Cards mucked accidentally... anyone rule different?

Shortstack

At the Sligo €250 game a players cards were mucked after he had moved all in UTG. His hand was ruled 'dead' and he would play the board if called. The big blind called, admitting would not have called in ordinary circumstances. Obviously the all in player lost and was not particularly happy (as it happened the big blind would have won had the all in players hand been allowed to stand). As far as I am aware this is a common rule and I have never seen any other rule applied, anyone agree or disagree?

shoutman

I cant see how this could be dealt with any other way.

It was the UTGs' fault for not protecting his cards.

smurph

Shortstack wrote:

At the Sligo €250 game a players cards were mucked after he had moved all in UTG. His hand was ruled 'dead' and he would play the board if called. The big blind called, admitting would not have called in ordinary circumstances. Obviously the all in player lost and was not particularly happy (as it happened the big blind would have won had the all in players hand been allowed to stand). As far as I am aware this is a common rule and I have never seen any other rule applied, anyone agree or disagree?

That is the rule and why you should protect your cards at all times, it is a bummer when it happens to you, but should only happen the once.

Lplate

Standard ruling afaik. Presumably your rules sheet contains the standard clause about a player being responsible for protecting his own cards, in which case the player has no argument. More interesting from a morals point of view, given that the BB said he wouldn't have called otherwise. Is there a case for folding to let utg off the hook for his error, or was BB correct to take advantage of an unusual situation?

pppspecial

in my experince off playing poker when something like this happens it has to be dealt with case by case. if it was a player who has been quite the regular he should know the rules but for people learning or some1 new coming into the game that ruling was very harsh. my personal opinion on this would be determined on 2 factors a. who mucked the cards? dealer or player x and 2 the most important thing ur dealer has he done his/her job correctly?

ntlbell

pppspecial wrote:

in my experince off playing poker when something like this happens it has to be dealt with case by case. if it was a player who has been quite the regular he should know the rules but for people learning or some1 new coming into the game that ruling was very harsh. my personal opinion on this would be determined on 2 factors a. who mucked the cards? dealer or player x and 2 the most important thing ur dealer has he done his/her job correctly?

I really don't like the idea of changing the rules based on the players experience.

It will be a long time before he fails to protect his hand after something like this.

MadsL

To my shame I have done this as a dealer....:o
Fitz scalps FT - one off the bubble
UTG - raise
UTG+1 call
folded around
BB Allin by the blind

Flop QA2 rainbow
BB looks pleased and shows hand to onlooker
UTG bet
UTG+1 reraise
UTG Allin
UTG+1 call (leaving about 1BB of stack left)

BB Turns over QQ
UTG+1 22
of course UTG(harold!) AA

..next hand
Player with the ducks loses and throws last chunk of stack,
called around, checked down.
Showdown...player says "where are my cards!!"
I'd mucked 'em
he would have won the hand, but bubbles instead (AFAIK)

can't believe how graciously he took it..:(

MadsL

dealer has he done his/her job correctly?

News just in, dealers make mistakes sometimes.

I'm working on a dealerbot but can't get the personality module to work..

Waylander

Lplate wrote:

Standard ruling afaik. Presumably your rules sheet contains the standard clause about a player being responsible for protecting his own cards, in which case the player has no argument. More interesting from a morals point of view, given that the BB said he wouldn't have called otherwise. Is there a case for folding to let utg off the hook for his error, or was BB correct to take advantage of an unusual situation?

You spend the entire tournie trying to get players to make mistakes. Why would you fold when they make one? Players are responsible for watching their own cards, I know dealers can take them into the muck by mistake, but the player should still be alert enough to stop him.

bohsman

I have made very different rulings in the 30 FO, happened last Sunday - a player mucked his hand into the person who had volunteered to play and deals hand after he had reraised, the player who mucked picked his cards out and I let that stand. However in a 250 FO with proper dealers the hand is most definitely mucked.

The worst ruling I have given - and shouldnt have been allowed give as I was involved in the hand was, final table of the shorthanded 30 FO. I raise utg with QQ, aggressive player who is chip leader flat calls directly to my left, Wallko reraises all in on the button, he has me covered. The dealer mucks his hand. As theres only 4 cards in the muck I let him tell the dealer what the cards were and gave them back to him.

