Eight years old and gay?

Terry

My cousin thinks her son may be gay.
he is eight, has no male friends, plays with dolls and all types of toys usually associated with girls of his age. he told three of his female cousins that he wants to be a girl and when it was coming up to christmas last year he sat his mother down and said "mam, can i tell you my deepest darkest secret?. I want a doll house from santa".

when i was in playschool (the word "creche" hadn't been invented 26 years ago) one of the boys played with dolls. he turned out to be gay. coincidentally, he is now a good friend of my cousin.

I would like to get some feedback from the homosexual members here on this.
did you know you were gay when you were eight?
how did you deal with it?
how did people in your family react around you?
how distressing was the taunting in school?

my cousin is very open minded and isn't at all bothered if her son is gay or straight. her main concern is for his wellbeing.
he is a very quiet child and is very easily hurt emotionally.

any help on this would be very much appreciated.

*obligatory gay joke*
the guy from playschool is a hairdresser. :rolleyes: typical.
sorry about that.

Stark

julep wrote:

*obligatory gay joke*
the guy from playschool is a hairdresser. :rolleyes: typical.
sorry about that.

I'm still waiting for the joke...

julep wrote:

did you know you were gay when you were eight?

I didn't even know what gay was when I was eight. I did know when I was about eleven. I think I had a crush on Wesley Crusher from Star Trek before then though (the shame ).

julep wrote:

how did you deal with it?

Lots and lots of straight porn

julep wrote:

how did people in your family react around you?
how distressing was the taunting in school?

Wasn't an issue as noone knew about it. Some friends knew in 5th and 6th year but that was it.

snappieT

did you know you were gay when you were eight?
how did you deal with it?
how did people in your family react around you?
how distressing was the taunting in school?

Same, I didn't know what gay was when I was 8, but looking back, I definately was then. I actually had one of those kiddy "girlfriends" back then.
When I was about 13, the mammy asked if I wanted a girlfriend (talk about probing!), I replied yes, as far as I was concerned, I did then.

I was taunted in school from 2nd class (being 8 at the time). I brushed it off. Quoted defination of "homosexuality" from dictionary to jeerers (i believe it was "person that engages in sexual activity with person of the same gender", so I decided that based on that definition, I couldn't be labeled as gay.

That said, my 6th class teacher had concerns over the jeering, and discussed these with my mother. I honestly wasn't bothered by it.

Terry

thanks for the replies.

i'll just change that "did you know you were gay?" to did you think or feel you were different to the other boys/girls that you went to school with or were friends with?

he has said to his mother that he knows that he is different to other boys and knows not to mention wanting a doll house to the boys in his class.

shay_562

did you know you were gay when you were eight?

Not at the time, I don't think I even really understood what gay was, didn't twig til I was about 13-14. But to answer your second post, yeah, I always felt a bit different - whether that's 'cause I'm gay or 'cause I'm generally a tad odd is open for debate.

how did people in your family react around you?

If they noticed anything, they didn't comment or react. They thought for years that I was going out with my best friend, so that could have been part of it.

how distressing was the taunting in school?

Less distressing than the beatings in school. Sticks and stones etc.

Terry

sorry to hear about the beatings.
that is one of the things that worries my cousin too.
they two gay guys in my year didn't get beaten up regularly. the odd punch here or there, but nothing more than anyone else got. i suppose they were lucky in that aspect. although i'm sure the verbal abuse wasn't too easy for them or you for that matter.

on the matter of beatings; is it a regular occurance in schools or are some people just unfortunate to live near complete ****?

shay_562

they two gay guys in my year didn't get beaten up regularly. the odd punch here or there, but nothing more than anyone else got.

Does the kid go to a mixed school or all boys? 'Cause that can make a huge difference - I got a lot of hassle when I was in a single-sex school, but when I moved back to a mixed one there was much less aggro. Guys tend to be less aggressive when there's girls around.

Terry

it's a mixed school. all his school friends are girls.
he will be going to a mixed secondary school too.

damien

Aren't you confusing gender constructs and sexuality here? My cousin played with dolls as a kid, even had his own dolls house and he is very heterosexual in his adult years. I played with action-men and cars and loved my toy guns. I grew up on over the top macho action movies. Big difference between conceived gender roles and sexuality.

