The Problem with Gay Primary School Children

fly_agaric

Row over minder scheme for gay pupils

So can primary school age children really know for certain that they are gay and need support, or the full implications of calling someone "gay" as an insult and need education beyond the fact that they should not insult or bully people?

Or is this yet another effort by a pathologically sex-obsessed society to ram its fixations down the throats of its children?

It is all very, very strange!

Zombrex

Well there seem to be a few things proposed here.

On the buddy for gay pupils. In my view all bullying should be tackled (which is a very hard thing to do), and I think the "buddy" system is a good idea.. But singling out a certain groups of children and given them buddies seems a bit silly. Does a kid that is being bullied because he wears Dune Stores trainers (yes that was me) need less help and protection than a gay student?

I don't see any problem with including homosexuality in normal primary school sex education classes. Though I imagine a lot of people would, the argument being they don't want to uncourage or promote sinful/abnormal/devient sexual behaviour. So I guess it depends if you view homosexuality as ok or wrong.

InFront

These young people are clearly identifying their sexual orientation at a young age,” the report concludes.

It was an internet survery of 12 year olds! So just because 2 pupils seem to have described themselves as 'gay', it has claimed:

"children are aware of their sexuality at a younger age than was previously thought."

This is a complete over reaction. Now even if 12 year olds can have a sexual orientation, (and I believe that some may believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are gay), why on earth would someone feel the need to give them some sort of in-school support? Im sorry if it appears old fashioned but my solution to these children would be to throw them out in the yard with everyone else and give them a ball or a Harry Potter book, not bring them in at lunchtime for some sort of counselling!
Of course their questions should be answered responsibly, but I would not advocate encouraging themselves to pursue this topic, they are too young to, as the article put it, become sexualised (or I would say categorized) and have plenty of time to think long and hard about it when they get older.

LadyJ

I think that it's pretty ridiculous for anyone to say that a 12 year old has no idea about their sexuality. I have never had any doubt in my mind about the fact that I'm straight and no one has ever tried to encourage me to "think long and hard about it".

I think the problem people seem to be having with this is that the kids are gay,not that they haven't thought enough about it.

Everyone seems to think it cute when little boys kiss little girls,no one freaks out or encourages them to be sure that they explore all the options before committing to being a heterosexual,yet I can see parents having a hard time accepting that their little boy enjoys kissing other little boys.

This buddy scheme seems to be a good idea in one sense. However,I would worry that it might alienate these children even more by emphasising that they are "different". What we really need to do is emphasise the fact that everyone is unique and that children are still just people,regardless of their sexuality. Today's children need to be taught how to accept people for who they are,regardless of race,sexuality,gender etc. It's about time we brought our children up to be completey colourblind and tolerant of people,no matter how they choose to live their lives.

Zombrex

LadyJ wrote:

I think that it's pretty ridiculous for anyone to say that a 12 year old has no idea about their sexuality. I have never had any doubt in my mind about the fact that I'm straight and no one has ever tried to encourage me to "think long and hard about it".

I think the problem people seem to be having with this is that the kids are gay,not that they haven't thought enough about it.

Everyone seems to think it cute when little boys kiss little girls,no one freaks out or encourages them to be sure that they explore all the options before committing to being a heterosexual,yet I can see parents having a hard time accepting that their little boy enjoys kissing other little boys.

This buddy scheme seems to be a good idea in one sense. However,I would worry that it might alienate these children even more by emphasising that they are "different". What we really need to do is emphasise the fact that everyone is unique and that children are still just people,regardless of their sexuality. Today's children need to be taught how to accept people for who they are,regardless of race,sexuality,gender etc. It's about time we brought our children up to be completey colourblind and tolerant of people,no matter how they choose to live their lives.

Well said

Dades

I think that idea is ridiculous.

As LadyJ says this can only have the effect of alienating or raising the profile of the kids involved.

I don't whether or not young kids can know for sure if they are gay or straight, but I know I disagree with the idea that they should be pigeonholed before they even leave school.

