Fookin' AK tourney hand

NickyOD

$30 buy in 12.5K gtd on UB. 120 runners left and 40 get paid. Blinds are 100-200 and I have 3200.

UTG (5.4K) whom I have no info on makes a minimum raise to 400. I have AKs and I'm next to act. The table is Ten handed.

What's my play?

cardshark202

make 1300 to play and call any push/push any flop.

or else just go all yin pre.

peeko

cardshark202 wrote:

or else just go all yin pre.

cool, I get this...

cardshark202 wrote:

make 1300 to play and call any push/push any flop

is this a standard with AKs in this position?

Would you not be better raising 1200 and seeing how opponent acted in position on the flop? He may put us all in on a bluff, but a min raise UTG could also mean a stong hand. If he had a strong strong hand I guess he would re-raise are initial 1200 bet. Hmmmm... but he could still have 1010/JJ/QQ and if we miss our flop then he's on top.

If he folds after betting the 1200 he still 2000 to play with. And the blinds are small enough for that to get him a bit of play.

I'm not suggesting he do this, just mearly looking for your opinions on it and trying to figure out the logic myself!

Gholimoli

Nicky,
You have a shallow stack which will not allow you to raise and get away from a missed flop with AK.
Also you’re desperately out of position with a lot of people acting behind you.
To compensate for all of this I think the best play is to push. if oyu get called chances are your almost always 50/50 which is not bad really at this stage with that stack.

ocallagh

Gholimoli wrote:

Nicky,
You have a shallow stack which will not allow you to raise and get away from a missed flop with AK.
Also you’re desperately out of position with a lot of people acting behind you.
To compensate for all of this I think the best play is to push. if oyu get called chances are your almost always 50/50 which is not bad really at this stage with that stack.

agree with all of this.

Gholi - when you manage to submit one post with no spelling mistakes i'll buy ye a pint!

Gholimoli

ocallagh wrote:

agree with all of this.

Gholi - when you manage to submit one post with no spelling mistakes i'll buy ye a pint!

its my trade mark man,its like asking Jonathon Ross to say Train instead of Twain ...!

accensi0n

Push.

Min-raise at the 100/200 level... I expect this to be something like KJs in a 30 game.

Culchie

NickyOD wrote:

$30 buy in 12.5K gtd on UB. 120 runners left and 40 get paid. Blinds are 100-200 and I have 3200.

UTG (5.4K) whom I have no info on makes a minimum raise to 400. I have AKs and I'm next to act. The table is Ten handed.

What's my play?

It's a push or fold move for me Nicky, your stack doesn't allow for any other choices really...the UTG min raise will obviously be ringing alarm bells.

Once upon a time, this would have been an auto push, must be getting soft.

I don't think pushing is a mistake, you still have 16BB's so not critical yet, but just calling is leaving too many difficult decisions to make post flop.

I think I bite my lip and fold this....instinct kicking in, bad position, full table etc..

Hawk Eye

Culchie wrote:

I think I bite my lip and fold this....instinct kicking in, bad position, full table etc..

Tell me this a joke. You can't fold AKs just cause UTG min-raised at this stage of the tourney.
Granted UB mtt players are more competent than on party or stars but you can't fold JJ+,AQs+,AKo to this action.
Pushing is your best option although raising 1300-1500 as cardshark suggested is good to as long as you follow up on any flop.

Culchie

Hawk Eye wrote:

Tell me this a joke. You can't fold AKs just cause UTG min-raised at this stage of the tourney.
Granted UB mtt players are more competent than on party or stars but you can't fold JJ+,AQs+,AKo to this action.
Pushing is your best option although raising 1300-1500 as cardshark suggested is good to as long as you follow up on any flop.

If you can't fold AK preflop when your instinct tells you so, the joke is not on me my friend.

ianmc38

Hawk Eye wrote:

Tell me this a joke. You can't fold AKs just cause UTG min-raised at this stage of the tourney.

Lol. It's only ace high.

Hawk Eye

The UTG min-raise steel is sooooooooooooo last year.

Culchie

Hawk Eye wrote:

The UTG min-raise steel is sooooooooooooo last year.

Getting yourself all tangled up in a mess with a hand that you have a bad feeling about out of position on a full table is sooooooooo not cool.

Hawk Eye

Why are you worried about position so much. Your going to have position on UTG if you don't push and nobody is going to raise/call you after that action from the early postioners.
What kind of range UTG has. Since you have AK theres only 6 possible holdings for AA/KK and being dealt this is .48% (6/1225), so at a full table your about a 27-1 shot to be a huge underdog here.

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

Why are you worried about position so much. Your going to have position on UTG if you don't push and nobody is going to raise/call you after that action from the early postioners.
What kind of range UTG has. Since you have AK theres only 6 possible holdings for AA/KK and being dealt this is .48% (6/1225), so at a full table your about a 27-1 shot to be a huge underdog here.

How likely is it that you are a big favourite?

Hawk Eye

fuzzbox wrote:

How likely is it that you are a big favourite?

