21.you reraise in position with 9Ts for example and make it 60.you get called .

flop gives you a monster draw:
say for example an OESFD,or TP with OESD or ,TP with FD or the likes.
Now villain raises, you put villain on an over pair.
Now if you thought you had absolutely 0 FE against this player, what is the best way to proceed.
Check/call or do you want build the pot by reraising.
I mean every one is talking about playing big draws aggressively on cash games but you have to believe that some of you profit by playing them aggressively has to come from your FE,so what happens if that FE what taken away?

Ste05

Calling stations don't tend to be so aggressive....

EDIT: The rest of the hand is decided by the odds...

5starpool

From my non cash expert point of view I would be calling the flop bet, as the point with raising with a big draw is to have a chance to win the pot there and then or if not at least build a bigger pot if you do hit. If this person is such a calling station anyhow they will likely pay you off to an extent when a flush/straight draw hits. So in summary I think that with practically 0 FE you have to be more cautious in trying to build pots with draws.

fuzzbox

He doesnt look like a calling station from your description of the hand thus far.

Call Vs calling stations, and then they pay off when you hit. Dont semi-bluff the stations.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

Ok the situation is this:
3/6 blinds
stacks are : Hero 700,villain 800

you have position and calling station limps you raise in position with 9Ts for example and make it 24. you get called .

flop gives you a monster draw:
say for example an OESFD,or TP with OESD or ,TP with FD or the likes.
Now villain checks....

This is what a calling station would look like...

In a situation like this I'd bet out about 1/2 pot to try and build the pot knowing that when I'm called I've just got 3:1 for my money... , or won the pot here and now with T high, I'd then proceed to the turn and see what falls...

fuzzbox

Also, dont reraise calling stations with T9s.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

This is what a calling station would look like...

In a situation like this I'd bet out about 1/2 pot to try and build the pot knowing that when I'm called I've just got 3:1 for my money... , or won the pot here and now with T high, I'd then proceed to the turn and see what falls...

there is 0 chance of you winnin the pot right there thats the whole thing.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

there is 0 chance of you winnin the pot right there thats the whole thing.

If the hand played out as Ste described, then there is a % chance far greater than 0% of winning the pot.

The hand, as you described it, prolly has a 0% chance of victory with a raise ... so call.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

there is 0 chance of you winnin the pot right there thats the whole thing.

Alright, well in that case I'm still happy that I've got 3:1 pot odds on a 2:1 shot, (and that's not including the massive implied odds I'm getting too) it builds the pot and makes stacking him alot easier, however if he's a such a calling station that will call massive overbets then there's no need to build the pot, but generally you need to build pots up to stack these guys, the whole time keeping in mind the odds on you hitting your hand, and the implied odds offered, i.e. the amount he has left,

You could also bet the pot here getting 2:1 on your money, when you factor in the implied odds on hitting it's still a great bet, it also makes the pot bigger and so easier to get all his money in the middle, if the turn misses you can possibly peel off a free card if you want as there might be already enough in the pot to get it all in on a River that makes your hand....

IMO FE is nowhere near as vital in cash games as it is in tournaments

lazlo

Gholimoli wrote:

Ok the situation is this:
3/6 blinds
stacks are : Hero 700,villain 800

you have position and calling station raises say to about 21.you reraise in position with 9Ts for example and make it 60.you get called .

flop gives you a monster draw:
say for example an OESFD,or TP with OESD or ,TP with FD or the likes.
Now villain raises, you put villain on an over pair.
Now if you thought you had absolutely 0 FE against this player, what is the best way to proceed.
Check/call or do you want build the pot by reraising.
I mean every one is talking about playing big draws aggressively on cash games but you have to believe that some of you profit by playing them aggressively has to come from your FE,so what happens if that FE what taken away?

I don't understand the aggressive re-raise, this play is somthing I would only make against a relatively loose player who knows his stuff.
Such a player will more than like relinquish the pot preflop while a calling station is bound to call your bet with a hand that is probably a favourite over yours, so even if you flop nothing you have little chance of outplaying the station on the flop. Even against stronger players you'll find difficulty in taking the pot down as its sufficiently big enough for them to do their utmost to ensure you don't take it from them.

