World Cup draw - Irish luck

thebaz

With probably the best Irish team in history, fighting to be ranked in the worlds top 4, and what happens, we get lumped in the Group of death in next years world cup, along with Argentina and France . If we lose either of these matches, we get to play New Zealand in the quarters , basically we have to beat France away, to have any chance of the semis. The luck of the Irish , i think not . Any reason why the draw was so unfavourable to us.

JuliusFranco

last time out we were lumped in with Aus and Arg.
I think it's to do with the fact we were a third seeded team, with Aus being first and Arg being 2nd. (becuase we didn't progress from the group in '99)
This time it's the other way around.
Still it's pretty crap tho

daveirl

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thebaz

daveirl wrote:

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its one thing nearly beating an understrength NZ team with a fully fit Irish team in 2 freindlies. NZ will be a different proposition at the actual world cup, i just can't see Ireland living with them , when NZ will be so hugry to win the cup outright - destiny - hopefully i'm wrong .

Trojan

Destiny... bring it on. So much pressure on a team to win can cause serious problems for them, regardless of their skill level. Take Munster, for example.

RuggieBear

thebaz wrote:

its one thing nearly beating an understrength NZ team with a fully fit Irish team in 2 freindlies. NZ will be a different proposition at the actual world cup, i just can't see Ireland living with them , when NZ will be so hugry to win the cup outright - destiny - hopefully i'm wrong .

NZ are perrenial chokers...

EdgarAllenPoo

Trojan wrote:

Destiny... bring it on. So much pressure on a team to win can cause serious problems for them, regardless of their skill level. Take Munster, for example.

What have Munster done wrong?

Trojan

GDM wrote:

What have Munster done wrong?

Incorrect assumption in the question.

1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, err, 2004 and 2005.

gjim

Incorrect assumption in the question.

1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, err, 2004 and 2005.

This is probably covering old ground, but which of those EC losses were chokes? Losing to Northampton in the final is the only one as far as I'm concerned. This "choke" claim may have value to wind up Munster supporters but it's nonsense. It's like claiming Costa Rica "choked" against Germany. Losing to superior opposition is not choking. Choking is losing when you are strong favourites. Munster are in fact the opposite of chokers - they've over-achieved if anything over the years. Time after time they defied the bookies' odds to progress much further in the competition than was expected.

On the other hand, yes, the ABs have choked on a number of occasions in the world cup.

daveirl

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Diamondmaker

EEEEHHhhhhh???

there is a small matter of Argentina to consider!!
Proving recently to be quite a decent side! At least the Munster boys know how to spook their out half !!;)

Right them off at our peril!

Bounty Hunter

gjim wrote:

This "choke" claim may have value to wind up Munster supporters but it's nonsense. It's like claiming Costa Rica "choked" against Germany. Losing to superior opposition is not choking.

Your obviously not a Munster fan cos no munster fan would equate any of those Munster teams to Costa Rica, Munster could have won every one of the matches that they didnt and argueable should have though they often just did not get any luck on the day.

but as far as Irelands group is concerned hopefully without sounding like George W Bush i agree with Trojan BRING IT ON!, yes we arguably have the best Irish team for years and beating France in France would prove that. Also it would be in my opinion easier than beating NZ's first 15 anywhere at the moment.

Trojan

Sorry for dragging it a bit off-topic, but talking about pressure, destiny and expectation to win is close to the original.

My point stands, that Munster built up tremendous pressure after so many close calls in the HC that in the last few (say post 2001 or 2002) they have had "destiny" and all of that other rubbish in the press every time they take to the field in HC. I don't think that helped them.

I think that this year they won in spite of the expectation, not because of it. RWC and New Zealand is a similar situation.

thebaz

i think if Ireland have no major injury worries they can challenge and beat NZ , but we (Ireland) have been lucky with injuries this year . What happens if O'Connell, O'Driscoll , O'Gara get injured -- NZ have cover in every single position - the reality is we don't --- This is the strongest NZ squad i have seen since '95 , when lets be honest they were really unlucky not to win WC that year - perhaps there was bit of destiny for SA that year -- but in reality NZ were by far the best team in the competition in '95, and choked a bit in the final , along with some stomach bug problem .