A min raise could easily mean KJs+,KQo,ATs+, so to answer your question your more likely to be a big fav than in a race situation.
Anyway at this stage your a long way away from ITM stage,UB have the deepest-stack MTT's so I would be more than happy to race here if he did have 88-TT.

ianmc38

I've very very rarely seen someone minraise 88/TT/KJs/KQ/ATs from UTG. Very very very rarely.

Hawk Eye

ianmc38 wrote:

I've very very rarely seen someone minraise 88/TT/KJs/KQ/ATs from UTG. Very very very rarely.

No half decent player minraises UTG with AA-32o.

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

A min raise could easily mean KJs+,KQo,ATs+, so to answer your question your more likely to be a big fav than in a race situation.
Anyway at this stage your a long way away from ITM stage,UB have the deepest-stack MTT's so I would be more than happy to race here if he did have 88-TT.

1. You dont have to race every chance you get
2. If you are called, then you are almost never ahead !!
3. Sometimes you are totally destroyed

I dont mind pushing if he can call me with AQ- OR if he can fold 99- (or even 88- or 77- ... you get the idea).

Call is not unreasonable here, and neither is fold, and neither is push, and neither is raise smaller, and bet the rest on the flop.

But a lot depends on what he minraises with, and how likely he is to fold a medium-small pair.

I've been playing some tourneys of late, and I am getting called by 55 and 66 somewhat often in these sort of spots (where I shove .. and they call with 55). If this is the case, then I prefer not to gamble at this point.

ianmc38

Hawk Eye wrote:

No half decent player minraises UTG with AA-32o.

1. Nicky never said he was decent.
2. Most bad players online like to minraise KK/AA UTG (that's not to say this guy has AA or KK, but I wouldn't rule it out).
3. Decent players don't generally minraise preflop with any cards.

NickyOD

If this is party poker I'm putting UTG on something marginal like KJ 80% of te time but on UB I'm not quite sure yet as the players are much better. I agree with fuzzbox that an argument could be made for folding, raising to 1200 or pushing in this spot. I wanted to fold but intead I made it 1200. He called. The flop came Q-9-6 and he pushed. I folded.

peeko

So he checked the flop after min-raising preflop, and calling the PFrR you made? AJ/JJ?

How often is this likely to happen. What do you reckon he raised with?

After reading this thread I thought the push was the best option PF..

Dey were Sooted

I believe a fold is quiet possible here , as I too find alot of players min raise utg with AA - KK . Sometimes it's just better to protect your place in the tourney and wait for a better opportunity to increase your stack .

Hawk Eye

fuzzbox wrote:

1. You dont have to race every chance you get
2. If you are called, then you are almost never ahead !!
3. Sometimes you are totally destroyed

Response to your 3 points.
1. I'm fully aware of concept 1 but thanks for letting me know.
2. You contradicted this point later on in your post when you said you get called by 55 sometimes. He's going to call with JJ,QQ.
3. See point 2.

BTW calling PF is horrible.

From the results Nicky just posted he never had AA,KK.

Pushing is best.

Hawk Eye

NickyOD wrote:

If this is party poker I'm putting UTG on something marginal like KJ 80% of te time but on UB I'm not quite sure yet as the players are much better. I agree with fuzzbox that an argument could be made for folding, raising to 1200 or pushing in this spot. I wanted to fold but intead I made it 1200. He called. The flop came Q-9-6 and he pushed. I folded.

UB players are better so why didn't you push PF. Your only going to hit the flop 1/3 of the time so raising 35% of your stack and then folding to a push is BAD.
Never put out so much of your stack and not follow on a flop like this.

NickyOD

Hawk Eye wrote:

UB players are better so why didn't you push PF. Your only going to hit the flop 1/3 of the time so raising 35% of your stack and then folding to a push is BAD.
Never put out so much of your stack and not follow on a flop like this.

How the hell can I follow up on the flop if he pushes first? Obviously if he checks to me I'm pushing but if goes first and I've missed I can't call. I am not pot committed. As fuzzbox mentioned pushing preflop when your stack is this deep just makes it look like AK and there's no reall value in it unless you are confident of being looked up by an unpaired hand.

cardshark202

NickyOD wrote:

If this is party poker I'm putting UTG on something marginal like KJ 80% of te time but on UB I'm not quite sure yet as the players are much better. I agree with fuzzbox that an argument could be made for folding, raising to 1200 or pushing in this spot. I wanted to fold but intead I made it 1200. He called. The flop came Q-9-6 and he pushed. I folded.

I would be tempted to call the push depending on the type of player

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

Response to your 3 points.
1. I'm fully aware of concept 1 but thanks for letting me know.
2. You contradicted this point later on in your post when you said you get called by 55 sometimes. He's going to call with JJ,QQ.
3. See point 2.

BTW calling PF is horrible.

From the results Nicky just posted he never had AA,KK.

Pushing is best.

You do know that 55 is ahead of AK right?

Calling is not horrible.

