New high-speed Dublin-Belfast train planned

Navan Junction

from ireland.com, 19.06.2006

Plans for a high speed rail service that would cut the journey time between Dublin and Belfast to 90 minutes are being drawn up on both sides of the Border.

Keith Moffatt, chief executive of Northern Ireland's transport company, Translink, said it was working with Iarnrod Éireann on an outline "vision 2020" that would provide a non-stop 90-minute service departing at hourly intervals.

The cost of such a service, using 125mph trains and requiring an upgrade of the track, would be around €733 million, he said.

Journey times could be cut to 60 minutes with the use of 140mph tilting trains, Mr Moffatt added, but he expressed doubt that the €2 billion cost would be acceptable to politicians.

Unveiling Translink's vision for the future, he said Northern Ireland Railways and Iarnrod Éireann were working on a scheme to improve the main cross-Border service and that a preliminary report delivered recently confirmed that a high-speed, high-frequency service could be economically viable.

But he said it was all down to a question of money and how much the politicians would provide.

PA

© The Irish Times/ireland.com

John R

A speed increase from Malahide to Lisburn would be relatively simple but there is not enough line capacity to allow any sort of fast running through the suburban networks, particularly in Dublin. It would cut too much of a gap into the schedules.

125mph could be done cheaply be refurbishing the IE Mk3 coaches and buying twin power cars to run with them. The power cars could be bought in a lot with identical units for Dublin-Cork.

Chris_533976

STRIKE

jjbrien

nice proposition will it be electic or diesl?

Diaspora

The track simply isn't up to throwing Mark 3's onto this route it needs a complete rebuild I read something on platform 11 about kilo per metre spec that would be required.

When was the last time Belfast Dublin was properly relaid?

As for Pendolino it wouldn't be worth €2bn for this route even in a four track set up as far as Drogheda

road_high

They should upgrade the Cork-Dublin first- look after your own as they say. The unionists in the north see how well the republic is doing and now want a slice of the action- they'll have to wait.

John R

Mk3s are considerably lighter than the DD coaches currently in use on the enterprise, they would put less load on the track. The main track issue is the locomotives though, the high axle weight combined with high speed running is the main stressor for the track. What the track isn't up to is 125mph running of any stock.

It is much newer track than Dublin-Cork, most of it would be in the 10-15 year old bracket AFAIR.

Transport21 Fan

Pardon me, but did I just step into a Tardis and go back to 1996 when this first announced?

If the urban legends surrounding how the original 1996 Dublin-Belfast high-speed services was completely cocked-up by the victorian-cultured torque gauge monkey managment at Inchicore is half true, then why are these people still working in railways in this country?

Only CIE could come up with the idea of putting a re-geared American freight loco on the end of TGV-type coaches and spend the next 10 years watching it going on fire in rural Louth and still call it "state of the art" on their website. How much revenue has been lost by the Enterprise due constant breakdowns and lost revenue. In the private sector any engineering manager who made a decision which led to this would never work again.

I am all for this idea (as I was in 1996) but god help us when some "visionary" at Inchicore decides that "well we have some locomotives going to waste and here is an idea" once again...

Transport21 Fan

Chris_533976 wrote:

STRIKE

Post of the month.

and while Deco and Anto are looking through SUV catalogs upon hearing this news as we speak, Inchicore management are trying to fit tilting bogies to a Craven rake and the remianing 071's. "Hello...is this the paint shop...do you have any spare green, while and blue paint?...and also, is Craig Doyle still pissing himself laughing?

Them hanging baskets at Dundalk will get clobbered by the Pendocravens as they tilt.

Thank christ for the RPA.

SeanW

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Them hanging baskets at Dundalk will get clobbered by the Pendocravens as they tilt.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Diaspora

Hmmm the RPA the proven delivery company

The only thing the RPA ever got to tilt was a basement in Harcourt St

Slice

diaspora:When was the last time Belfast Dublin was properly relaid?

Didn't Dublin-Belfast see significant improvements when the (relatively) new Enterprise service was introduced?