If the pot was multiway(in the best case scenario, but even heads-up its a better play) and you had position a single bet re-raise to 42 is very advisable. This creates much better implied odds for a kickass drawing hand, while you also have the advantage of being the aggressor and holding position on your foes. Furthermore a re-raise to your bet of 42 will certainly let you know where you stand as only the big dogs will come blazing over the top in this spot. That way you can fold your hand in the knowledge that even if you flopped your top pair you would be guaranteed to have saved yourself betting into a very large pot whilst holding only the most marginal chance of winning the pot. In cash games suited connectors are excellent hands but they really lose value in more shorthanded situations-so your reraise to 60 is an excessive overexposure of a premium draw.

Hectorjelly

lazlo wrote:

If the pot was multiway(in the best case scenario, but even heads-up its a better play) and you had position a single bet re-raise to 42 is very advisable. This creates much better implied odds for a kickass drawing hand, while you also have the advantage of being the aggressor and holding position on your foes. Furthermore a re-raise to your bet of 42 will certainly let you know where you stand as only the big dogs will come blazing over the top in this spot. That way you can fold your hand in the knowledge that even if you flopped your top pair you would be guaranteed to have saved yourself betting into a very large pot whilst holding only the most marginal chance of winning the pot. In cash games suited connectors are excellent hands but they really lose value in more shorthanded situations-so your reraise to 60 is an excessive overexposure of a premium draw.

This is terrible, min reraising is by far the worst of all the options. And giving AA and KK a chance to reraise you preflop is a very bad thing, not the other way around.

wayfarer

If you have 0 FE and don't care about disguising your hand by raising etc.

You should raise and get as much money as possible in on the flop if you are actually favourite to win the hand eg. holding an OESFD vs. an overpair.

If you are an underdog eg. holding a FD with a middle-pinner, then just call, provided you are getting the pot odds.

lazlo

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is terrible, min reraising is by far the worst of all the options. And giving AA and KK a chance to reraise you preflop is a very bad thing, not the other way around.

not if you do the same thing with big hands such as AA nad KK--the lack of respect players give a min raise is one reason I continue to elect to make this play with the biggest suited connectors and with any pair too. There is no point in raising by a bigger amount -you are relying on the flop to hit you if you get stuck for any more chips--mid suited connectors are all about maxmimum expectation for miinimum investment-with a smaller raise he will get a 3, maybe a 4 way pot placing 120-160$ in the middle--I he makes a flop he has done so for less money and the pot odds for his oppenents are sufficient that they will proceed with middle strentgh against 2 opponents---such as our hero with his big draw & the guy who is potentially holding a big hand. And if your opponenet had AA or KK--why on earth is a raise of 60 any better? He will automatically assume that you have QQ or AK and blow you off the pot altogether---or he may just make (an unlikely) call and you are running to a board whre you have the worst of it--you have paid too much to catch a draw and if you do catch a pair you will inevitably have to bet at it, somewhere in the region of 100$, only to find that you are dead in the water when you get set all-in. Sorry a small raise or a call are the only opitons here-particularly the raise if you have made sucha play with AA, AKs or Kk already

fuzzbox

The reason ppl call min-reraises so often is not a lack of respect, but generous pot odds.

lazlo

fuzzbox wrote:

The reason ppl call min-reraises so often is not a lack of respect, but generous pot odds.

exactly-and your drawing hands are the hands that need better pot odds

Ste05

lazlo, I'm completely confused by your argument TBH, from reading your earlier post, is your whole point not based on the below??

lazlo wrote:

not if you do the same thing with big hands such as AA and KK--

Are you saying that you advocate min re-raising pre-flop with AA, KK and "big SC's" in the hope that you...

lazlo wrote:

with a smaller raise he will get a 3, maybe a 4 way pot placing 120-160$ in the middle

This thinking is so flawed, in so many ways, I don't even know where to begin.... (but the main thing is that a min RE-raise will get 3-4 callers about 1% of the time)

This part is completely baffling:

lazlo wrote:

mid suited connectors are all about maxmimum expectation for miinimum investment

How do you work out that 42 is a lesser investment than 21?? For your play to be even remotely profitable (assuming that none of these 3-4 players will re-raise) you'd need to be sitting at a table with about 500BB's per player....