ChityWest

fly_agaric wrote:

Row over minder scheme for gay pupils

So can primary school age children really know for certain that they are gay and need support, or the full implications of calling someone "gay" as an insult and need education beyond the fact that they should not insult or bully people?

Or is this yet another effort by a pathologically sex-obsessed society to ram its fixations down the throats of its children?

It is all very, very strange!

Call me old fashioned as well - I seriously doubt that kids know what the hell they are at that age - to me this sounds like political correctness gone off the rails.

Bullying should be tackled head on absolutely - bullies expelled and their parents fined or whatever. But validating a 12 year olds notions about their possible homosexuality seems a bit much if you ask me. That all seems very wrong and unsavoury to me - it is sexualising children who should be out there kicking a ball around and enjoying their childhood.

*commence flaming*

LadyJ

ChityWest wrote:

But validating a 12 year olds notions about their possible homosexuality seems a bit much if you ask me.

This just sounds quite patronising to me. Just because some people might believe that children are too young to know anything about their sexuality at age 12,doesn't mean that it isn't an issue for the child. We can't just ignore children's problems,hoping that they might go away over time.

Also,I find it rich that the Catholic church has a problem with kids of 12 making a decision about their sexuality when it is at this same age that these children are asked to make a decision about their faith and "confirm" it and are from then on seen as adults in the eyes of the church.

InFront

LadyJ wrote:

This just sounds quite patronising to me. Just because some people might believe that children are too young to know anything about their sexuality at age 12,doesn't mean that it isn't an issue for the child.

I dont doubt that some children at this age think they are one way or the other, thats fine, but theyre young children and who have only recently found out that Santa doesnt exist. They are too young to know for definite about their sexuality. I have a classmate who claims he wasnt sure until he came to college and he was 18 or 19.

Lets suppose these children are gay. Now no matter what your views may be on homosexual practice, why on earth do these kids need counselling or therapeutic input? Children need to be children.

I have never had any doubt in my mind about the fact that I'm straight and no one has ever tried to encourage me to "think long and hard about it".

Me neither, good for us:rolleyes: . My point is that people who are gay will tell you that in general they consider and contemplate on their sexuality very deeply before committing to it, more so than we might. Can gay people confirm this ("Is there a homosexual in the building!??") That is all that I am saying, that and the fact that this contemplation need not occur at such an early stage. Let them be 12 year olds first and answer their questions. But for goodness sake stop trying to figure it all out for them.

elivsvonchiaing

When I was a kid a boy in my class came out. I was 13 (think). The whole concept of homosexuality was completely new to me. I found out about it when I was twelve.

I also suspect this was the same time he did. He took time to consider and realised he was gay.

I echo previous posts but must amplify this; a 7 year old might think thay they are somehow different, have no ideas why; have homesexuality explained to them and think: "this is where I belong...", (as an escapism for whatever problems they have - e.g. their mother is an alcoholic, their father is their mother)

I think 12 years is acceptable for children to know about sexuality - don't think this is ever too late for some (deeply troubled kids can be spotted a mile off and this information can be relayed earlier) - I just feel before this is too early for most kids.

fly_agaric

InFront wrote:

Lets suppose these children are gay. Now no matter what your views may be on homosexual practice, why on earth do these kids need counselling or therapeutic input? Children need to be children.

I've been thinking...like the article itself and most of the posts we should really replace "children" with "boys" here seeing as they will get the "benefits" of these social engineering efforts.

To separate out all the things in that article:

I think homosexuality and homophobia should be covered as part of a good sex education programme at about age 12 at the earliest.

I think children (er...sorry, boys) who are tossing around stuff like "gay" and "sissy" as insults [this goes on before age 12 or so] generally do not need special reeducation and punishments to stamp out their "homophobia". Unless of course "homophobia" is some kind of innate disease in boys which should be eradicated by govt. policy as we try to create the Better Man (i.e. social engineering). If their behaviour becomes bullying, they need to be punished/corrected for that.