I don't think getting rid of all the intermediate stops should be considered given the fact that Dundalk and Newry are poorly served by commuter services compared to Drogheda and Portadown.

Definately with Enterprise I reckon an effort should be made to reduce the use of the service by regular commuters when it's actually an Intercity service.

dowlingm

As has been pointed out numerous times before, the Enterprise service suffers from under capacity, "solved" by sticking on a carriage that's supposed to be spare and thus increasing the load on HEP beyond what was anticipated. The answer, as again has been pointed out numerous times, is to add extra services to the line, preferably in the form of Mark 3s, reduce the length of Enterprise and stick on a DVT. However, this would definitely require NIR's okay (and cash - mfitzy please note) and probably rewiring more Mk3 for push pull (and probably an interior refit too) as well as dedicating more 201s to the route and ensuring sufficient track slots/platforms.

If the track is improved, that will improve timings but what would really improve things is
a) fewer breakdowns
b) less headway between services - after all, if a train goes well after you are ready to go you've already lost time.

The only problem is getting enough Mk3 - will there be any to use until the regional railcars come?

Transport21 Fan

dowlingm wrote:

As has been pointed out numerous times before, the Enterprise service suffers from under capacity, "solved" by sticking on a carriage that's supposed to be spare and thus increasing the load on HEP beyond what was anticipated.

Sure that's true, and the most basic, fundemental, root of the problem reason for this remains there is no way an American freight locomotive, designed for pulling 100 boxcar trains at 10 miles per hour across Idaho, re-geared and hooked up to TVG-type coaches can be considered (even in the mid 90's) a modern European rail solution, let alone "state of the art" as it still states on the CIE website. It's a 1950's mentality of Frankenstein railway engineering at its worst.

If the Enterprise was a proper train to begin with, there would be no issue with extra coach solution - this is a result of bad engineering sowing the seeds of constant problems. The origin of this situation remains a classic CIE half-assed solution. There was EU money and plenty of options availible to CIE and NIR back in the mid-90's.

What happened with the Enterprise and Inchicore would be akin to the RPA getting some of the old DUT and Hill of Howth trams still around and using them as power cars for some new Alstrom trailers and calling it "state of the art" light rail as in "sure we had a few trams, no point in them going to waste". (OK well that's a stretch, but the basic rationale was the same)

There were plenty of DMUs on the market in 1996 which CIE could have ordered which is what NIR wanted to do at the time. There were even stories of NIR getting HSTs and regauging them as well. Just about anything would have been more reliable that the Inchicore wet dream Frankenprise which we ended up with.

NIR seems to get it right when IE get it wrong when it comes to new rolling stock. For example, the new NIR railcars and the 2900 appear to be the same. I have been on both the NIR one is vastly superior in terms of ride quality and does not bounce and jump all over the place like the 2900 does. If you look at them from the side there look almost identical in every way, they were made by the same CAF builders in Spain, and from what I believe are almost technically identically the same. Now I doubt if the lovely silver paint job on the NIR railcars is the reason for the better ride, but they do have a smooth rounded front, while the 2900 is a box. Could it be simply down to the aerodynamics of the 2900 is what causes it to shake, rattle and roll? If so, did NIR engineers know this and asked for a rounded end?

We here a lot about CIE rail unions and the damage the cause with the public perception of the rail network, but I wonder if there are serious questions to be asked about the competence of the engineering managers at Inchicore when it comes to their understanding of modern rolling stock and rail solutions.

There has a long history of questionable procurement as is their obsession with scrapping the Mk3s. Something is just not right within the granite walls of Inchicore works in many ways and I suspect it's rooted in a victorian mindset and paralysing institutionlised mindset at the management level.

murphaph

NIR odered their C3Ks with a suspension damper (a shock absorber essentially!) that CIE ones don't have :rolleyes:

craigybagel

Emmm aint the Belfast line a bit bendy?!

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

NIR odered their C3Ks with a suspension damper (a shock absorber essentially!) that CIE ones don't have :rolleyes:

Christ, that's even more pathetic than I suspected. The difference between the C3ks and 2900's from a passenger point if view is startling (not to mentioned the asthetic superiority of the C3Ks both inside and out.

