Too many solicitors?

Amazotheamazing

Judging by the numbers doing the FE1's, will there soon be too many qualified solicitiors in the State? Or is there a need for the increased numbers, particularly in light of the proposed self-conveyancing planned by this current Gov.

Lplated

You could have as easily labelled this post 'Too many lawyers', i.e. include barristers in the discussion.

Not sure of the figures at Blackhall, but I am aware that circa 200 'devils' went down to the law library last year, a similar number is expected this Oct and a similar number is proposed for Oct 2007. Thus, in the three years from 2005 to 2008 incl, the numbers at the bar will have increased from ~1,500 to ~2,000.

The changes in the conveyancing practice are going to reduce legal work further, which woe you can add to the sorry tale that is the Personal Injuries Assessment Board.

Anyone would think that there was an 'anti-lawyer policy' in place in Ireland. Unfortunately, the answer is no longer to hop on the plane across the Atlantic. I happended to speak to a colleague there this morning who said (and I have no reason to disbelieve him) that the starting pay for a first year lawyer in NY is now $5K less than for a legal secretary.

If there is any benefit to the vastly expanding membership of both professions in Ireland, it is likely to be the case that the Competition Authority would remove its hob nailed boot from our respective necks. They were strongly of the view that 'barriers to entry' to the profession caused the (allegedly) high fees. Given that the amounts at tax haven't reduced significantly (or at all), it seems the CAs view might have been more theoretical than realistic.

Still, even if we haven't enough work to keep us all going, we will have plenty of underemployed colleagues to go for coffee with.

Yours in desperation,
etc.

Amazotheamazing

Exactly. I can see more than few of us spending a few post qualified years in England. I blame Ally McBeal.

The numbers passing through both institutions are frankly scary, especially with the proposed reforms coming on stream and the reforms of the Inns.

gilroyb

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Exactly. I can see more than few of us spending a few post qualified years in England. I blame Ally McBeal.

I think you'd be better off blaming the tribunal fees/fees paid in the army deafness cases. These got people even more interested in becoming a lawyer, and the state even more interested in reducing the fees paid for standard services.

Amazotheamazing

I don't really blame Ally McBeal, it's ok gilroyb.

I'm surprised there isn't more concern about this, in my class there are people with firsts still looking for apprenticeships, so I imagine it's even worse for most people coming through with no legal backround.

lomb

law is still great education and profession to learn about life and legal interest. some of the richest men in the state are lawyers, and their wealth wasnt for the most part derived from clients fees. mostly investing and property on their own account.
also its not all about money, for example gandhi was a lawyer...

Amazotheamazing

lomb wrote:

law is still great education and profession to learn about life and legal interest. some of the richest men in the state are lawyers, and their wealth wasnt for the most part derived from clients fees. mostly investing and property on their own account.
also its not all about money, for example gandhi was a lawyer...

I don't disagree with any this, but it's largely irrelevant in discussing whether or not there is too many solicitors qualifying.

Sangre

Surely there is a natural cap in place on the solicitor side of things due to requirement of apprenticeships. Surely a firm won't take on people (nepotism aside) unless they feel the need to take these on. Since they are a business they're not going to take such matters lightly I would have thought.

There is also the simple fact that are ecomony is still gowing quite steadily, thus creating a need for more lawyers.

Whether there are too many people trying to get into law is another matter. Have a friend finishing up Arts and planes on doing a post legal course in DIT. He is of the opinion he'll walk into an apprenticeship and thats the least of his worries...deluded!

Amazotheamazing

Sangre wrote:

Surely there is a natural cap in place on the solicitor side of things due to requirement of apprenticeships. Surely a firm won't take on people (nepotism aside) unless they feel the need to take these on. Since they are a business they're not going to take such matters lightly I would have thought.

There is also the simple fact that are ecomony is still gowing quite steadily, thus creating a need for more lawyers.

Whether there are too many people trying to get into law is another matter. Have a friend finishing up Arts and planes on doing a post legal course in DIT. He is of the opinion he'll walk into an apprenticeship and thats the least of his worries...deluded!

