Pricewars: Cynicism in modern design

Baggio...

Edit: Now with Foreword by CuLT

This thread is stemmed from a discussion in another thread about how the financial end of the design business is handled.

Yes, I think the thead title is dramatic.

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"Not a good starting point - when the seller "you" asks "me" the buyer for the selling price."

Why would you not want to discuss money? It makes every sense for a some one to ask about it. If fact I'd be rather surprised they didn't. I'm not accusing YOU of anything mate, but from your above statement I'd personally be watchful (you should have read my post properly I said “it makes me think”).

If any of the moderators think I've gone a bit hard on you (sorry mod dudes), I'm sure they will PM me. But there's a lot of people out here who look for freebies off illustrators. Now, I'm not saying that YOU are looking for cheap labour. But there are a lot of people out there who do – so I nothing wrong with a bit of clarification. Just look at the way people post on “Creative Ireland”.

As as for a bad experience...Yeah I was bullied as a child:D But don't worry YOU wont have to know me, as I don't draw Christmas Cards, I do other stuff.

Bagg.

TempestSabre

Its a bit unrealistic to expect someone to post all the pricing and project details of a job on the web. Its also unfair to assume that every person is trying to rip you off as a designer. You should reserve that judgement till you've a better idea of the project and people involved. Via an internet forum isn't going to achieve that.

That said, ripping off designers is very common, so most designers who are trying to make a living from design, tend to be quite cynical about new jobs until some level of trust is established.

X-SL

TempestSabre wrote:

Its a bit unrealistic to expect someone to post all the pricing and project details of a job on the web. Its also unfair to assume that every person is trying to rip you off as a designer. You should reserve that judgement till you've a better idea of the project and people involved. Via an internet forum isn't going to achieve that.

That said, ripping off designers is very common, so most designers who are trying to make a living from design, tend to be quite cynical about new jobs until some level of trust is established.

The OP has a bit of an attitude anyway. This is getting offtopic.

Baggio...

TempestSabre,

Point taken..

Maybe I was jumping the gun a bit. Perhaps I have become a tad cynical in my old age (but for some good reasons as you have pointed out).

Cheers,

Bagg.

forbairt

completely on / off topic .. when you've more than 10 posts you can start commenting big time .... till then ...EEK

when you've more than 100 posts it means you've been around at least a bit ...

and so on ....

A lot of designers don't actually know what to charge till they know the customer ... is this illegal ??? not entirely sure ...

some customers = start ups ... / no money so they have no money we'll do freebie work on basis of more work ..

some customers = companies .. so we'll do work based on you're a company and should be charged as such ...

some customers = ******s so we've got to ask the basic questions

A lot of us ask .. what do you want to spend on the project .. cus we honestly don't know the figure that will scare you away ...
You may say ... well then you aren't for me .. but we say .... we want the work and the potential of more work ... so let us know what you want and how much you are willing to pay ....I think its a fairly valid question ... jesus you can probably advertise and get a website designed for 5 quid ...

heggie

as a designer, i'd have to say I absolutely will NOT work for the potential of more work! that line is as old as they come! if you do a good job anyway, then more than likely the client comes back for more.

I dont think its fair tho to expect the OP to post a budget here on the forums, that kinda thing should be done privately.

CuLT

This issue of "what price to ask?" seems to come up rather frequently, I know I've wrestled with it myself on occasion.

heggie, I've seen you give some insightful answers to this question before; would you mind doing up a short thread dealing with what considerations would-be designers should think about when considering prices?

DadaKopf

Any designer/illustrator who takes this up should make sure to write up a contract signed by both parties to the effect that the illustration remains the intellectual property of the illustrator, who licenses the artwork to the client. Only fair, commercial rates should be paid, and there could be the possibility of royalties if the cards are to be sold.

Still, the OP seems to have the right attitude in terms of letting the suppliers set the price.

DadaKopf

Sorry, just read Heggie's post. Basically, people working for more work, or working for a serious pay cut, undermines the graphic design profession as a while.

DON'T DO IT!

Here's how it should be done: work out your overheads, let's assume you arrive at the roughly average hourly rate of €35 for a decent designer:

(1) Meet/speak to the client, get the brief, don't commit to a price
(2) work out how many hours the job will take (A)
(3) A x 35 = Price
(4) take VAT into consideration if you're registered
(5) sign a contract specifying price, what work is covered by the job, and that extra work will cost more, number of proofs (2 is good), intellectual property to be retained by the designer (unless negotiated) etc.