The only way we'll ever get "state-of-the-art" Inter-City rail service between major urban centres on this island (that's Belfast, Cork and Dublin and not Ballina if anybody is wondering) is to one-day wake up to the fact that throwing billions at traditional CIE hodge-podgism is never going to work and commit to building new lines.

and for christsake don't let the muppets at Inchicore and North Wall have anything to do with it!

Red Alert

Stick on a Cravens or Mark 2 Heating Van on to the De Deitrichs and we'll have a half-assed solution that works better than the quarter-assed solution we currently have. At least the misused 201's won't go on fire (an admirable achievement in the 21st century for any piece of technology).

What's more amazing about CIE and its 'engineers', 'experts' and 'management' is that they're even less likely to go for a good no-cost solution staring them in the face than one which involves many dinners and trips over to a train/tin-can factory in spain.

dowlingm

What's the top speed of a Mk2 or a Craven? I thought they were both limited to 75mph?

T21fan - What would you have IE & Translink do about the 201s? The Eurostar trains are electric so you're talking about electrification of Dublin-Belfast and procurement of something like Eurostar/BR C373 power cars - not cheap. The 201s are probably not ideal, they were a compromise after all, but in non-Enterprise service they seem to do fine.

Of course if the money was there you could electrify Belfast-Dublin-interconnector-Cork...

Transport21 Fan

dowlingm wrote:

T21fan - What would you have IE & Translink do about the 201s?

Sell them off. Loads of freight companies in the UK and Europe would buy them and regauge them.

I never understood why CIE engineering management at Inchicore bought 201's in the first place. They are too large and heavy for hundreds upon hundreds of miles on rail line in this country. Does that make any sense?

Now bear in mind that CIE engineering management at Inchicore ordered the 201s in the knowledge that they would be the last locos for decades and would be their only locos after 2012. The 201s cannot even cross the Shannon Bridge to get to Sligo. Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit odd? Ordering a massive locomotive which only partially serves the rail network. There must have been other options.

CIE engineering management at Inchicore already had the 201s before they ordered the Enterprise coaches and just like when it came to the new half pointy coaches on the Cork route it was a case of "sure have locos, we have no freight left, sure let's do what we always do and make up trains..." This is a Scrapheap Challange approach to developing eh "state of the art" rail solutions and belongs more on the Discovery channel than in developing modern rail transport products. This kind of approach belongs in the 1950's, not in the 21st century were bespoke rail products are a proven strategy.

One thing I never understood....How come small narrow gauge and unique railways with their own loading gauges and individualised technical specs from Majorca to Switzerland can manage to source, purchase and put into service one-of-kind very, high quality rail passenger equiptment and CIE engineering management at Inchicore can't?

How come the excuses of "small specialised rolling stock orders" and "limited suppliers" does not seem to affect railways like the Rhb or the Basque meter gauge network? They don't seem to fall back on the excuse of "we're too specialised and too small a railway" - they seem to have no problem getting small runs of high quality rolling stock. But IE can't...what's up with that?

I really do think that CIE engineering management at Inchicore have no further say in ordering rolling stock and a consultancy firm take over tenders and procurment. A CIE engineering management at Inchicore in-house, institutionalised, product of Victorian railways tradition and values among the management should not be involved in ordering 21st century rail products.

dowlingm wrote:

The Eurostar trains are electric so you're talking about electrification of Dublin-Belfast and procurement of something like Eurostar/BR C373 power cars - not cheap. The 201s are probably not ideal, they were a compromise after all, but in non-Enterprise service they seem to do fine.

Except they are too heavy for hundreds of miles of rail line. Grand loco that they are. NIR wanted to purchases second hand HSTs from the UK and refurbish them. This would have been perfect. and again, how come tiny and unique railways (often private companies) in the Swiss alps and Basque country can get their hands on fantastic custom-built passenger trains from major rolling stock suppliers and IE can't?

dowlingm wrote:

Of course if the money was there you could electrify Belfast-Dublin-interconnector-Cork...

