Sorry, another 'which car should I buy' thread

elven

OK, if you help me out, you can come over to the photography forum and ask which camera to buy

We're looking for new or ex-demo, possibly up to 1 year old, 1.2 and upwards, with alloys, electrics and generally nice trim (downsizing from an Audi A3, I'll miss my toys...) and not one of these teeny weeny hyundai getz type things. The budget is about 15500.

So far, have narrowed it down to 3:

Ford Fiesta, Connect 1.25 - brand new list price 16650 but they knock 1k off it straight off. It's a sturdy car - but it's also a bit heavy and slightly sluggish, probably the same ratio of power to weight with the A3 1.6. It's got a lot of toys, nice trim and it's a good size. It gets pretty crap reviews though, and apparently doesn't hold its value well. We're hoping in 3 years time to trade in so residuals are fairly important, don't want to end up owing far more than the thing is worth.

Fiat Punto Grande, I think we can get an ex-demo/1 year old for 15k-ish, but it would be the 1.4 rather than the 1.2. Not sure how much of a difference that would make in the flesh though. It seems awfully expensive for a Fiat and not sure about the reliability since it's such a new model. But it's very pretty. Yes, I'm a girl.

Renault Clio - I just spoke to someone at a dealership and they said I could go for the 1.2 basic trim brand new and they'd do it for about 15100, but that doesn't have alloys and the reviews say it's a bit weedy for the weight of the car. He was keen to do a deal with a pre-reg/ex demo though, said we could get the higher trim for the same price with less than 5k miles on the clock. All the 'what car' and top gear people seem to love the clio, and it seems to have that extra bit of class over the others.

We've ruled out the polo (too expensive, had one already and was heavy so needed a bigger engine for the same size car), the corsa (yuck, yuck yuck, plasticky yuckiness), a close runner up was the chevrolet lacetti but it was just that bit too expensive because you'd need to get the sporty 1.8 to really make it worth your while, ummmm, the yaris is just too wee, a 206 is expensive and to my knowledge unreliable, a fabia is quite unattractive and slightly out of budget, have I missed anything? Oh, the Micra. That would be... 'no'.

Personally I'm thinking that the clio would be worth the stretch, having said that I haven't driven one yet. The husband is swaying towards the grande punto. Does anyone have any experience with any of these, or suggestions we might have overlooked?

Everyone I've asked already keeps telling me to buy an 03-04 focus or something... but we want a car with some manufacturers warranty, and also that's not going to be 6 or 7 years old by the time we want to trade in.

If you've read this far, thank you. If you reply, thank you very much indeed

colm_mcm

If you're considering keeping the car for 4 or 5 years, rule out the Clio and Grande Punto.

Every time a new Punto comes out it is hailed as the car that will put any cynics fears at patchy reliability and resale to rest. Every time, they're wrong. (that said they have a 4 year warranty, so at least you won't have to pay for its visits to your un-friendly Fiat dealer)

The Clio is a Renault, therefore it will break. That said, it is quite large and easy on the eye. Short warranty though.

How about a Seat Ibiza? ( I know it's an older design than the other 2, but wouldn't buy either of them)

Have you tried the 06 Yaris for size, or the old one?

cantdecide

keep the A3 and your money. it's simply just a superior car. newness is over-rated IMO. all of the above are simply just a BIG step into motoring monotony
(Colm-i'm still not looking for a fight)

colm_mcm

I actually agree wth cantdecide. I reckon the only thing discouraging you from a Focus is the lack of long warranty.
Buy a used one from a proper dealer, get a 12 month warranty. You're only gonna get 18 months on an ex demo Clio anyway and it's more likely to break down than the Focus.

Guy:Incognito

How'd I know colm would steam and anti renault line through the thread.