Sundy

Diamondmaker wrote:

EEEEHHhhhhh???

there is a small matter of Argentina to consider!!
Proving recently to be quite a decent side! At least the Munster boys know how to spook their out half !!;)

Right them off at our peril!

Maybe so but their first centre felipe contemponi will destroy us..

Diamondmaker

Sundy wrote:

Maybe so but their first centre felipe contemponi will destroy us..

Thats who I was referrign to when I meant out half, the Munster pack sure know how to get on his tits and frustrate him as shown at the RDS and to greater effect the HCSF. He was not a happy bunny after the aforementioned win or loss!


Does he play 12 for Arg then?

Crash

However if you watched the leinster match after the munster one in the CL, felipe was amazing. If he can strengthen that temper control of his, its terrifying the little things he can pull off. he can be a worry.

gjim

Munster could have won every one of the matches that they didnt and argueable should have though they often just did not get any luck on the day.

This is what i disagree with. It had nothing to do with expectation or luck. If you look at the odds offered by the bookies before each of those matches, Munster were underdogs in every case. Losing when everyone including befair expects you to lose is not "choking". There is no shame in being beaten by superior opposition as long as you put up a good fight.

toomevara

This is definitely an interesting debate and one I reckon we're going to be rehashing alot over the coming months as the buildup begins.
Re: the all blacks, I don't think we need fear them as Irish teams have done in the past, but what we must do is grant them huge respect. This particular NZ outfit, both coaches and players, is, I think, unprecendented in the history of the WC and indeed world rugby.

They have a strength, depth and organisational nous which is breathtaking (and dont even get me started on their skill levels) and which no other rugby playing nation can hope to emulate. As to the reasons for this, i.e. their shameful cherry picking from the surrounding pacific isalnds i.e. tonga, samoa and fiji, all of whom will never be the force they should be as a result, and the fact that there is effectively no other sport in in NZ, well these have been well debated, but we are where we are.

Look at the team they've just announced to play Argentina in the upcoming test, a completely different 22, from last weekend, I mean just think about that for a minute, completely different, its fantasy stuff and looking at that team I would forecast nothing other than a win. But they can be beaten by a professional well coached, coherent and focused outfit, which takes it's chances and keeps control of the ball, and that just about summarises ireland now, does it not?

As for Argentina, well they're Ireland's great bogey team largely because in many respects there our mirror image. Huge pack, great power game, excellent set piece and dogged to the last. Re: Contemponi he'll be a different player behind a pack like Argentina which will give him the armchair ride he needs to shine. There'll be no Leinster-like capitulation form his forwards...but hey we've got to be upbeat and go for it. My only caution when we play them....remember Lens and never give a sucker an even break......and we should be fine.....wont we?.......

thebaz

My point is the draw stinks, France away and Argentina , in our group. If we qualify we get to meet the favorites New Zealand , unless we win group, which is unlikely. I believe this is the best Irish team ever, certainly i can remember, and a first ever semi final , should have been achievable with a reasonable draw , and a final spot with a favourabvle draw and a bit of luck . I don't think Ireland are strong eneogh to win the whole thing, we lack the strenth in depth of say NZ , to go through a tournament unbeaten . Just unfortunate that the draw was so unkind, in this golden age of Irish rugby.

toomevara

No doubt the draw is far from ideal and so much for us depends on the hosts and their performances in the group stage. Thought France were very lacklustre in the 6N and I'm not sure if Laporte is going the right way with them. As a team they somehow always seem to contrive to be worse than the sum of their parts would suggest. An implosion of the type their football team is currently undergoing would be too much to hope for but you never know with france. Of course they could also play like Gods and beat all about them, its the great paradox of french rugby I suppose and they'll definitely be feeling the pressure of expectation from their massively unforgiving public.

Reckon England and Wales won't be too happy about their groups either with the possible banana skins of Fiji and Samoa in the wings. Re: best Irish team ever, absolutely must agree, especially in respect of current 1st XV, though do worry about our complete lack of depth. Nightmare scenarios of injuries to O'Gara/Stringer..O'Driscoll/D'arcy and suddenly things begin to look grim. Will never forget the Autumn internationals where we looked utterly rudderless and hopelessly inept. Winning a WC all about the squad and I think we're maybe three or four class players short of having a 22 to challenge the best.