Don't be silly, half a billion is already being put aside to rebuild Ennis to Coolooney. This money can't be wasted on the upgrading the line between the two largest cities on the island. You obviously hate the people of Mayo and want them to suffer - I honestly don't know how you sleep at night after making an outragous suggestion like that...

MarkoP11

The number one cause of delay on enterprise service is parking brake sensor failures not the locomotives.

The parking brake sensor is a right pain since it will either apply the brakes in error or fail to notice if they don't release, so you can stop for no reason and not be able to get moving again for ages or drag a coach with locked brakes for miles.

Since Irish Rail took over responsibility for all the locomotives failures reduced significantly (about 300-400% reduction) once the professionals in Dublin took over maintenance. For a 3200 hp 100 mph locomotive the 201 is quite light at 118 tons

Problem is during refurbishment a second brake disk was added to each axle, that means twice as many sensors, combine that with NIR having no money and you get a free for all since they are responsible for the coaches

The MK2d generator van would require a rewire (110 vs 24v DC control circuits) need air brakes (NIR and IE have the parts), Irish Rail have looked into it

BTW Yaw dampers are never fitted to a coach operating below 75 mph not needed, its the secondary suspension on the 29K thats crap a damper would make little difference at low speed as the effect it tries to prevent only occurs at high speed, neither the enterprise nor MK3 coaches carry such a suspension component anyway

bryanw

I think electrification would be the best way to go. It would be a very sensible thing to do at this time, now that we have the money to do it. What happens if we don't have the money at some point down the line. We'll be left with a mid-20th Century system in the mid 21st Century!

In almost no other country in the EU do you travel on major intercity routes on diesel trains... then look at Ireland. The only electrified railway we have is the DART. There are a whole load of possibilities if just say Dublin - Belfast and Dublin - Cork were electrified. Then maybe we could start making some more progress with better services. You could even start talking about electrifying the line to Galway/Limerick (if we have enough money :eek: ). No more dirty, old diesel locos going on fire and we could even do the high-speed solution between Belfast - Dublin - Cork. Our own TGV .... ahhh .... wouldn't that be nice (we could call it Traen Ard-Luais [TAL] - don't know if the name would go down so well up north)!

I mean we continuously hear about how well Ireland is performing, but we'll be back in the 80's if we have no proper transport to fall back on. Obviously Transport21 can achieve that, but a few high-spec additions could be made.

Just a question also, while speaking of electrifying the lines, would it be possible to use the current Enterprise carriges and attach them to an electric locomotive?

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11 wrote:

once the professionals in Dublin took over

But "professionals" compared to what benchmark? There are no other major engineering railway on this island other than Inchicore. It's easy to be the top banana when you are the only banana.

MarkoP11 wrote:

For a 3200 hp 100 mph locomotive the 201 is quite light at 118 tons

Even so, the fact remains that the 201s are still too large and heavy for hundreds of miles of IE railways and the professionals and their quite light locomotive is a primary reason why the Sligo line has 2900s and the Mrk3 are being scrapped.

MarkoP11 wrote:

BTW Yaw dampers are never fitted to a coach operating below 75 mph not needed, its the secondary suspension on the 29K thats crap a damper would make little difference at low speed as the effect it tries to prevent only occurs at high speed, neither the enterprise nor MK3 coaches carry such a suspension component anyway

How come Inchicore missed this while the NIR engineers called it correctly. Was this option not available to IE at the time of purchase?

The C3Ks are so superior to the 2900s from a passenger aspect that you would be forgiven for assuming that they were built by a different company. Unless it was a case of these secondary suspension on the 29Ks were not an option at the time of order, then some serious questions have to be asked about management ability at Inchicore.

The C3Ks would be fine for Inter-City working on the Sligo and Rosslare lines. NIR engineering managers got it right, IE engineering management were incredibly short-sighted it would appear, and it once again highlights what I have always said. The management in IE make no correlation between the actual kit, and the services from a customer point of view.