Maybe I'm missing your point completely, could you possibly outline your argument and divide it into Pre-Flop and Post-Flop...

In the hand outlined above by Gholi, as fuzzbox says, a call is (by a LONG way) the correct move, once you are being offered the correct odds (including implied odds), Odds are the only thing that decides this hand as there are no other moves available to you.

lazlo

Ste05 wrote:

lazlo, I'm completely confused by your argument TBH, from reading your earlier post, is your whole point not based on the below??

Are you saying that you advocate min re-raising pre-flop with AA, KK and "big SC's" in the hope that you...

This thinking is so flawed, in so many ways, I don't even know where to begin.... (but the main thing is that a min RE-raise will get 3-4 callers about 1% of the time)

This part is completely baffling:

How do you work out that 42 is a lesser investment than 21?? For your play to be even remotely profitable (assuming that none of these 3-4 players will re-raise) you'd need to be sitting at a table with about 500BB's per player....

Maybe I'm missing your point completely, could you possibly outline your argument and divide it into Pre-Flop and Post-Flop...

In the hand outlined above by Gholi, as fuzzbox says, a call is (by a LONG way) the correct move, once you are being offered the correct odds (including implied odds), Odds are the only thing that decides this hand as there are no other moves available to you.

A in raise into a pot that already has 3/4 players in it will almost ensure that that those players hang around beyond the flop. I would only raise with a hand lik T9s if the pot was multiway, otherwise its a surefire call. The reason for the raise is to create a bigger pot on the flop. And again the investment is not so steep as Gholi's 60, by investing significantly less and being furnished with more calls and draw becomes much more playable as its possible that there will be threeway action to the turn and very occasionally to the river.
I generally don't advise reraising because as I've said the big pairs will balast over the top--however in a multiway pot it is very useful for creating excellent odds for you premium drawing hands.

Ste05

Just to be clear, are you advocating min-re-raising on the flop? Or Pre-Flop (as you said you would also do with AA & KK?)

Hectorjelly

lazlo

There is no need to raise to increase your pot odds. Raising with suited connectors decrease your pot odds as you are deliberately putting more money in preflop than you need to. The reason to reraise preflop is to pretend that it is you that has AA/kk, the intention being that you make a big bet on the flop and everyone folds. (when you raise you reraise the pot so that it will nomally be heads up. Ifyou get more than 2 callers you should usually give up) Usually if they call its because they can beat AA or KK, so you can safely check fold unless you happen to flop something good. Its better to reraise with a hand like 89s than Kto because its hard to make a good second best hand with 89s, so you dont have to worry about reverse implied odds.

As you increase in stakes reraising with hands like this becomes profitable, and an essential part of any really good players game, as its important to have a somewhat wide 3 betting range, and there are a lot of spots where you will pick up quite a bit of dead money.

lazlo

absolutely not after the flop-not in a million years!only preflop in position...and you must do it once or twice with a biig hand to get away with it if you intend to do it most often with JTs, T9s and 89s as well as middle pairs. The bloated pots create massive draws for your own drawing hands and if you are creating set value you have created a pot wherin draws and top-pair will be compelled to lead into if you do flop your set. Min raising has to be done only within the right game context and with the right hands--I'm not saying that a min raise preflop with KK is necessarily the optimal play for Kings, however you are affording yourself the chance of big profit with your set and drawing hands later on. In addition with the Kings you'll win a lot of the time but you won't be so pot committed that you cant throw them away when the texture of the board gets ugly. To sum up--min raising is a useful play but it requires the player to be mindful when employing it---and never on the flop unless as a semi-bluff raise perhaps

Hectorjelly

4 players are in the pot for $20 each and you make it $40 on the button with KK. Brilliant, I can see you have a talent for no limit poker

lazlo

3 players besides myself hectorjelly, and its no big deal as I've said--its for an overall gameplan-->you really do insist on tearing the ass out of anythingt that contradicts your view of the game and indeed you go out of your way to undermine these things--in spite of the fact that my techniques have for the past year and a half served me well.