Bounty Hunter

This thread began with the words

thebaz wrote:

With probably the best Irish team in history, fighting to be ranked in the worlds top 4, and what happens, we get lumped in the Group of death in next years world cup, along with Argentina and France.

and if anyone agree's that this is even arguably one of the best teams in Irish history than we surely should not fear either France or Argentina.

and getting slightly off point i know and apologise for but, the below was an extract from an earlier post of mine in which i never suggested Munster chocked...as a munster fan that would be strange for me but my point still stands that comparing Munster(the champions of europe) to Costa Rica is just silly even if the bookies didnt think they would win the Heiniken cup in the early years

gjim wrote:

Quote:
Munster could have won every one of the matches that they didnt and argueable should have though they often just did not get any luck on the day.


This is what i disagree with. It had nothing to do with expectation or luck. If you look at the odds offered by the bookies before each of those matches, Munster were underdogs in every case. Losing when everyone including befair expects you to lose is not "choking". There is no shame in being beaten by superior opposition as long as you put up a good fight..

gjim

as a munster fan that would be strange for me but my point still stands that comparing Munster(the champions of europe) to Costa Rica is just silly

It would be silly if I had compared Munster to Costa Rica. I did no such thing. I used them and Germany as an example of where losing is not choking - an idea that I mistakingly thought was obvious.

thebaz

Bounty Hunter wrote:

This thread began with the words

and if anyone agree's that this is even arguably one of the best teams in Irish history than we surely should not fear either France or Argentina.

France at home , are capable of beating any team in the world if they turn it on - the question of course is "if" .. one of the greatest performances from any rugby team i ever saw was when France beat the All Blacks who were red hot favorites, in a world cup semi in 1999 , i think . There performance that day was amazing, and nearly every French team I have seen has this built-in ability of just turning on dazzling rugby , on certain occassions, that no one can live with, and that includes the current Irish team , at full strength.

toomevara

That '99 game's second half was unquestionably the most astonishing 40 minutes of international rugby I've ever seen. If that version of France turn up god help us all...........

rubberduckey

Irelands Chances:

Tough group, we have the possibility of Argentina beating France(again) just to complicate matters.

as for the potential New Zealand game in the knockout round, I think people are over-hyping what exactly New zealand have achieved in the past few years.

For instance I don't think they are as good a side as the English team that took us apart in spring 2003.(it hurts me to say that).

In WC 2007, there will be two teams under extreme pressure, and we know from history that neither are very successful when under this much weight of expectation.

France the hosts and New Zealand.

RuggieBear

thebaz wrote:

France at home , are capable of beating any team in the world if they turn it on - the question of course is "if" .. one of the greatest performances from any rugby team i ever saw was when France beat the All Blacks who were red hot favorites, in a world cup semi in 1999 , i think . There performance that day was amazing, and nearly every French team I have seen has this built-in ability of just turning on dazzling rugby , on certain occassions, that no one can live with, and that includes the current Irish team , at full strength.

that semi final was in twickenham was it not?

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

thebaz wrote:

My point is the draw stinks, France away and Argentina , in our group. If we qualify we get to meet the favorites New Zealand , unless we win group, which is unlikely. I believe this is the best Irish team ever, certainly i can remember, and a first ever semi final , should have been achievable with a reasonable draw , and a final spot with a favourabvle draw and a bit of luck . I don't think Ireland are strong eneogh to win the whole thing, we lack the strenth in depth of say NZ , to go through a tournament unbeaten . Just unfortunate that the draw was so unkind, in this golden age of Irish rugby.

If an irish fan feels this draw stinks i would hate to see a Argentina fans' reaction. I wouldnt be confident of us beating france, austrailia, NZ or south africa so i dont think this draw is that bad.

Also, Irish fans call new zeland chokers, hehe!

No one remeber the last world cup? We werent favours but alot of people thought we had a great chance to beat France, what happened? We got hockeyed. Or the world cup in 1999. Lost to Argentina, went for a 15 man drive 5 metres from the line to try and win it :rolleyes:

Against Wales in the Six nations last year we bottled it aswell. Even the last 2 tests when we had good chances to win, especially with the lead we had we lost it.

rubberduckey

HHmmmmm, we didn't choke in Twickenham with 4 minutes to go and the Triple Crown on the line, did we???

Anyway we have the draw we have, lets get on with it...

Anyone see Heaslip in the Churchill Cup?? I thought he was the business.
like to see him in an Irish backrow soon, so he's an option for World Cup.