I'll just list my familes trouble free renaults( I should keep a copy of the long version of this post somewhere)
00 clio, 65k (I loved it, was mine till 45k , now the mothers. I just cant drive a small car anymore though) ,
93 safrane, 120k it think(was bought from damo605, great car).
97 safrane 84k, love it love it love it.
02 clio (my cousins, dont know mileage, but no issues and he loves it, upgrading to a megane soon)
various r 21's/lagunas owned by my godfather. All trouble free bar 1 tb breakage when it was WELL over due date.
now a 00 scenic which the ex absolutely loves.will be kept till she upgrades to a brand new scenic next year.

maidhc

cantdecide wrote:

newness is over-rated

Nicely put there.

maidhc

Stekelly wrote:

I'll just list my familes trouble free renaults

Renaults are banned in my family.

Guy:Incognito

have to disagree , re a new car. Nothing beats a new car. the new car smell, the knowledge that no one else has driven it ( read thrashed it) and you can be 100% about the history.

crosstownk

cantdecide wrote:

keep the A3 and your money.

Why not - If you like it then keep it and spend your money on a holiday!

elven

I love the finish of the audi, and it's so smooth and comfortable. Unfortunately, it's an 01, uk reg, and still under far too much finance to make it worth keeping, considering the problems we've had with it (electrics, leaking, temp gauge, never mind the sheer omen of bad luck when someone keyed it right along three panels 4 weeks after we got it)...

Anyway, since I've already established I'm not going to buy an older Focus, and it looks like renault aren't welcome round these parts, does anyone have any experience of the new fiestas?

We originally wanted an Ibiza (actually we wanted a leon but can only afford an ibiza) but when I sat in it i felt like I'd grudge spending that amount of money on it, very poor trim, very grey and bland inside.

I had a friend with a Yaris, it was a nice enough wee thing but felt more like an electric remote control car for some reason, it went 'shoooommmm' rather than 'grrrrrr'. I am quite technically minded, honest, it's just late.

I thought the clio had a 3 year warranty? I'm sure I specifically asked because i was shocked at the ford only giving 2 years. Looks like the Irish market is a totally different ball game to the UK.

Now I come to think of it I drove a friend's laguna - it was an old one, a 2ltr saloon, it had quite a lot of guts, and a nice solid feel. He ran that into the ground and had very few problems. The mother in law has the older shape clio and has only had trouble with a leak in the boot.

The jury is still out but I think you've well and truly put me off the punto, grande or not...

crosstownk

In that case my choice would be the Ibiza. I'd share Colms opinion of Renaults, tbh. They look great but reliability can be an issue.

colm_mcm

I don't have some irrational hang up about french cars. They really are that bad.
Seems that any of them I sell always go wrong. and these are usually low mileage.

How about a used Honda Jazz?

Guy:Incognito

colm_mcm wrote:

Seems that any of them I sell always go wrong. and these are usually low mileage.

Maybe you should look at the people your getting them from?

colm_mcm

No particular type of person trades in Renaults Peugeots and Citroens, a fair mix of people really, a pretty even spread of the different types of people that buy them new.


Nobody can seriously suggest that French cars are generally reliable, can they?

Guy:Incognito

colm_mcm wrote:

No particular type of person trades in Renaults Peugeots and Citroens, a fair mix of people really, a pretty even spread of the different types of people that buy them new.


Nobody can seriously suggest that French cars are generally reliable, can they?

Well Of 3 I've personally owned, I by the ex and one by my cousin. The only thing done are servicable parts.

As I said on another thread, the one that had the reliability surveys in it. I'd be willing to put money that a lot of the faults with renaults are niggly electrical ones and ones that occur on things that other cars dotn have or are options that not a lot of people have, but the nature of the reliability survey has everything listed under a blanket "fault". so a car much higher up the list may well have had serious, car killing faults whereas the renaults may have had a higher volume of "annoyances".

My safrane has every option I can think of, all of which works perfectly (touch wood). The only thing that comes near is a high end s class or the like.

unkel

Was going to add my support to keeping your A3, until I refreshed this thread and understood that was a no-no

elven wrote:

We're hoping in 3 years time to trade in so residuals are fairly important

All three cars above will depreciate a lot of money over the first three years, especially the Renault and the FIAT

colm_mcm wrote:

How about a used Honda Jazz?