And I'll reiterate the fact that I did say in my last post that the min raise even against three players isnt an optimal play by any means for KK however it serves agreater purpose on terms of giving a player freedom to toy around bloating pots with hands like 9Ts and 77.

For instance if my min raise with KK sees a flop, it is favourite to win a tidy sum there and then-its ture that you may well end up having to discard the hand, but the ideal situation with a KK min raise in late position is that there will now bee over 100$ in the pot and often aclever clogs in an early or mid position will feel comfortable makinga substantial reraise with mediocre strengh such as 66 or AJ. The players attempt to scoop will be met by a strong response by your big hand. The next time you min raise from the same position most players will have remembered your action. So you're more likely to be endowed with a slew of calls with your drawing hands.

Gholimoli

lazlo wrote:

3 players besides myself hectorjelly, and its no big deal as I've said--its for an overall gameplan-->you really do insist on tearing the ass out of anythingt that contradicts your view of the game and indeed you go out of your way to undermine these things--in spite of the fact that my techniques have for the past year and a half served me well.

And I'll reiterate the fact that I did say in my last post that the min raise even against three players isnt an optimal play by any means for KK however it serves agreater purpose on terms of giving a player freedom to toy around bloating pots with hands like 9Ts and 77.

For instance if my min raise with KK sees a flop, it is favourite to win a tidy sum there and then-its ture that you may well end up having to discard the hand, but the ideal situation with a KK min raise in late position is that there will now bee over 100$ in the pot and often aclever clogs in an early or mid position will feel comfortable makinga substantial reraise with mediocre strengh such as 66 or AJ. The players attempt to scoop will be met by a strong response by your big hand. The next time you min raise from the same position most players will have remembered your action. So you're more likely to be endowed with a slew of calls with your drawing hands.

Lazo man your logic is so so flawed .
your saying it has worked for you over the past year.i would have to wonder where and against whom you play like this and actually make it work.
what type of player will limp with 66 ,then reraise a late position min riase ?
what your saying about the min raise is really wrong.
im not being smart,but can i ask you where you play with this system and actually make money?
your understanding of odds,implied odds,odds offered to you or by you really needs work.

Bp!

lazlo wrote:

you really do insist on tearing the ass out of anythingt that contradicts your view of the game and indeed you go out of your way to undermine these things--in spite of the fact that my techniques have for the past year and a half served me well.

He is only stating how to play hands a certain way to maximise profits in the long run, and min raising certainly isnt the way to go about this for so many reasons. There are alot of hands that will call a decent preflop raise and fold when they miss flop etc who now with the min raise can get away cheaper leaving the pot smaller for you etc

the list is very long for why min raising is a bad way to come into a pot

Lazare

Lazlo, if you're idea of min raising in position with AA, KK, is to create an image that will make your 8 9's and your 7 8's more profitable later on, what makes you feel you will always get a multiway pot when you attempt it? The likeliest action you'll get is a reraise by AA or KK. This tactic would work if your intention was to steal small pots with rags.
Add this to your wasted opportunities early on, and your overall and long term profit will be minimal.

Hectorjelly

lazlo wrote:

3 players besides myself hectorjelly, and its no big deal as I've said--its for an overall gameplan-->you really do insist on tearing the ass out of anythingt that contradicts your view of the game and indeed you go out of your way to undermine these things--in spite of the fact that my techniques have for the past year and a half served me well.

Your posts and thoughts are quite mad, in this thread you are saying you should min raise with kk in a multiway pot so that later in the game when you get 99 you can minraise an already multiway raised pot to make the situation more profitable for you. Im not quite sure what a adequate response to this, but I feel that more experienced posters have a duty to point out when someone is giving such clearly erronerous advice.