Chucky the tree

rubberduckey wrote:

HHmmmmm, we didn't choke in Twickenham with 4 minutes to go and the Triple Crown on the line, did we???

Excactly, so we will need another 3 dodgy decisions to go in are favour to win.


Didnt see New zeland choking when playing the Lions?

rubberduckey

Sorry Chucky don't mean to rude but just to point out.

(A) Twickenham was our third victory in a row against England(2 away from home), all close games that Ireland pulled through in.

(B) NZ have garnered a reputation for flakiness under pressure in the recent past, 3 WC semis etc...

See below::
Wallabies fans and plenty of New Zealanders will disagree but All Blacks coach John Mitchell vehemently denies his team choked in last night's World Cup semi-final loss to Australia.

"We didn't choke at all - we just got beaten by a better team," Mitchell said after his side lost 22-10.

"We're not chokers mate, that's just a buzz word that goes around."

But it's a word that'll be buzzing around for the rest of the week after New Zealand lost its third RWC semi-final in the past four cups - interrupting those penultimate hurdle falls with a loss in the final to South Africa in 1995.



But back to the main point of this thread, we have a tough draw, but we need to back ourselves a bit more.

Cheers,

Crash

Chucky the tree wrote:

Or the world cup in 1999. Lost to Argentina, went for a 15 man drive 5 metres from the line to try and win it :rolleyes:

pplease, dont mention that. that was the year I truly got into rugby and walked home from the pub five minutes before the end of the match cus I couldn't hack it

daveirl

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toomevara

On one level, don't think its possible to overstate the effect of the Lens debacle on Irish rugby, but I think paradoxically it was actually largely a positive and galvanising one. It really was a "JFK" moment for many fans i.e. everyone remembers exactly where he/she was when that final whistle went (me, depressed and forlorn in a pub in Camberwell, London)

It definitely marked the end of the quasi professional approach to international rugby, you know the galant loser "ah sure give it a lash" nonsense which seemed to be enough for alot of irish rugby supporters and indeed, if the truth be told, quite a few of the players. The debate on the fifteen man lineout/linedrive is, as you rightly point out, a red herring, we were beaten on the day by a team which wanted it more and exploited an underprepared and under motivated Irish team. Justice was definitely done on the field that day....

Chucky the tree

rubberduckey wrote:

Sorry Chucky don't mean to rude but just to point out.

(A) Twickenham was our third victory in a row against England(2 away from home), all close games that Ireland pulled through in.

no bother, didnt take it as being rude. Against a weak English team it has to be said. With nothign major on the line( a triple crown isnt important). Look at the wales match, when the pressure was really on. It went tits up.

rubberduckey wrote:

(B) NZ have garnered a reputation for flakiness under pressure in the recent past, 3 WC semis etc...

See below::
Wallabies fans and plenty of New Zealanders will disagree but All Blacks coach John Mitchell vehemently denies his team choked in last night's World Cup semi-final loss to Australia.

"We didn't choke at all - we just got beaten by a better team," Mitchell said after his side lost 22-10.

"We're not chokers mate, that's just a buzz word that goes around."

But it's a word that'll be buzzing around for the rest of the week after New Zealand lost its third RWC semi-final in the past four cups - interrupting those penultimate hurdle falls with a loss in the final to South Africa in 1995.

But back to the main point of this thread, we have a tough draw, but we need to back ourselves a bit more.

Cheers,

I agree with what he said about them being jokers being a buzz word. People couldnt think of anything else to knock them about so we called them chokers.

Surely the New zeland team would of choked against england in the semi's in 95(or was that the 1/4, cant remeber)? THey lost to an amzing performance from France in the semi's last time. No team would of had a chance against france in the second half.

I didnt see the last semi against austrailia in 2003 so cant comment. But again, a NZ vs Austrailia is always going to be close and can go either way.

Look at the last 3 Ireland matches against england. England have been favours in all 3 but lost, would you say they choked? i just think they lost to a better team on the day.

New Zeland have beaten the lions and won very important tri-nations matches. Not the sign of chokers.

I am also probaly being a bit harsh on Ireland suggesting there chokers. But even today when they got the lead they threw it away.

Anyway, as you say, back to the draw. If we got rid of EOS then the draw wouldnt be too bad.