Let's put it this way: would anyone hire a plumber and ask them to do the job for free, but you'll promise him more work? Would a plumber work for that? NO.

Baggio...

Plus make sure you get some cash up front.... Therefore if the client decides not to pay (which we all know can happen) at least you can cover some of your costs.

Good point about people selling there work too cheaply, it's really bad for the industry. Also if people get paid less they generally do a half-assed job. Therefore the standard starts to plummet. Just look at the some of the “very average” GD and web design out there at the moment.

Just my 2 cents,

Cheers,

Bagg.

heggie

absolutely dadakopf, thats exactly it.

Cult i'd be happy do write up a pricing guide that I go by, if its any help.

CuLT

heggie wrote:

absolutely dadakopf, thats exactly it.

Cult i'd be happy do write up a pricing guide that I go by, if its any help.

That would be fantastic. Cheers!

Sonnenblumen

Despite my initial dissapointment with the reactions, lots of viewings but few replies, I am 2 + weeks later more than happy with the select few private but highly professional PMs I have received in response to my search for a designer.
I would however like to take a moment to respond to postings selecting none in particular. As an opener some have sought to be helpful, professional and based what appears to me on sound business practice. Others have a lot to learn if they wish to succeed in a professional capacity.

For example, I sell design every day, I never assume the client is out to screw me, work and/or price wise. Yes there are such clients but INMHO more designers screw clients in many ways. Good guys will be busy, well capable of handling an enquiry etc. Amazing that some of the biggest mouth offs know so little about how to charge never mind the client-project interface.

Handling cliuent expectations is much more important than am I charging the right rate. Rates are simple to determine, but quality of workmanship and professionalism much more valuable to clients. Some clients me included offer additional carrot of other work, not ot screw designers but to incentivise a wider creative input across several media. Again I would emphasis the importance of not satisfying the immediate task but also coinsider then prospect of a wider relationship both in design and business terms.

Pre-judging a situation on little or now fundamental basis is poor business sense and makes for quick exit. If then designer cannot listen, then risk losing the client at an early stage.

Clients are not always right, but being paymasters carry more decision power but on the otherhand if someone wants guarantees before moving off 'GO' then there in the wrong business.

To end I would encourage more of the younger/newer designers to take risk, develop some business savy and foster good client relationships, dump the siege mentality of they're going to screw me. There are lots of role models around town, but there are many more whinging failures.

Good luck to all and I appreciate the interest/comments provided and I only be too delighted to make another designer a little richer.

Briony Noh

This thread seems to have gone off the rails a bit. The OP asked if anyone wanted to try out for some work. Not unusual in itself. Why has everyone started talking about the money instead of the design? I don't work for free anymore, but sometimes I do. For me, it's all down to the project.

Sonnenblumen, if you're still looking, please send me the brief. If I like it and feel I can contribute to it, I'll send you a couple of roughs and THEN we can haggle over how much we each think I'm worth.

Isn't that at least a part of what art is all about?

CuLT

I'm sure many people feel the same way Briony, but it's very easy for a new designer to get burned, and frequently become somewhat suspicious, if not downright cynical. It's a shame, but that's what happens.

Also, understand that since this board was created in 2003, there have been numerous "Hey guys, design a logo for my company and you get a 15 euro voucher for HMV!", completely insulting every designer on the forum over the age of 13. To have your work devalued like that isn't easy to take, and many people treat designers (online) like a gaggle of schoolchildren playing with their pirated copy of photoshop.

This discussion is better suited for another thread, so I will be splitting it accordingly.

Baggio...

Hey all,

I'd say to any new designer, just be watchful. Don't be too eager and don't sell yourself short. Not everybody is trying to rip you off, but there are a lot of people out there who want something for nothing (especially in our field). Just ask any of the experienced designers out there and they will tell you the same thing. Oh, and beware of the inevitable “Time waster” clients, who don't know what they want. You gotta' show these people that YOUR time is money – just like any other profession.

Just my two cents,

Baggio...

heggie

Briony NohT wrote:

I don't work for free anymore, but sometimes I do. For me, it's all down to the project. ... please send me the brief. If I like it and feel I can contribute to it, I'll send you a couple of roughs and THEN we can haggle over how much we each think I'm worth.