Terry

i see where you're coming from with that, but it's the wanting to be a girl and a few other things that i can't think of now.

i don't know if he is gay and i couldn't really care less. i'm just worried about how he will be treated by other kids when they see him playing with dolls and stuff.
he is a very introverted child and takes everything to heart.

you may be right and he possibly is heterosexual. i just wanted to get some feedback from people who are gay and see if they were the same at that age. i also would like some advice on the best way of expalining to him that being gay is nothing to be ashamed of

i know quite a few homophobes (as i'm sure you all do) and have seen how they treat gay people with contempt. that thing about homophobes being closet gays is untrue in my opinion. some people are just **** and that's all.

i'll get back to this in the morning when i'm not tired and i'll try to make a bit more sense then.

the fact of the matter is, he is not your average eight year old boy.

spurious

He sounds like a nice kid and I think it's fantastic he has been allowed grow up in a home where he can play with whatever toys he wants. The playing with non stereotypical toys doesnt mean he's gay though.

I always knew there was something different about me. I would see other girls playing at weddings and 'house' and I knew I found it deathly boring. I never saw myself as having kids or a husband or any of that stuff. I did not want to be a boy though, but I was well aware they had a lot more opportunities than I had.

When I first became attracted to girls at about 12 or so, I actually believed all girls felt the same as I did and it was a bit of a shock to find out they didn't.

I always had a positive self-image regarding my sexuality and possibly as a result of this I never encountered any bullying at school.

Hmm_Messiah

Nothing in your first post suggests that the kid may be gay, all I see is a young chap who's already found his interests/likes are contrary to the norm and knows its not such a good idea to go against the norm. Hence the secret of wanting a dolls house etc.

he actually sounds a well adjusted kid knowing how to play roles, but also maintain what interests him.

My nephews happily play house and teasets, and even have spent hours with dollies before heading to hurling and football practice. they spend equal time with their action men and knights and dragons.

I think play today is much less structured as male/female and your friend might be seeing a problem that won't really develop. I'd agree with Damien that this is definitely a gender role thingy.

The kid also comes across as sensitive. that is a good thing despite the threat of emotional hurt. And its not a gay thing!

Your other questions are hard to answer, as the experience of growing up gay is mostly unique, and in many ways dependent on the reaction and support of family, friends, teachers, peers.

Your weak gay joke thrown in might also indicate what indeed the real problem is , if any. People being uncomfortable with the subject so they either react against it or joke about it etc.

A nephew spends most of hsi time in a scooby doo costume .
I can only imagine the future trauma he faces in school, and will he be welcomed by other....dogs

PS. Of course the kid could be gay. so what ?

Dudess

I remember when I was little, I hated boys and made no secret of my wish that girls could marry girls!:D Bet that went down well with the grown-ups back in early eighties Ireland! But that was just typical "all boys are horrid" stuff that a lot of little girls go on with. As it turned out, I'm heterosexual.
However, on the other hand, my best mate, who's a gay guy, had no interest in typical "boys' toys" and would only play with his sisters' Barbies, Girls' World and Fashion Wheel. He also begged his mum to buy him a handbag and he wore veils!:D People who don't know him and hear those stories presume he's a majorly swishy queen, but he has absolutely no interest in "camp culture" (for want of a better expression) as an adult. So it's all very ambiguous.

Lunoma

Well, I have to be honest! I am a gay fella and when I was younger, although I had boy friends, I played a lot with my girl cousin and her friends. I used to play with "Puppie In My Pocket" and half a dozen other girly stuff.

Then when I was 12, I met a camp boy in my class like myself. I was so attracted to him. We used to play together and listen to the Spice Girls. One day, we kissed each other. Then he moved house, and I was heartbroken . The last thing I heard was that he had a boyfriend and left school early to become a hairdresser ironically!

I tried to convince myself for years that I wasn't gay, it was just a pre-teen phase. But as they say "The Nile is a river in Egypt" and now I'm very openly gay and still adore girly stuff and I've stopped caring what anyone else thinks.

Julep, your cousin sounds like a really sweet kid and if he wants to play with girly stuff, let him. If he turns out to be gay, so what? If he turns out to be straight, so what? But its the peer pressure which worries you. And that's understandable. School and childhood can be very cruel at times, especially when your "different". I had a double-barrel of hardship. One was because I was Jewish and the second because I was camp and girly. But just be supportive of your cousin, and once he's happy playing with dolls and dollhouses, leave him be! Good luck!

