T21 Rail Project the Most Sensible Prioritisation

Transport21 Fan

For me personally I would have to say:

Interconnector and Assoc. Projects
MetroNorth
Luas Link-Up
Midleton
(Navan-Drogheda would be here if it was included in T21)
MetroWest
other Luas Lines
Ennis-Athenry

I don't consider the nothern half of the WRC is viable as it will not deliver a decent service, so I have not included it.

I probably would support the northern half of the WRC if a new alignment was was chosen such as a new direct route from Galway to Tuam and elevated sections through Tuam itself, before Claremorris just to get over the many streets/N17 which are at grade and more elevated sections a places such as Charlestown (the WRC goes right through the main street) and Tubbercurry (nightmare traffic junction/level crossing scenario if rail line opens).

You would probably eliminate enough of the level crossings by doing this in order to provide a decent rail option down the west coast, but the cost would be much more, but having said that, the passenger numbers using the service would be very much greater that the 750 a day project for the "traditional" route as the speeds would be really competitive with road transport.

Couple this with a decent LUTS plan for Mayo and Sligo and we would be talking something which would do the business for rail transport in Connacht, but as we know WoT are not really a rail transport lobby, and could never understand such thinking. Which is a shame as the rush to get the line open before a preist dies is robbing any chance of a pragmatic approach to the northern half of the WRC which would deliver decent services.

Navan-Drogheda should have been included in T21 and the more I think about Clonsilla to Navan the more I think it's "fine", but seems a lot of time an money to get a rail service to Navan when you can do it via Drogheda for less time and money. I also think Ashbourne should be included if Clonsilla-Navan goes ahead. This does make sense in many ways.

Some people claim that T21 has no detail. This is false the detail for these projects was carried out in Platform for Change, Strategic Rail Review and various IE studies on Midleton and Dunboyne. The Dunboyne-Navan and WRC are the only project in T21 which have not been properly evaluted and therefore should not be prioritised in my opinion. The Northern WRC can get extra buses and Navan can get the Drogheda line upgraded in the interim.

One more thing, am I the only one who is worried that the Luas city centre link-up seems to have gone very quiet lately?

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Navan-Drogheda should have been included in T21 and the more I think about Clonsilla to Navan the more I think "OK", but seems a lot of time an money to get a rail service to Navan when you can do it via Drogheda for less time and money.

The point you are making is correct. The idea was presented as Navan Clonsilla as doing it right from the start, a clean sweep, and ignoring Navan Drogheda because the "ideal" wish of Navan Clonsilla was coming. But ignoring Navan Drogheda made no sense when you consider Navan Clonsilla is almost 3 elections away, and the traffic is brutal.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Some people claim that T21 has no detail.

I know I've been guilty of that, and I stand corrected on that point. It's a habit I've developed, refering to Navan.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Dunboyne-Navan and WRC are the only project in T21 which have not been properly evaluted and therefore should not be prioritised in my opinion.

I've been reading speeches made on Transport 21. Navan doesn't feature at all, even in those by Meath Ministers. Navan isn't prioritised.

Navan Drogheda or Navan Clonsilla.

Your assessment is actually more generous than that of the government..

Transport21 Fan

On the Long Island Railroad everyday a couple of double-decker trains leaves sleepy Montauk Point and make the 2.5 hour journey into Manhattan and these trains are packed with commuters. You find similar rail communiting situations all over the US, Europe and the UK.

This is how I know Navan-Drogheda-Dublin would be a very popular service. If people can work on the trains with their laptops, or even sleep, the time is not really a factor. The 80 mins conservative estimate for Navan-Drogheda-Dublin is a do-able and enticing commute. It is not a overly lenghty outer-suburban commute rail by any international benchmark.

There are slots on the Northern Line and dozens more will open up when the Inteconnector comes on stream. Clonsilla-Navan can wait until they have a new route via Ashbourne.

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The 80 mins conservative estimate for Navan-Drogheda-Dublin is a do-able and enticing commute. It is not a overly lenghty outer-suburban commute rail by any international benchmark.

Anything is better than the 2.5hrs at the moment.. Although with the summer it is slightly better than that at present.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Clonsilla-Navan can wait until they have a new route via Ashbourne.