I don't think that children on the receiving end of such bullying should be given special supports vs. those being persecuted for other reasons (this singles them out as others have said) or special counselling/advice about their sexuality (which they may not need and may not be ready for in any case).

I think people seem to have a weird obsession with sex, abuse and victimhood at the moment and these types of ideas are another manifestation of it.

LadyJ wrote:

yet I can see parents having a hard time accepting that their little boy enjoys kissing other little boys.

There you have it. Parents - the closeminded bigots standing in the way of the Better Man (and the better boy before that). Perhaps children [or just boys:)] should be given over to govt. run care homes staffed by "experts" for the good of us all?

The Corinthian

It might be an idea that we allow kids to reach at least puberty, if not later before we facilitate and quite possibly reinforce any inclination to sexual deviancy they may have.

LadyJ

I agree that children should not be "sexualised" at such a young age and,as I said,I don't think that much good could come of this buddy scheme. However,all I wanted to say was that sexuality is obviously a part of a child's development and it is certainly something that all children are going to explore and be curious about.

I wish that things like this didn't cause problems for kids at such a young age,but clearly they do so maybe it should be addressed. I'm not saying that we should force our children to pick a team to play for,I'm merely saying that if a child feels that they might like to talk to someone about how they are feeling,with regards to any confusion or realisations about their sexuality,then that should be ok. If they don't care and it's not making their life difficult then fine,let them head out to play but if a child is having problems then we can't afford to just brush it under the rug because then we run the risk of these problems scarring the child in the future.

I completely agree that kids should be allowed to just be kids but sometimes it's also important to help them grow into confident and well adjusted adults.

fly_agaric

Funnily enough, there was a rambling, somewhat tangentially related article about childhood and innocence and adults in the IT today...

Following an Adult Agenda

Zombrex

LadyJ wrote:

I completely agree that kids should be allowed to just be kids but sometimes it's also important to help them grow into confident and well adjusted adults.

Agreed

To everyone else, not sure if any here remembers being 12, but I was certainly sexual aware at that stage. I remember having posters of girls like Kylie tucked under my bed, I remember (to quote Nick Horby) suddenly noticing girls were "everywhere" I remember really wanting to kiss a girl at school.

It is rather naive of people to say that 12 year olds are not aware of their sexuality. They might not fully understand it, they might not have developed to the stage where they want sexual intercourse or anything like that (or even understand what sexual intercouse is), but at 12 you have certainly started to have feelings towards the opposite sex, so is it not natural to assume that homosexuality does (or at least can) start to develop at the same time?

Being gay does not mean simply homosexual sexual intercourse. Being a gay 12 year old doesn't mean that 12 has to be thinking about anal sex with other boys. Homosexuality at that age (i'd imagine) takes the same forms as heterosexuality at that age, ie awaking attractions

The idea that a 12 year old being gay some how sexualises him far beyond his years is rather ridiculous TBH. It doesn't sexualise him any more than a heterosexual boy flicking through his sisters glossy magazines and feeling "funny".

LadyJ

Wicknight wrote:

Being gay does not mean simply homosexual sexual intercourse. Being a gay 12 year old doesn't mean that 12 has to be thinking about anal sex with other boys. Homosexuality at that age (i'd imagine) takes the same forms as heterosexuality at that age, ie awaking attractions

The idea that a 12 year old being gay some how sexualises him far beyond his years is rather ridiculous TBH. It doesn't sexualise him any more than a heterosexual boy flicking through his sisters glossy magazines and feeling "funny".

An excellent and important point.

Zombrex

LadyJ wrote:

An excellent and important point.

Thanks

I think the most important bit is that children should be taught that, while not everyone is gay and bigotry exists, there is nothing actually wrong with being gay.

That, unforunately isn't going to happen over night, as (even judging by some posts here) adults haven't realised yet that there is nothing wrong with being gay.