Dudess

A camp, Jewish guy - OI! I want to meet you!!! (sorry for stereotyping)

Lunoma

Hey! I'm not Orthodox . . . I'm a Reform Jew so we allow gay marriages and stuff. Camp Jewish fellas as raging in America but in Israel / Palestine, they get oppressed and can go to jail even! Anyway, I don't wear the silly hat and long sideburns. I have a sense of fashion! Hello!

Dudess

But you are an acid-tongued Joan Rivers type, aren't you? Please say yes!

damien

Lunoma wrote:

Hey! I'm not Orthodox . . . I'm a Reform Jew so we allow gay marriages and stuff. Camp Jewish fellas as raging in America but in Israel / Palestine, they get oppressed and can go to jail even! Anyway, I don't wear the silly hat and long sideburns. I have a sense of fashion! Hello!

I dunno, Jewish sideburns yet with a shaved head and the class black combat pants and boots and white shirt. Well that's how they dressed in Paris.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OP - Saw a really good French film with a similiar situation called Ma Vie En Rose. Might be worth a looksee...?

Nevyn

My eight year old is very emotional, empathic, hates rock and roll, loves disco and abba, loves disco dancing esp when yearing bear ears and sleeps with his teddy bear.

OH MY GODS my son is a Gay Furry with plushie tendancies NOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!

Pff he is 8 no one know how he will turn out yet, give the children a chance to be and grow and don't restrict them, well unless they are burning or cutting up the local cats.

Terry

my cousins sister called over earlier today (to talk about her own bad experience with a gay man. another story for another day and something i'm not going to go into on a public forum, as per her request. although, if anyone knows anything about "cured gays", please PM me.) and she pretty much agreed with what you all said. she did however point out that none of you really know the kid and i didn't give a good enough description of his personality.
at the end of the day, he comes from a verty large and very open minded family. one that will love him no matter what his sexual preference turns out to be.
he plays with girls and toys aimed at girls. he has no male friends. his mother doesn't care about that. she is just worried about how he will be treated by the other kids in school.
she would like to know if he is gay, but only so that she could nurture him and let him know that it is ok and that she will love him regardless.


like it or not, the is still a stigma attached to homosexuality and i don't see that changing for a long time.
granted, it isn't as bad for adults as it is for kids, but all gay kids still have to go through the bullying. yeah, preaching to the choir.
any kid bullying him will be dragged home by the scruff of the neck and their parents wqill be given a stern lecture about tolerance from me or one of my 48 strong extended family. i won't stand back and watch a child as sensitive as him be bullied.
on the plus side, he is quite big for his age. he is not at all aggressive, but hopefully his size will scare away the bullies.

yeah, the last two sentences were quite childish, but it's bullies i'm referring to here and that is the only thing they understand.

spurious

As a teacher, and speaking from my own personal experience, bullies will target people they feel have a low enough self-image to not 'fight' back. His size won't enter into it. It is his positive self-image that will protect him.

gilroyb

julep wrote:

she would like to know if he is gay, but only so that she could nurture him and let him know that it is ok and that she will love him regardless.

It is obvious that your feelings come from a place of caring, but I think this quote shows the problem with this issue. A mothers love shouldn't change in any way depending on the sexuality of their child. This child's mother is so eager to show she loves her son, she may possibly have forgotten that their child is not just one facet of a personality, but a whole being. If this child ends up being bullied in later life, their mother shouldn't act because their sexuality is being discriminated against, they should act because their child is being bullied, whatever the reason for this bullying. You ask about how to show that homosexuality is not a issue, and yet ignore the fact that you wouldn't ask this question if it really wasn't an issue. In my school life I saw children getting bullied for being tall, small, fat, ginger haired, anything really; and yet I have never seen a thread on the internet saying "Eight years old and fat?". Children may have a whole range of hobbies that are different to those of their parents, and I believe you are best to deal with this issue as you would with any other pastime. Don't be overly supportive of it before the child actually expresses and interest (ie don't say something like, "so that girl is just a friend then, yes? because I think it would be just great if you were 'special' friends with another boy"). If this woman's son clearly identifies a homosexual preference then she should nurture and support it just as she would with any other preference a child may have different to her own preference.