Another fair arguement for a Navan Drogheda upgrade. The journey time of Navan Drogheda, and Navan Ashbourne Clonsilla would be comparable so it would make sense to reinstate Navan Drogheda now as you say..

dowlingm

The thing about Tuam-Athenry is that it allows connection to either Dublin or Galway. I suspect that like Ennis-Athenry (and Ennis-Limerick) many of the users will actually be Dublin-bound. Pity Athenry station is a bit awkwardly laid out - maybe if the Tuam line approached from the other side...

A new alignment for Tuam might be useful (say from Oranmore? - 16 miles as the crow flies) as it could pass the airport but the cost (land acquisition and alignment planning) would be surely be huge compared to the cost of reinstating the existing one, plus the fact that the airport is in a bad place anyway from both weather and runway length standpoints. The Tuam alignment as it stands does curve away from Galway but not as much as from Gort (see below).

I am sceptical about the prospects of the Ennis-Athenry line for Galway commuters (as opposed to Intercity) simply because about Ardrahan you're heading northeast rather than northwest - I don't have track mileage but I would estimate based on google earth that you're talking about 11 miles by road and 18-20 by rail between where the rail curves and Oranmore - and that's with a reverse or change at Athenry.

_Kaiser_

Actually a few double deck trains would be a good idea for even the existing services to cope with capacity problems on the Maynooth line for example.

It's something Holland has had since the mid-80s (I know.. I was on them on launch day ), but I suppose someone will be quick to remind me that CIE never thought ahead, with the result that the bridges, stations etc aren't suitable

DerekP11

The Ennis - Athenry stretch of the WRC sounds good on paper as a "new" inter city link between Limerick and Galway. I think this idea is flawed on the ground, as the line curves away from Galway to reach Athenry. If it was capable of a decent speed, then this aspect would negate what I have said. However this line will not be capable of a speed that can pull back some of the additional miles it takes to connect with the line into Galway. We must remember that we are trying to adapt poorly built 19th century infrastructure to 21sy century needs. It's hard enough doing that with well built infrastructure from the 19th century. The line to and from Tuam suffers from the same problem.

I like T21fan's idea of a partial rebuild. In all fairness, if the west needs this railway so badly, then it would make sense to spend money doing it properly. Oranmore is a very changed place and would be ideal as the "HUB" for all lines to Galway. Athenry is still very much a small town without much social and economic development and is a considerable distance from where its all happening. So the line from Tuam should really be a new one running in near Ballybrit to the new Oranmore rail/bus interchange. Same goes for the line from Limerick. Divert it to Oranmore. North of Tuam doesn't even warrant a mention and unless diversion routes are examined, no part of it could ever be described as making a worthwhile contribution to the west of Ireland. Tuam can work. Limerick - Galway can work. But only if the routes are the most direct that they can be and deliver people to places they want to go.

Having thought about this for some time and examined the various for and against arguments, a proper professional study including diversions (instead of this insane belief that the line as it is can do the job) should be instigated. A botch job now could see its closure in our lifetimes. It didn't work as recently as 1976. So why reinvent the wheel that was prone to punctures. If the WRC is to work, it should be done properly.

Transport21 Fan

Yes, the most insane aspect of the WRC has always been just the desire to relay the 19th centruy rail line as it was before. This is just bonkers and in terms of operational integrity should not be tolerated in a 21st Century rail project - grade seperation is a key objective in any modern rail line restoration.

I really like the Oranmore idea with the three lines converging idea a lot. It makes far more sense than to just relay Athenry as is - which is pointless for modern rail operations.

It would also make a lot of sense if you are going to Tuam to have the station in Tuam elevated if the intention is to go on to Claremorris eventually, as the number of level crossings in Tuam itself would shut down the town's entire road network anytime a train was travelling between Tuam and Claremorris.

The Western Rail Corridor is only nuts if it's just reopened as was with all the level crossings and quirkey track layouts. Oranmore Interchange actually sounds like a very good idea.

markf909

Yes, the most insane aspect of the WRC has always been just the desire to relay the 19th centruy rail line as it was before.

It is a particularly tragic aspect of the WOT campaign that they have spent so much time just trying to get the railway re-opened without any thought into how operationally effective it will be. T21 you are bang on the money, what is the point of re-opening Ennis-Athenry when the line spends most of the time moving away from Galway city? :rolleyes:

DerekP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

It would also make a lot of sense if you are going to Tuam to have the station in Tuam elevated if the intention is to go on to Claremorris eventually, as the number of level crossings in Tuam itself would shut down the town's entire road network anytime a train was travelling between Tuam and Claremorris.