Good suggestion. Depreciation will be in the lower range. Or what about a Skoda Fabia 1.4 16v 100BHP? Much faster than any car suggested so far, about the same as your 1.6 A3. Even though we all know that it has the same underpinnings as a VW Polo and a Seat Ibiza, it is cheaper and the dealer will do you a good deal in my experience. I got 10% off a brand new Skoda Octavia a few years ago

elven wrote:

OK, if you help me out, you can come over to the photography forum and ask which camera to buy

Might take you up on that

Kashkai

Stop knocking Renaults. I've had 10 cars and 7 of them were Renaults (all trouble free). My last one, a Megane 1.4 was bought new in 1996 and had 140,000 trouble free miles on the clock when I sold it to my sister in law last year. It passed the NCT twice for me (at the first attempt) and has once again passed the NCT for my sister in law. Give the Clio another look. The used car ads prove that they do hold their value compared to similar makes.

I'd agree with the comments about Peugeots though as I know several people who have had gearbox trouble with them.

Stay away from Fiats. Junk, Junk, Junk. I bought one once - a Fiat Bravo, it had just won Car of the Year but I had it back to the garage 8 times in six months. Electrical problems mainly but also the drivers door dropped on the hinges.

Check out the Mazda 2, the Kia Rio, new Yaris.

Finally, don't be a badge snob. The lesser known makes have more goodies packed into them and the salesmen try harder. I bought a Kia Sportage last year instead of a Landrover Freelander on the basis that the Kia has every conceivable extra you can think of while the Landrover was basic and the salesmen couldn't care less.

elven

Thanks for all your replies. This morning I saw a fabia and thought that it might be worth looking into. The Honda Jazz seems to be very well regarded, but I can't help but think it's ugly. The Kia Rio was a contender until the husband decided it looks 'plasticky'.

I do like the concept of these german pseudo vw's, when we got the audi we were looking at a leon too, but felt it wasn't as well finished -in hindsight, if we'd bought a 2003 leon instead of the 2001 A3 we'd likely be keeping it for another year or two. Ah well, lesson learned.

I'll go and check out the fabia and the rio. Seems like a lot more car for the money. Anyone heard anything about the lacetti? I like them...

bazz26

If you are concerned about resale value then cars like the Kia Rio, Chevy Lacetti and Hyundai Accent should probably be avoided. The resale value on these cars is very poor so unless you plan on keeping it for a long time I would overlook these makes.

BrianD3

No particular type of person trades in Renaults Peugeots and Citroens, a fair mix of people really

It might be the case that many people trading in their Renault for one of your Toyotas are unhappy with their Renault because it gave them a lot trouble. Car might be a lemon or they might have abused it. But anyway they decide that their next car will not be a Renault so they trade in for something different.

Whereas if somone trades in a Renault for another Renault then they're probably quite happy with the reliability. Therefore the Renault dealers get the good trade ins and other dealers get any lemons.

Same principle could apply to someone who trades in their Toyota for a Renault vs someone who trades one in for another Toyota

Aren't I clever?

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

It might be the case that many people trading in their Renault for one of your Toyotas are unhappy with their Renault because it gave them a lot trouble. Car might be a lemon or they might have abused it. But anyway they decide that their next car will not be a Renault so they trade in for something different.

Whereas if somone trades in a Renault for another Renault then they're probably quite happy with the reliability. Therefore the Renault dealers get the good trade ins and other dealers get any lemons

I suspect there might be at least a bit of truth in that

maidhc

BrianD3 wrote:

It might be the case that many people trading in their Renault for one of your Toyotas are unhappy with their Renault because it gave them a lot trouble. Car might be a lemon or they might have abused it. But anyway they decide that their next car will not be a Renault so they trade in for something different.

That is possible, but I'd put every penny I own on the fact Toyota owners don't return the favour to renault garages. I know my parents present Avensis is as close to a lemon as any car we ever had (more unlucky than anything I reckon), but it will probably be replaced by either another Avensis or an IS250.

Abuse is overrated as a cause of problems. Generally if something is going to break it is going to break, especially at the electrical side of things.

prospect

maidhc wrote:

That is possible, but I'd put every penny I own on the fact Toyota owners don't return the favour to renault garages.