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

The idea that a 12 year old being gay some how sexualises him far beyond his years is rather ridiculous TBH. It doesn't sexualise him any more than a heterosexual boy flicking through his sisters glossy magazines and feeling "funny".

Actually either can. In psychology it’s known as imprinting and in sexuality is generally considered to be a significant determinant of it.

bonkey

Wicknight wrote:

Well there seem to be a few things proposed here.

On the buddy for gay pupils. In my view all bullying should be tackled (which is a very hard thing to do), and I think the "buddy" system is a good idea.. But singling out a certain groups of children and given them buddies seems a bit silly. Does a kid that is being bullied because he wears Dune Stores trainers (yes that was me) need less help and protection than a gay student?

Indeed. Bullying is the problem, not who is being bullied nor why.

I don't see any problem with including homosexuality in normal primary school sex education classes. Though I imagine a lot of people would, the argument being they don't want to uncourage or promote sinful/abnormal/devient sexual behaviour. So I guess it depends if you view homosexuality as ok or wrong.

Given its legal status, I would argue that one's view on whether it is ok or not should have little to do with it.

InFront

The response of the authorities in this case is was quite reassuring, they didnt seem too impressed by the Gay/ Lesbian group who proposed the idea and Ive no doubt that common sense will, or has, prevailed.

This whole idea is completely mad. Firstly let the parents be responsible for the child's upbringing and answering his questions. they know the child better than any "buddy" and should be the main contributors to their child's healthy development.

I doubt if anyone here is arguing that homosexuals are bad people. But children who are starting to feel they differ from their peers as regards who they are sexually attracted to, do not need this kind of therapy from probably unqualified "buddies" as twelve year old children.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

Actually either can. In psychology it’s known as imprinting and in sexuality is generally considered to be a significant determinant of it.

Sorry, that wasn't what I mean (though re-reading I can see why you thought I did). I wasn't talking about imprinting of sexual orientation at an early stage.

I meant that there is no reason to believe that a 12 year old gay boy has any more developed, or adult/explicate in nature, sexual desires or awareness than a 12 year old straight boy, just because he is gay or aware he is gay.

There seems to be a bit of linking homosexuality with sexual desire in a purely lustful manner, ie homosexuals are interested in wild crazy sex and thats about it. That (as far as I know from my experiences with gay friends) is nonsense. Homosexual orientation encompasses the same wide range of emotions as straight orientation.

So if a 12 year old boy is just thinking about kissing a girl, or getting giggly by looking at his older brothers playboy, it is natural to assume that a 12 year old gay boy is only at that level as well.

layke

Mega Sigh*

I have gay mates. Not one of them had any special councelling, nor would they want it. They would feel different, weird, not in the socail circle.
Now in their 20's and older they are fine, none of them are weirdo's who are fu**ed up because they missed out on councelling sessions. In fact i'd be cetain if they were made a big deal out of they wouldn't be more messed up.

Kids should be kids, they are smarter then you think and at 12 if you don't know what gay is/means your living in the clouds. I knew it all well before my first sex Ed classes. The only new thing we learned is that every bloke masturbates, we all went bright red when the nurse said that.

Leave em alone, they will be fine and LadyJ has made the most compelling arguments in this thread which I think everyone can agree. Kudos to you.

Shellie13

I think it's ridiculous!!!
Kids that agewill identify their sexuality based on tv/books/games etc...
it can change from week to week. Identifying before they so much as leave primary school/hit puberty is crazy!
Bulling should be tacked ALL forms but not by segregating them!

rsynnott

ChityWest wrote:

Call me old fashioned as well - I seriously doubt that kids know what the hell they are at that age - to me this sounds like political correctness gone off the rails.

I knew. I know quite a few people who also knew at that age. When it comes to it, many 12 year olds are already fancying the opposite gender; why not the same one?

This is a very silly solution, though. The correct one would be to educate kids about the existence of gay people (and also single mothers, and so on) and make it clear that there's nothing unusual or strange about it.