Another nugget of sense. If a new direct line from Tuam to Galway was built(as per my last post) then this idea provides futureproofing for any possible extensions northwards. Realistically, we are looking at a relocation of Tuam station. This will prevent the disruption of road traffic in the town and provide a solid possibility of a "new" line northwards that can tap into population centres.

We can all get sucked into the WRC debate, so based on the opinions that the existing route is badly built and routed through nothing, why not consider realigning/diverting the project so it becomes a real contributory infrastructural project for the west.

Afterall the Government have committed themselves to funding it, so why not do it right and that also requires the various CoCos to partake in terms of planning.

In conclusion....If Limerick - Galway is to be a real inter city rail line, diversions must be considered to factor in the current development of Galway, journey time and road competition. Likewise for Tuam - Galway commuter services. Forget Athenry. The real and sustainable point of convergence for the WRC in Galway is Oranmore.

Look at the map.

corktina

surely the most cost effective way to deliver a brand new railway to Oranmore would be in tandem with road improvements (ie alongside the projected new road..
...i have said before that it is pointless to just re-instate old railways for the sake of it....NEW railways is whats needed with a proper study of where they might be most needed, including places that may never have had a railway before....

dowlingm

To the P11 lads - if you wanted to run bilevel trains on the four main commuter lines into Dublin as presently constructed or as refurbed by the Kildare Project (let's ignore interconnector for a minute) - could it be done either loco hauled or electrically within the dimensions possible? Sorry if I asked this before, I may have on the old P11 board.

This is the spec of the GO Transit bilevels (run in loco+10 config) built by Bombardier - locos are 3000hp GM with separate 675hp HEP engine:
*Seating capacity: up to 162 passengers
*Length: 25.9 m (85 ft)
*Width: 3.0 m (9 ft 10 in)
*Height: 4.85 m (15 ft 11 in)
*Weight (empty): 49,440 kg (109,000 lb)

GO Transit are now expanding Toronto suburban on three lines to 12 bilevel carriages from 10, hauled by new Wabtec 3,600hp locos.

DerekP11

Dowlingm

Unfortunately the answer is no. Both Bi level DMU and EMU operation could not happen on the lines you mention. Since 1984 the policy on Irish Railways has been to futureproof all new developments to allow for electrification and not Bilevel or doubledecker trains.

It has been mentioned to IE and their reponse has always been, "were looking at it". One further "disadvantage" that has been mooted has been the long unloading times for these trains and how that ultimately fits in with a fast transit system.

I guess you have a line of thought on this, so we'd be happy to hear it. Furthermore,you should register on the new P11 board. Past mistakes in relation to moderation have been rectified. Your contribution will be welcomed as it should have been on the previous board.

dowlingm

DerekP11 - at the moment I'm trying to keep board registrations under double figures but will give your invite some thought

I'm not sure how the heck they manage it at Toronto Union which is the sole hub all seven lines feed into (each has 20-30min headway at peak) with 1620 seated passengers each movement (there is also some intercity VIA Rail traffic). I'm a subway user so I only know what I hear from colleagues who ride it and from local transit sites.

From a look at the GO Accessibility Guide, they have access to 8 through tracks with six centre and one side platform serving the four western and three eastern lines. The overwhelming terminal track nature of Dublin railways obviously means that's not going to happen any time soon. There's also something to be said for the separation of lines such that an incident at one station can't take the whole system down, as happened in Toronto once.

http://www.gotransit.com/PUBLIC/accessible/GO_Accessibility_Guide_for_Riders.pdf
(page 13).

It's a bit disappointing that IE won't consider bilevels or futureproof it - if DASH has taught us anything it's that extending platforms and tightening signalling is not simple so going from 8 car 29000s to 6-8 car bilevels would be a big win. Ho hum.

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

*Height: 4.85 m (15 ft 11 in)

There are several bridges that would be below 4.5m, the near hump-back bridge on the Dublin Road in Malahide is certainly. That means change the bridge or change the track bed.

Victor

markf909 wrote:

It is a particularly tragic aspect of the WOT campaign that they have spent so much time just trying to get the railway re-opened without any thought into how operationally effective it will be. T21 you are bang on the money, what is the point of re-opening Ennis-Athenry when the line spends most of the time moving away from Galway city? :rolleyes:

But remember who WoT are. And they have already suggested diversions for Knock and Knock Airport.