You seem worried that others will discriminate negatively against this child based on his sexuality, but if you re-read your posts you should see that you also are discriminating against them, even though it is in a positive fashion. You have described a range of behavioral traits which certainly aren't 'standard' among all, or even the majority of, homosexuals, to this young child. If he turns out to be gay, then your relation can act within that, but I would certainly try and avoid situations where one gets to show just how much one loves 'the gays'.

Think of how you would act in this hypothetical situation. The child is believed to like licking the back of things. From this their parent assumes they like stamp collecting. They worry that their child will be slagged for this 'nerdy' past-time, and so take any opportunity to show their child that stamp collectors are all great people and all really nice guys. This analogy sounds flippant I know, but honestly if you want to support this child then the best behavior is to act the same whether the child is gay, bi, or transgendered. The only difference this parent actually has to prepare for is that there may be no father of the bride to pay for the eventual wedding, other than that they should not try and positively discriminate without knowing the situation regarding their son for certain.

This child's parents obviously love him, not any one trait he possesses. This is all parents need to remember and all they have to concern themselves with in cases like this. I understand that your initial (and subsequent) posts are placed with the best of intentions, but try and remember that a child is a range of personality traits and behavioral idiosyncrasies. Love the child, not the particular traits. You said that the child's mother pointed out that none of us know the child's personality, I advise taking this into account and remember, "there are no gay people, just people who are gay". Every person is different. If a bully attacks that difference, always remember that the problem is not the child's difference, but the bully's intolerance.

Victor

My two year old niece loves kicking a football, does that mean .... I don't think we can label **children** as sexually one way or the other.

This thread bring up a few thoughts and memories.

As a kid I seriously wondered what it would be like to be a girl. I'm not sure if I wanted to be a girl, but I did wonder.

I also wanted a baby sister (I ended up with two younger brothers ) or even a miniature woman (a la Thumbellina), but I think that was a control thing - most of my day was controlled by women.

Why don't nuns have children?

I didn't overly mind playing with girly toys, but dolls didn't do anything for me.

I only found out that (known) aliens didn't exist until I was 11.

When I was about 17-18, I was "confused" about a guy, but that was because he looked like a girl.

As an adult, watching my nieces one Christmas when the middle one was just too old to get Barbie (it was no longer cool!), she was still eyeing up the youngest one's Barbie presents.

My sister is on the parent's committee of the kid's school. She has done bits like the school photos and the year book for 6th class. I'm not sure how the topic arose, but I made a comment on the impracticalites of some part of the school uniform. She said that most of the mother demanded tha the pinafore be retained, as it meant they were "prettier" like that. Sometimes adults are the ones with the real confusion.

---

has no male friends

- the ratio of boys to girls (of my age) on my street was about 14:3. From age 7 to 20 there were no girls in my class. Social groups hugely affect the friends children (and others) have.

he plays with girls and toys aimed at girls. he has no male friends.

Maybe he doesn't like the boys in his social group(s).

any kid bullying him will be dragged home by the scruff of the neck and their parents wqill be given a stern lecture about tolerance from me or one of my 48 strong extended family. i won't stand back and watch a child as sensitive as him be bullied.

Well thats one way to destroy his self esteem: 'I need other people to fight my battles'

he is a very introverted child and takes everything to heart.

and life experience, not sheltering will help him overcome that.

Terry

i suppose i have over-reacted about this.
again, i thank you all for your enlightening replies and your help on this matter.
i'll be back in 8 years when he has matured

lifesucks

I know a girl who when she was younger used to tell her parents that she wanted to be a boy when she was older and she used to wear 'manly clothes' and sometimes still does. recently i was with her somehwere and someone confused her for a lad.... this girl is now 19 and as straight as can be.....

Lunoma

Dudess wrote:

But you are an acid-tongued Joan Rivers type, aren't you? Please say yes!

I could be!

damien.m wrote:

I dunno, Jewish sideburns yet with a shaved head and the class black combat pants and boots and white shirt. Well that's how they dressed in Paris.

The French Parisians have a strange fashion sense really. Leur mode est tres bizzare! Perhaps I'll keep my hair though......