Sure it's a train, it'll do...

popebenny16

This article is as predictable and threadbare as "earth in orbit around sun - study shows" which I expect the Irish Indo to run with soon. It's a lovely idea, the problem is that its not going to happen. Yeah yeah yeah, if we done scream for it it wont happen, dont be so defeatist, whay are we here anyway? We're here cos we're all internet crackpots with nothing better to do. Has anyone got any crayons?

Diaspora

The stated €750m cost would cost both transport companies €187.5m between them as the remainder would be made up by the EU.

Given the state of the current kit according to Transport 21 fan it needs to be done and fast. The enterprise is the most unreliable train service I have ever used and its low usage between Dundalk and Newry/Portadown is probably a direct result of that.

I say spend the €187.5 the worst effect is that extra capacity is added between Dublin & Drogheda/Dundalk and Belfast Portadown. It may also lead to closer ties between counties Louth and Armagh

dowlingm

T21fan - good points well made, although I would disagree on one point - the solution to Shannonbridge is not to stop using 201s but to fix a bridge which seems to be in desperate order. Isn't there a really slow speed restriction on that even for non 201 services? Maybe I'm thinking of somewhere else but that's my recollection.

craigybagel

Think its time for me to play devils advocate again here. As has already been said the problem with the current Enterprise service isnt the locos the 201s are in general reliable locomotives that do a good job and get people round the country at a decent speed. Obviously itd be nice to have something faster going up and down the island and im sure someday soon we will but inthe meantime the 201sll have to do and thats not really all that bad a thing! Its going to take a while to make the Belfast line fit for high speeds given the hilly and bendy nature of the line between Dundalk and Portadown, and the congestion with suburban services close in to Dublin and Belfast.
As for the electrification thatd be almost as big a waste as the WRC! Doing all 260 miles from Cork to Belfast as has been suggested at a huge expense and for what? Slightly cleaner trains?
Id love to see a network of high speed electric trains criss crossing the island i think it would be a brilliant thing to see. But lets be realistic here theres only so much money to be spent and itd be crazy to invest in things like that given the state of the non intercity network, Dublin commuter services in particular.

Diaspora

No one is talking electrification here as high-speed trains to 140mph would only exceed max speed diesel trains by 15 mph. It is clear that both Dublin Belfast and Cork Dublin will need to be relaid over the coming years whatever happens.

What this proposal would do is ensure that the track laid could accomodate the fastest diesel trains available and that 90 minutes Dublin Belfast (Dundalk 45 minutes) and 2 hours Dublin Cork could be delivered. It would also replace the existing trains which are dreadful and will probably need to be replaced quite soon anyway. If a job is worth doing it is worth future proofing

philologos

mfitzy wrote:

They should upgrade the Cork-Dublin first- look after your own as they say. The unionists in the north see how well the republic is doing and now want a slice of the action- they'll have to wait.

Like it or not Belfast is Ireland's second biggest city, regardless of the political situation. If or even when we get Ulster fully back in our hands wouldn't it be better on the economy if NI's infastructure was up to scratch too?

MarkoP11

Jakkass wrote:

Like it or not Belfast is Ireland's second biggest city, regardless of the political situation. If or even when we get Ulster fully back in our hands wouldn't it be better on the economy if NI's infastructure was up to scratch too?

Given Dublin Cork is quoted at 4 million pa and Dublin Belfast isn't even in the top five routes in the country (500k a year at most) its a reasonable wish to invest where there is proven demand plus Dublin Cork is far more suitable for 125mph+ speeds i.e. cheaper to upgrade

The fundamental problem is irrespective of how much money in capital investment is made the operating budget of NIR is not sufficient to maintain even the existing service that needs to be fixed first. I'm convinced if the coaches were maintained properly we wouldn't be seeing half the problems we are, after all trains in the Republic are anything from 2 to 5 times more reliable than very similar kit in the North the only difference is Belfast (London?) couldn't give a damn. Things could get dramatically better if NIR was funded at a resonable level

The only justification to invest hundreds of millions would be on the basis of a DART style service in Belfast being put in place leaving a gap in the middle to fill in, electrification only pays where you have high frequency services. Unlike Dublin Cork electrification Dublin Belfast is feasible in light of heavy commuter services at both ends, this was looked at in the mid 1990's and there is some class of agreement that if Belfast goes electric the gap will be closed

craigybagel

Diaspora wrote:

No one is talking electrification here as high-speed trains to 140mph would only exceed max speed diesel trains by 15 mph. It is clear that both Dublin Belfast and Cork Dublin will need to be relaid over the coming years whatever happens.