DeVore

I made this ruling and while its heartbreaking its the only one I could come to. The cards were taken in by the dealer in question (generally a good dealer, this was just a slip) and noone noticed until it came to the BB.

The cards had been rescued from the muck but they have been put in and mixed with the other cards to the point where noone was CERTAIN that they were his cards. I debated with myself about allowing him to call his cards and if they were the two that were rescued they could be returned but I dont like opening up that option for the future. I tried to get the BB to fold by not explaining the ruling I would make before he acted but he was smart enough to ask for an explanation of what the rules were. When I explained the situation I also allowed UTG to play the board (to give him SOME kind of out). The BB flopped the nut straight with a redraw to the nut flush and a royal so he comprehensively won but probably wouldnt have been there.

From a tournament director point of view I dont think I can do anything else. If we start making a ruling for each player two things happen:

1. We get the Connie vs Scott Gray issue with mobile phones when if the TD makes one ruling it could genuinely be for the right reasons but the smell of "well, they're mates arent they" will always linger around the decision.

2. When does a player realise they have gone from the baby rules to the big boys rules? Do they have to get a cert?

Its painful to watch some Irish players playing on the international circuit simply because they arent playing with strict rules and are allowed away with murder at home. When it comes to the EPT then they are stuffed on string bets, dead hands and other rulings.

DeV.

NickyOD

I think if its a case where the player had the cards way out on the table then yes his cards are mucked and the its not the dealers fault. What else would a dealer do with unprotected cards sitting out in the table only muck them? I did this myself once when dealing a cash game and guy was extremely angry with me for about an hour. His intention was to limp UTG with J7 and would have flopped trip jacks and still lose

Anyway if you don't protect your cards tough ****e but if its a case where his cards at touching the edge of the table and behind his chips and the dealer reached for them I don't think its fair to declare his hand mucked.

5starpool

There are 'friendly' game rules that allow for discretion and mistakes and there are proper rules. As stated above, proper rules should be applied in this specific case which they were. It's a hard knock life.

DeVore

Btw, I can go one better Marq! I mucked my OWN hand once. I was dealing a SNG in the Fitz and playing in it. I moved in UTG and began collecting the cards from the folds. It got around to TwoShedsJackson from Boards (a very tight player at the time) and he began to ponder. This meant trouble because he was notoriously tight! I looked down at my hand to realise I had mucked ALL of the folded hands on top of it. I covered the whole pile with my hands as if protecting my hole cards and after an age TwoSheds folded. The table burst out laughing as they had all realised what I'd done but hadn't said a word!

DeV.

RoundTower

I would rule the same. Sometimes he isn't even allowed play the board.

Imposter

DeVore wrote:

Its painful to watch some Irish players playing on the international circuit simply because they arent playing with strict rules and are allowed away with murder at home.

You should see how it works here! Dublin is king compared to it.

There was a hand at the 10/20 limit table here a while back when a player in seat 7 left his cards out in front of them after calling a river bet. The dealer mucked them after another player folded and I showed my cards(surprisingly just 3 left in hand at river). He then claimed he had the nuts! Floorman declared his hand dead as he didn't protect them (how hard is that in seat 7!). Dealer then starts looking through the muck (starting with the 2 cards most of us thought they were including the dealer) and one of his called cards wasn't even in the muck! In the end the floorman gave him back his river bet! And you think Irish casinos are ****ed up! How many wrong decisions/actions was that?

califano

I also allowed UTG to play the board.

"Im Fcuked on the board"

-Glengarry Glenross-

Scotty #

Playing a game last night there was a hand that went to showdown with two players. Player A declared a straight. Player B said it "its yours" or words to that effect and threw his cards in. His cards landed face up on the muck and revealed the nut flush. Player B was awarded the pot.

Is this the correct decision?

bohsman

Scotty # wrote:

Playing a game last night there was a hand that went to showdown with two players. Player A declared a straight. Player B said it "its yours" or words to that effect and threw his cards in. His cards landed face up on the muck and revealed the nut flush. Player B was awarded the pot.

Is this the correct decision?

Yes, cards speak.

MadsL

Yes, cards speak.

But for cussedness sake - isn't his hand technically dead as it has touched the muck?