Funny, a guy I work with recently changed his '02 Toyota Corolla for an '04 Renault Megane. I can introduce you to him as proof, and we can then negotiate how you propose to hand over 'every penny you own' to me.

Stereotyping, sweeping generalisations, half arzed & misinformed opinions really really are the enemy of this forum.

maidhc

prospect wrote:

Funny, a guy I work with recently changed his '02 Toyota Corolla for an '04 Renault Megane. I can introduce you to him as proof, and we can then negotiate how you propose to hand over 'every penny you own' to me.

Stereotyping, sweeping generalisations, half arzed & misinformed opinions really really are the enemy of this forum.

I didn't say it doesn't happen, but that Renault garages don't get the same number of dodgy Toyotas! Of course if you go into a renault dealership you are bound to find at least one Toyota. They are, after all, the best selling car in Ireland. It is unlikely though that the original owners of those toyotas traded them in to get some French reliability after being saddled with an unreliable jap car for 3 years.

What is likely is those toyota owners are unaware that cars actually can break down, and in their naivety assumed all cars are like what they are used to.

I can tell you about lots of renaults I know that have been nothing but trouble, but will be shouted down "because I havn't owned them".

unkel

maidhc wrote:

my parents present Avensis is as close to a lemon as any car we ever had (more unlucky than anything I reckon), but it will probably be replaced by either another Avensis or an IS250

Interesting. Are they going back to Toyota because their customer service was exceptionally good in their view? As in all / most problems with their Avensis were quickly diagnosed / fixed free of charge out of courtesy or under warranty or cheaply?

prospect

maidhc wrote:

I can tell you about lots of renaults I know that have been nothing but trouble, but will be shouted down "because I havn't owned them".

And I can tell you about the two I have owned that only ever gave small issues, that were resolved quickly and for free.

That said, I can't bloody sell the Megane, the deprecation is a killer on them.

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Interesting. Are they going back to Toyota because their customer service was exceptionally good in their view? As in all / most problems with their Avensis were quickly diagnosed / fixed free of charge out of courtesy or under warranty?

All those things. Clutch was replaced at 4 yrs/80k miles FOC. Cracked lamp was replaced FOC after my dad reveresed into a wall. Gearbox problem resolved FOC after 3 hours of adjusting at 85k. Anything else was fixed under warranty without doing more than mentioning it. So after 90k miles it still hasn't cost anything more than routine servicing.

BrianD3

maidhc wrote:

That is possible, but I'd put every penny I own on the fact Toyota owners don't return the favour to renault garages. I know my parents present Avensis is as close to a lemon as any car we ever had (more unlucky than anything I reckon), but it will probably be replaced by either another Avensis or an IS250.

I wouldn't let one lemon put me off a make of car either. But some people would. Especially with Renault as there is a general opinion out there among Joe Soaps that Renaults are a load of sh1t and Toyotas are invincible. So Joe Soap buys a Renault and it breaks down. All his friends tell him I told you so. every stereotype is confirmed, he's never buying one of those French balls of sh1t ever again. Now if he buys a Toyota and it breaks down he regards it as bad luck or he may even BLAME HIMSELF (or more likely the wife ) for the car breaking down as everyone knows that Toyota's never give any trouble right?

The marketing, brand image and even psychology associated with car buying is quite interesting
eg Skoda doing well in satisfaction surevys, VW doing badly
Comments in this forum about how great the Audi A3 is but how the VW Golf is a "bouncy car" bought by tossers
Citroen C1, Toyota Aygo, Peugeot 107, mechanically identical built in same factory, which one will be most in demand 2nd hand?

Also the type of people who buy certain makes of cars has to come into it. Personally I would bet that your average Toyota or Skoda driver is a more conservative and slower driver than say your average Ford or Renault driver. I would also disagree that abuse is overrated as a cause of problems. From what I see many of the electrical probelms that happen in modern cars are simply due to wires and plugs coming loose. Often it is just a case of reseating a plug (after spending 3 hours dismantling the dash of the car to get at it) Which car is more likely to suffer a loose wire connection - a Renault which spends its life getting hammered along bumpy roads at 80 mph? Or a Toyota Corolla driven by a conservative middle aged type who uses the car to pootle around town.