NickyOD

cardshark202 wrote:

I would be tempted to call the push depending on the type of player

Why? I will be miles behind 100% of the time?

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

I would be tempted to call the push depending on the type of player

I dont think you have odds, and he surely has a made hand.

Hawk Eye

But you are nearly getting the pot-odds to hit your 6-outer 2k into a 4.7k pot well not quite but with blinds going up and antes coming in your going to have less than 7BB and hitting on this level soon.
Also JT is possibility.

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

But you are nearly getting the pot-odds to hit your 6-outer 2k into a 4.7k pot well not quite but with blinds going up and antes coming in your going to have less than 7BB and hitting on this level soon.
Also JT is possibility.

How do you know that its a 6-outer? It could be a 3 outer ... or a no outer.

Culchie

Hawk Eye wrote:

But you are nearly getting the pot-odds to hit your 6-outer 2k into a 4.7k pot well not quite but with blinds going up and antes coming in your going to have less than 7BB and hitting on this level soon.
Also JT is possibility.

Can we now see that folding AK preflop OOP is not always a 'joke'. This is looking awful complicated.

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

Pushing is best.

Explain why you believe this.

Hawk Eye

fuzzbox wrote:

You do know that 55 is ahead of AK right?

Calling is not horrible.

Calling a min-raise from 2nd position at a full table is not poor play?????????

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

Calling a min-raise from 2nd position at a full table is not poor play?????????

Why do you believe that it is?

NickyOD

Hawk Eye wrote:

But you are nearly getting the pot-odds to hit your 6-outer 2k into a 4.7k pot well not quite but with blinds going up and antes coming in your going to have less than 7BB and hitting on this level soon.
Also JT is possibility.

Nearly getting the pot odds IF you believe you both your cards are still live is hardly a solid argument for calling the postflop push. Do you always call when you nearly have pot odds?

Hawk Eye

fuzzbox wrote:

Explain why you believe this.

Ok. A push doesn't scream AKs more likely a PP here so you might get a call from AQ,AJ or even KQ so there is value in a push.
Lets say you get called 22-QQ worst case its 53-47 race.
Also see posts #14 and #25.

cardshark202

The reason I might call is if I think I'm being stop & go'd.
I do think a push preflop gets looked up by many unpaired hands. Happens all the time on stars tourneys. In fact I would often push with AQ here too. I've been called by A7o, QJo, all sorts.

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

Can we now see that folding AK preflop OOP is not always a 'joke'. This is looking awful complicated.

No I agree with you. I don't think folding is bad. I have often folded AK to a single raise depending on the player. I think overall reraising is is probbaly close to a break even play in this particular spot.

Hawk Eye

NickyOD wrote:

Nearly getting the pot odds IF you believe you both your cards are still live is hardly a solid argument for calling the postflop push. Do you always call when you nearly have pot odds?

Ok your right at I was only clutching at straws for your post flop play but fcuk it gamble (5k is the average stack), its only a $30 MTT.

Culchie

NickyOD wrote:

No I agree with you. I don't think folding is bad. I have often folded AK to a single raise depending on the player. I think overall reraising is is probbaly close to a break even play in this particular spot.

It was Hawkeye I was trying to get the point across to Nicky.

I don't like the call Fuzzbox is advocating, having to hit with 3 cards, for me it's a fold or a push ... depending on read/gut.

From the way you outlined the hand and stack sizes, position, opposition blah blah blah , I lean towards fold here...keep it simple.

fuzzbox

Culchie: I didnt advocate a call, I said it wasnt horrible. The fact that the AK is sooted makes a call more attractive.

fuzzbox

Hawk Eye wrote:

Ok. A push doesn't scream AKs more likely a PP here so you might get a call from AQ,AJ or even KQ so there is value in a push.
Lets say you get called 22-QQ worst case its 53-47 race.
Also see posts #14 and #25.

I disagree that push doesnt scream AK, utg minraises, and utg+1 shoves. And you think utg+1 is shoving with 77-TT often?

If thats the case, then AQ/AJ/KQ fold, but the pairs call. Thus I'm either 45/55 behind, or screwed if he has AK.

Getting your money in as a small underdog or a big underdog is bad.

Culchie

fuzzbox wrote:

Culchie: I didnt advocate a call, I said it wasnt horrible. The fact that the AK is sooted makes a call more attractive.

Ah yeh I know Fuzz ... the call is OK sometimes if the stacks are way deeper.

fuzzbox

Well some1 in later position could move in OTT, and utg could fold and we could call as a fave vs their range.
Or we could see a 5 way flop and hit a flush.

Hawk Eye

fuzzbox wrote:

I disagree that push doesnt scream AK, utg minraises, and utg+1 shoves. And you think utg+1 is shoving with 77-TT often?

If thats the case, then AQ/AJ/KQ fold, but the pairs call. Thus I'm either 45/55 behind, or screwed if he has AK.

Getting your money in as a small underdog or a big underdog is bad.

I never play pocket pairs like that but I've seen loads that do.