Isn't that at least a part of what art is all about?

NO!

This is whats making *some* people expect things for free.

FREE PITCHING IS WRONG

A landspcaper wouldnt create a few gardens for you, and have you pick which you would like, if any at all!

Your portfolio should be enough for someone to have confidence in your abilities, and no unpaid pitching should be necessary.

And you charge for your work now... ???

I'm guessing your a student/hobbyist 'designer' , so this post may not mean much to you, but this carry on damages the industry as a whole

edit: baggio's right, charge by the hour and not the job. for quoting etc, include a number of revisions in initial quote, and any additional be considered 'new work'

tba

I work in an industry where the price is decided not by the designer but by a precenatge of the works. In that climate it is your previous work that stands to you and often initally interests the client, however we are willing to spend money to get money.

Only the very best can sit on their laurals and wait for work to come to them, others have to take work where they can get it, often undercutting other people to do so, negoiation is as relevant in big business as it is in a market bazaar.

Free pitching is not wrong, it may annoy others who feel it is cheating or devaluing but some people are willing to go out of their way to get clients.

As for the worry of clients not paying, that is where contracts come into play.

A self deluding belief that "if your draw it they will come" may end in tearful nights, and broken pencils.

However I will say this, only do charity or personal work for free, any pitching you do will be added (invisibly) to your invoice later and remember that an agreement over the internet is not leagly binding.

heggie

the flaw in that is what if they dont select you after your free pitch (which is added invisibly to the invoice?)

Free pitching is not ever a good idea, and not many other industries are expected to do this. Besides, its much better to be totally open, and not adding invisible items to an invoice!

tba

Any right minded Client is not going to pay for 10 pitches. Do you pay for an insurance quote, for looking at the price tag on a suit or any order you care to mention. Because the design industry often requires work for a pitch (though not always) we assume we should get payed for it.

Lets bring to to a practical example. A client asks for a brochure. You pitch with a few previous examples of that paticular type of work. You would also have an idea or two already so you would present some rough layouts and sketches, maybe some fonts, maybe some colours. Total sum time spent doing this 2-5 hours. Possible return on the job 50+ hours, not to mention the possible return custom. Is that a bad deal?

heggie

ok, from this i'm nearly 100% sure you dont work in design! i have never done a free pitch, nor ever will (know of no design companies that do), and i get enough business. It's a good idea to work in the industry you're giving advice about :rolleyes:

Baggio...

Hi,

I have no problem with pitching with previous example of works and rough “possible approaches” – that's just common sense - but this isn't really what folks are complaining about; we're talking about clients that expect well-developed concepts in a pitch – more than a few rough sketches.

Clients should judge you on your previous work - they should know your capabilities via your portfolio. These people should be buying your “ideas and time”, so if you don't charge for pitching, you are leaving yourself short. Plus, they could take your idea and get someone else to implement it (even cheaper perhaps). Obviously concepts have to be discussed with the client - a few sketches or whatever - but 5hrs unpaid work sounds excessive to me: that's over half a day for free!

Cheers,

Bagg.

tba

heggie wrote:

ok, from this i'm nearly 100% sure you dont work in design! i have never done a free pitch, nor ever will (know of no design companies that do), and i get enough business. It's a good idea to work in the industry you're giving advice about :rolleyes:

I wish you well, I am merely telling my position. Currently the practice I work in is engaged in a project we pitched for free. The return is almost 200 fold the cost, I think that is worth it, especially if the figures get high enough.

Baggio... wrote:

5hrs unpaid work sounds excessive to me: that's over half a day for free!

It really depends on the size of project.

heggie

What is it you do? and what does your pitch entail? we may be talking about different things...

tba

Im an architect. A "sales pitch" from my point would be an outline of previous work, standards of practice, rates and time frames followed by one of three things.

1. A 3D render to describe the project to lay persons terms plus possibly 2D drawings to convey the scheme.
2. A discussion based purely on money.
3. Nothing the client is impressed enough with our previous work or has a fixed idea in mind already.

The first is the most expensive and is used only on large projects in excess of a few million (however on some occasions an amount can be given to the successfull applicant, a competition for example), the later two are for purely developer lead projects and cost very little above the time they take to prepare.