Having said all that I believe that given the same amount of abuse Toyotas are probably more reliable than Renaults or any other European car for that matter. However I think the bad reputation that some makes (renault, fiat, citroen, peugeot) have borders on hysteria and is very exaggerated.

edit: the customer service your parents received from Toyota is amazing. It's no wonder Toyotas are so popular if all owners get free replacement lights when they reverse into a wall

maidhc

BrianD3 wrote:

I would also disagree that abuse is overrated as a cause of problems. From what I see many of the electrical probelms that happen in modern cars are simply due to wires and plugs coming loose. Often it is just a case of reseating a plug (after spending 3 hours dismantling the dash of the car to get at it) Which car is more likely to suffer a loose wire connection - a Renault which spends its life getting hammered along bumpy roads at 80 mph?

That problem is ultimaltely caused by using substandard wiring. Agricultural machinery takes an unbelievable amount of abuse (and are bloody rough on the road). They don't tend to suffer from many electrical problems, despite being far more complex than even a renault. The reason for this is that they use aircraft standard wiring, whereby all the connectors lock into place, the wires are sheathed in conduits etc etc.

All that said, people are more forgiving of a troublesome toyota than a troublesome french car.

Vegeta

BrianD3 wrote:

Having said all that I believe that given the same amount of abuse Toyotas are probably more reliable than Renaults or any other European car for that matter. However I think the bad reputation that some makes (renault, fiat, citroen, peugeot) have borders on hysteria and is very exaggerated.

I would never drive a Citreon again as my brother had one and it was absolute sh1te, the worst of the problems was pulling into our estate at about all of 10mph he heard a loud clunk and when he parked in our drive he saw a pool of fluid underneath the car. The gear box had a small hole in it and all the oil came out.

My best friend had a 02 peugeot 206 and it gave him a load of trouble even though the car was kept spotless and serviced religously, the most recent was the timing belt slipping, it was no where near time to change it, luckily he didn't have to change the engine, the next week he bought a 06 civic as he was sick of the troubles it was causing him.

To be honest my brothers have had quite an array of cars and the two best for reliability were a honda civic and a ford focus, both were driven pretty hard and never gave any trouble

prospect

maidhc wrote:

That problem is ultimaltely caused by using substandard wiring. Agricultural machinery takes an unbelievable amount of abuse (and are bloody rough on the road). They don't tend to suffer from many electrical problems, despite being far more complex than even a renault.

Were Renault not one of the biggest Tractor manufacturers until they were bought out by Claas?

maidhc

prospect wrote:

Were Renault not one of the biggest Tractor manufacturers until they were bought out by Claas?

There were well up there, and were very decent machines too by all accounts.

I have a NewHolland, which are built by CNH, which in turn is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fiat. Extremly reliable and well built machines with excellent resale value! It should be noted CNH, the second largest tractor manufacturing concern in the world, is also the most valuable asset the Agnelli family own, and probably what is keeping Fiat cars from going the way of Rover. (So still on topic...)

unkel

maidhc wrote:

Clutch was replaced at 4 yrs/80k miles FOC. Cracked lamp was replaced FOC after my dad reveresed into a wall. Gearbox problem resolved FOC after 3 hours of adjusting at 85k. Anything else was fixed under warranty

Absolutely amazing, sounds like a customer service walhalla :eek:

Has your dad a particularly good relationship with the dealer? Don't tell me that anyone that bought a new Toyota from any dealer in Ireland can come back to the dealer 4 years later and has a good chance of getting a cracked lamp replaced FOC?

@BrianD3 - sound post there ^^ especially:

BrianD3 wrote:

The marketing, brand image and even psychology associated with car buying is quite interesting
eg Skoda doing well in satisfaction surevys, VW doing badly

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Has your dad a particularly good relationship with the dealer? Don't tell me that anyone that bought a new Toyota from any dealer in Ireland can come back to the dealer 4 years later and has a good chance of getting a cracked lamp replaced FOC?