J'adore "Ma Vie En Rose". It means seeing my life throught rose-coloured glasses!

Rozie

This sounds like more of a transgender thing than a homosexual thing - though probably only to a mild degree.

Things like dolls are designed purposely to appeal to girls and the way they think - not just their gender rolls. It's hard to seperate gender rolls from inherent behaviour but the fact is that male, hetero or homo, brains differ quite a lot from female brains.

tonyinuae

Rozie wrote:

This sounds like more of a transgender thing than a homosexual thing - though probably only to a mild degree.

Things like dolls are designed purposely to appeal to girls and the way they think - not just their gender rolls. It's hard to seperate gender rolls from inherent behaviour but the fact is that male, hetero or homo, brains differ quite a lot from female brains.

I thought it was more a case of the effect of hormones rather than the actual brain itself.

Stark

There's a particular area of the hippocampus that varies in size depending on the individual's gender and sexuality. Straight men, women who identify as men and lesbian women have larger areas than gay men, men who identiy as women and straight women.

Hmm_Messiah

So straight men have bigger ones then ?


ironic:D

Sapien

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

So straight men have bigger ones then ?


ironic:D

Bigger hippocami. At the expense of the rest of the brain.

Stark

Sapien wrote:

Bigger hippocami

It's hippocampi.

bspoke

I wouldnt worry about it too much OP. When I was a kid I used to play with dolls aswell - well cabbage patch kids anyway! I had more female friends than male and because of this spent most of my day doing "girly" things. Anyone remember that fancy paper stuff that girls used to collect?? I had ton s of the stuff

I was fairly big for my age as well and while I was verbally bullied in school it wasnt over my 'girliness' but more over my ginger hair!

Now I am all grown up and am a happily married man. Some kids just dont like playing with the toys they are "meant" to paly with- I could regularily be found playing dress up with Cabbage patch dolls or Barbies or whatever else was lying around

Lunoma

Oh, I was also slagged for my gorgeous ginger hair. Kids were so mean. Now, everyone always comments on my ginger hair by saying it's nice. I should set up an anti-discriminitary group for red-haired people! lol

bspoke

sign me up for that anyway!

I dont get compliments for my hair but at least the mental torture has stopped. God damn celtic roots why have you done this to me lol

UU

Hey, I have short curly reddish hair. Many other gay fellas find it really attractive as do some girls. I love my Celtic roots! I think my ancestors came from Scandanavia or somewhere like that. Sometimes I'm a bit Vikingish!!!

damien

Is everyone with red hair gay?

Twinkle-star15

damien.m wrote:

Is everyone with red hair gay?

Now who's stereotyping, lol.

GretchenWieners

To the OP: I just want to say I actually know two gay guys, one big into soccer(actually really good at it), the other massively into watersports. Both pretty sporty you could say. But they both say that it was what they were brought up with and what they enjoyed that lead to them getting so into it now. Of course they didn't come out for a long time but it goes to show that anybody could turn out gay at any time. Sure there's even stories of married men who split up with wives and come out of the closet etc in their 30s.

I don't think you can define what a child is going to end up like just by what they do as a child. I know loads of people who'd admit they would've played with a girly toy or whatever, if it's around the place it fills up time and when you're 8 days last a lot longer!! I think it's great that all your family are willing to support him etc, make sure the child knows that!! It'll make him feel even better about himself. Maybe he doesn't have male friends because the guys in his calss are total idiots? I just finished my LC and I couldn't stand about 90% of my year! Basically because they had something up their ass (not a part of another guy!) and had attitude problems. Also, it might almost be a good idea to get him into some kind of sport which he would enjoy, there are other options besides Hurling, GAA and Soccer!! He might love something like Tennis, Karate or Watersports even.
Most of this was already said but hope something helps anyway!
Good luck!

antSionnach

My parents have a good few pictures knocking around of me as a child wearing my Ma's hats! wtf!! They were massive bonnetty type things. Apparently I used to refuse to take them off and wore them down to the shop and everything. Looking at photos I also looked extremely feminine as a child, very strange. My parents must be seriously relaxed about this sort of stuff, but anyway I turned out straight. So dolls is probably not that different, and nothing to worry about. The best thing you can do is ignore it imo.