Not really, fees paid by solicitors to put an apprentice into blackhall are tax-deductable so it doesn't really cost them much, nad they get pretty cheap labour for the wages they pay. Added to that you often have a situation where solicitors will sign someone's identures in the understanding that that person will continue to look for an apprenticeship while in Blackhall.

Font22

great! I finally decide a legal career is what i want and now this thread starts!!

Amazotheamazing

Think of this for a scary figure, my Fe1 number was in the 1000-1100 bracket, and my surname is roughly halfway through the alphabet, so 2000 people sitting the FE's, each having a relatively strong chance of eventually getting all 8, the numbers qualifying has the potential to be huge.

hada

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Think of this for a scary figure, my Fe1 number was in the 1000-1100 bracket, and my surname is roughly halfway through the alphabet, so 2000 people sitting the FE's, each having a relatively strong chance of eventually getting all 8, the numbers qualifying has the potential to be huge.

ya but realistically i think 1/6 passes and gets into blackhall.

Amazotheamazing

Really, everyone i know who's sat them has eventually got all 8.

maidhc

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Think of this for a scary figure, my Fe1 number was in the 1000-1100 bracket, and my surname is roughly halfway through the alphabet, so 2000 people sitting the FE's, each having a relatively strong chance of eventually getting all 8, the numbers qualifying has the potential to be huge.

The Cork exam center starts from 0 to about 300 So dont forget us too!

I think everyone who makes an effort with the blackhalls gets in. Christ you do have 5 years from the time you pass the first 3!

hullaballoo

Font22 wrote:

great! I finally decide a legal career is what i want and now this thread starts!!

The internet isn't a conclusive dictation of real life, 22. I reckon the cap that's in place is the CAO points requirement in the LC. However, certain private colleges have scuppored that. I still think that if someone wants to be a solicitor, they have to work pretty hard at it. Other than that, they'd probably end up in a low salary job for their days.

hada

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Really, everyone i know who's sat them has eventually got all 8.

let me rephrase myself.. 1/6 (think it used to be 1/4) get in first time.

maidhc

hada wrote:

let me rephrase myself.. 1/6 (think it used to be 1/4) get in first time.

As in do all 8 and pass? Uggh. That is nervous breakdown territory.

mr.twist

just wondering does anyone have an idea of the average age of people getting all fe-1s. i hope to have just turned 24 when i have all eight but cant help thinkin thats 1 or 2 years two old?? especially now that market for solicitors is just about saturated - will younger canditates have an edge in gettin an apprenticship?? way too many are sittin the exams and have notions of high salarys upon qualification - figures just relased today( see independant) and law grauduates are amoungst the lowest pay brackets!!

maidhc

mr.twist wrote:

just wondering does anyone have an idea of the average age of people getting all fe-1s.

About 24 I reckon. I know people much older.

In fairness:
LC at 18.
BCL/LLB at 22
8 Blackhalls at 23/24

hada

maidhc wrote:

As in do all 8 and pass? Uggh. That is nervous breakdown territory.

well no. I meant get into blackhall (that would usually mean pass the entrance exams, and four of the fe1s) first time.

Don't fret!..Nothing a bit of study can't fix

mr.twist

does anyone have an idea of amount arbitration that goes on in practice as opposed to litigation? have mates doing the commercial law masters in ucd which includes arbitration qulification and they say its way to go these days as its brings money into firm alot faster! ucd have now set arbitration diploma and thinkin of doing it - anyone have any thoughts on the arbitration thing??

(thanks for reply maidhc - wasn thinkin that just needed to hear it from another source)

Duffman

Lplated wrote:

Anyone would think that there was an 'anti-lawyer policy' in place in Ireland. Unfortunately, the answer is no longer to hop on the plane across the Atlantic. I happended to speak to a colleague there this morning who said (and I have no reason to disbelieve him) that the starting pay for a first year lawyer in NY is now $5K less than for a legal secretary.

Not if you're good. You will be paid significantly more than you would be here if you decided to work as a lawyer in the US.

I'm just back from a US law school and I know people who will be earning $100k+ in their first year. Apparently if you have done something really impressive like clerked for a Supreme Court justice, you can earn $200k. Legal secretaries don't earn that much!

Lplated

I don't doubt that some (most/the majority?) lawyers are well paid in US Duffman, point was that apparently in some cases legal secretaries are paid more.