Car was only 12 mths old when he broke the lamp.

My dad has no particular relationship with the garage other than having bought 5 or 6 cars from them and getting to know the service manager over the years. I suspect the cracked lamp was just a gesture of thanks, he asked them if they would repair it, they hummed and hawed, and when the car came back there was a new one on and a note on the invoice saying "condensation in rear lamp, replaced"

I'll compare with a brand new Passat my grandfather bought in a VW garage. After paying and all he asked would they fill it with diesel. They said no trouble, and while filling it the salesman said to sit into the car and see if he had any questions. After driving down the road my g/father realised the car was only half full. He has sworn he will never deal with them again.

The small things make a huge difference.

bazz26

unkel wrote:

Absolutely amazing, sounds like a customer service walhalla :eek:

Has your dad a particularly good relationship with the dealer? Don't tell me that anyone that bought a new Toyota from any dealer in Ireland can come back to the dealer 4 years later and has a good chance of getting a cracked lamp replaced FOC?

Don't sound surprised. It is not uncommon, I was trying to replace the bulb in my front headlight and accidently broke the plastic clip that keeps the socket in place along with almost removing the skin off my hand as access to this clip was very restrictive. Brought it back to the dealer expecting to pay for a replacement part, explained what happened but the whole front light was replaced under warranty as Toyota acknowledged that it was a bad design and that some customers complained. I was given a car for a couple of hours while the job was being done.

zilog_jones

BrianD3 wrote:

The marketing, brand image and even psychology associated with car buying is quite interesting
eg Skoda doing well in satisfaction surevys, VW doing badly

I think customer service makes a big impact on brand image from what I've seen here and elsewhere. I've seen a lot of complaints about VW dealers being useless w4nkers, but rarely hear anything bad about Skoda or say Toyota dealers.

And FYI, to all the people who generalise French cars as being unreliable: Where is the Toyota Yaris made? Valenciennes, FRANCE.

elven

Hmmmm, the Ibiza has just had a facelift and improved interior on the 1.4....looks tempting

http://billsheehan.webzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=433642

colm_mcm

zilog_jones wrote:

I think customer service makes a big impact on brand image from what I've seen here and elsewhere. I've seen a lot of complaints about VW dealers being useless w4nkers, but rarely hear anything bad about Skoda or say Toyota dealers.

And FYI, to all the people who generalise French cars as being unreliable: Where is the Toyota Yaris made? Valenciennes, FRANCE.

"French cars" are generaly accepted to be Peugeot, Citroen, Renault. The fact is that the Yaris is one of the most reliable cars you can buy.
It doesn't matter where the car is nailed together, what actually matters is the quality of components, the importance placed on good workmanship, and the production system used. Toyota's production system has been proved to work in countries such as Turkey, Portugal, Czeck Replubic and France, countries which aren't exactly synonmous with producing high quality cars.

charlesanto

Toyota Yaris !!!
or if must go for something else - go with honda

Conar

I'm not big up on cars, but my family has had a few Renaults so I figured I'd share the story.

My mother bought a 4-5 year old Clio a few years back and had a number of electric faults, a clutch problem, and a few other...can't remember.
She got sick of it and decided to replace it with a new Clio. She got rid of that after a year cos it had been back to the garage a number of times for electrical issue (again). Now driving a Micra which she loves.
My sister is currently driving a Laguna which is only 4 1/2 years old. It failed the NCT and Renault wanted 1200 to fix the problems, don't have the details. She ended up getting a local mechanic to do the work for about 400 so maybe it wasn't too bad. Just a few days ago she was driving home and stopped at a garage and the car would not start again. Some kind of electric fault. It had to be towed to a garage. Don't have more details.

I know all my info is second hand and not exactly very descriptive of the issues, but surely with the amount of smoke out there there's gotta be a fire.

junkyard

What about putting up a poll for French cars? I'd do it myself but I don't how to. By the way I think all French cars are crap as some of ye already know, some nice designs but terrible build quality.