What this proposal would do is ensure that the track laid could accomodate the fastest diesel trains available and that 90 minutes Dublin Belfast (Dundalk 45 minutes) and 2 hours Dublin Cork could be delivered. It would also replace the existing trains which are dreadful and will probably need to be replaced quite soon anyway. If a job is worth doing it is worth future proofing

I know the cork lines due for renewal and there is talk of looking at 125mph on it which is fair enough but its not so long since the Belfast line was renewed and noones answered the issue of all those nice bends just over the border. As for the trains corks getting its brand new stock and the Locos on that and the Belfast lines are only 12 years old, and the enterprise coaches only 10 years old thats not old at all! Like i said maybe we should be fixing other simpler stuff before we worry about big money projects like that.

sameoldname

I'm just wondering, in the off chance that we do eventually get 125mph trains on the Dublin-Belfast line would there not be such a bottleneck approaching Dublin that they would think about adding another or possibly 2 new tracks where Intercity and Commuter traffic meets DART traffic?

Diaspora

It is hard to argue with what your rationale on this save to say that Dublin Dundalk -Border on its next upgrade should be done to a level that can accomodate tilting trains. The cost difference is minimal and if there are a number of bends between Dundalk and Newry then cost benefit analysis should be done on an individual basis to establish on a case by case basis if the remidial works can be justified.

Some of the stretches of the West Coast line in Lancashire and Cumbria in the UK have some similar bends and speeds of upto 80-90mph can be acheived.

But as you say there are many many simple projects that would take precedence such as individual track repairs on sections of this route and as we are at the start of a ten year minimum cycle of projects higher up the list maybe it should be tacked on for a 10-15 year cycle. It does however compare very favourably to the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry and the current kit has very little time left in it whatever happens.

dowlingm

well, looking in Google Earth the topography from Dundalk-Newry looks very tricky.

However, if the timings Belfast-Dublin are the concern they could always just build 40 km of track from Lisburn to Newry...

Put the Enterprise on that line and retain Portadown's connecting service to Newry & Lisburn. Not only would it be shorter by about 10-15km you also save on eliminating a stop. A Lisburn-Dromore-Banbridge-Newry stopper could run on the line in between Enterprise slots.

I'll get me coat... :rolleyes:

John R

dowlingm wrote:

well, looking in Google Earth the topography from Dundalk-Newry looks very tricky.

However, if the timings Belfast-Dublin are the concern they could always just build 40 km of track from Lisburn to Newry...

Put the Enterprise on that line and retain Portadown's connecting service to Newry & Lisburn. Not only would it be shorter by about 10-15km you also save on eliminating a stop. A Lisburn-Dromore-Banbridge-Newry stopper could run on the line in between Enterprise slots.

I'll get me coat... :rolleyes:

There was a line roughly following that route at one time, from the map it looks like it was only a branch line link from Scarva to Banbridge connecting in with the Lisburn-Banbridge-Newcastle line, Portadown was always the direct main line.

Besides, with the state of rail funding in NI there is no chance of any new builds. If there were any planned Portadown-Armagh would be first on the list.

Line closures have been much likely to happen than new builds. Larne-Whitehead and particularly Derry-Coleraine have been very close to being dropped as recently as last year and don't forget Antrim-Lisburn was closed in 2004.

Maskhadov

the trainstation in belfast is a joke. Anyone coming into that would think they were in stopping at a village.

This is just in line with the Cork Dublin upgrade so i dont know where all the hype is there for.