leaveing

the clansman

lads how do i oficialy leave the catholic church? i believe in god and jesus and that but the church...no. i dont agree that evrything they do is right. i dont like allmost worshiping a pope...in short i feel the way to heaven(if it is there) is not by doing what the church say.

any good reasons why i should not leave?

Crucifix

I think someone posted about this before, and the conclusion was that there isn't any 'official' way to leave the church.

BrianCalgary

the clansman wrote:

lads how do i oficialy leave the catholic church? i believe in god and jesus and that but the church...no. i dont agree that evrything they do is right. i dont like allmost worshiping a pope...in short i feel the way to heaven(if it is there) is not by doing what the church say.

any good reasons why i should not leave?

No good reason. If the RC church doesn't fit your style I would suggest going church shopping. Try other denominations and/or evangelical churches in your area. Find one that uses the Bible as the basis for it's teaching and allows you to use your giftings in service to God through the local church.

If you need help in finding a good church in your area PM me, exceslior or puck or check the list at the top of this board.

All the best
Brian

Fallen Seraph

Walk through a nunnery after dark. You'll (allegedly) be technically excommunicated for it.

Lunoma

There actually is an official way of leaving. From what I recall, one has to write a letter to the parish where he or she was baptised stating that one want to detach from the RC Church. An ex-Catholic friend of mine did it and they just sent her a letter back ranting on about how she will go to hell and all this crap but in shorthand she was officially unbaptised.

You could always join a different church but in reality they are all very much the same. Some are more liberal than others but they are all Christian.

Good luck anyway!

Dirk Gently

Lunoma wrote:

There actually is an official way of leaving. From what I recall, one has to write a letter to the parish where he or she was baptised stating that one want to detach from the RC Church. An ex-Catholic friend of mine did it and they just sent her a letter back ranting on about how she will go to hell and all this crap but in shorthand she was officially unbaptised.

Sounds like fun. What exactly do you have to say in the letter? Do you list reasons why you want out of the popes conscripted army? Would love to get a response from my local church for the craic. Doesn't really bother me much either way as my baptisim meant nothing because I was too young to resist but would be nice to be offically kicked out of the church.

smidgy

Yes there are too many reasons why you should not leave ..

Just one....

The catholic church was/is the predominant christian church for 2000 years. You dont flush 2000 years of christian thinking/studying down the toilet because you feel like it. It surely must stand for something.

Nevyn

Bollix

Sorry but that statement is just that.
Which variations of the catholic church ? and the catholic has not exsisted for 2000 years.
The ideals behind christainity have and even then so much of it has changed for what was in or out of fashion at the time.

Anyone who is happy as a catholic great, anyone who is having misgivings should spend time to figure out why and to really investigate the faith and see if they can resolve the issues.
But if how you feel and what you think and bleive is clearly not catholic then yes it is time to move on and if you still think you are christian at that stage then look at where your spirituality lies.

Really just because a faith has been around for a while does not make it right for anyone person.
Buddhism has been arround for longer and has a lot more followers then catholicism.

Sapien

Plus there's the fact that it's all inherently nonsensical.

Lunoma

clown bag wrote:

Sounds like fun. What exactly do you have to say in the letter? Do you list reasons why you want out of the popes conscripted army? Would love to get a response from my local church for the craic. Doesn't really bother me much either way as my baptisim meant nothing because I was too young to resist but would be nice to be offically kicked out of the church.

Oh no, I was never Catholic, silly! I am Jewish with a conscience ! My friend was Catholic and she just wrote saying that she didn't want to be Catholic anymore as she doesn't agree with their views and doesn't believe in G-d, Jesus, etc... Then they sent her a hilarious and rather amusing rambling letter saying that her body will burn in the fires of hell, etc. Actually, three full pages in total of washed up crap! Some of it was rather creepy. Anyway, in short they stated that they burnt any records of her existance in their religious organisation.

Thaedydal wrote:

Really just because a faith has been around for a while does not make it right for anyone person.
Buddhism has been arround for longer and has a lot more followers then catholicism.

Really? I thought Catholicism had the highest number of followers in the world! I suppose with all the Buddhists' reincarnations, it adds up!

robindch

> Then they sent her a hilarious and rather amusing rambling letter
> saying that her body will burn in the fires of hell, etc. Actually,
> three full pages in total of washed up crap!

Out of interest -- if this letter is floating about, is there any chance that you could scan this, blur out the names of the church and your friend (and any other info that might identify who's involved), and put it on the internet somewhere? I'd certainly be fascinated to see it...

Goebels

smidgy wrote:

The catholic church was/is the predominant christian church for 2000 years. You dont flush 2000 years of christian thinking/studying down the toilet because you feel like it. It surely must stand for something.

PFFT. The catholic church doesn't symbolise what Christianity is about. They glorify the saints and the virgin mary over Jesus. Confession and the pope are against Christianity ("no one come to the father but by me").
Catechism of the Catholic Church admits that prayers to Mary are doctrinal:

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries...[emphasis mine]

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope

Also, Consecration to Mary, which starts off,

"O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart. We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country."

This is one of many prayers to Mary. Notice the salutation to Mary, and the giving of our very souls to Mary. I'm sure you can understand how blasphemous this sounds to give our souls to anyone but Jesus Christ!

Sacraments for Salvation?

Catechism states the following:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Now the last clause is very revealing. I think you'd agree that good works are the fruits of true faith. James made that point so eloquently in his epistle. True faith will be evidenced by good works. However, it is equally true that no works will save us, whether they be works of faith (such as giving to the needy, caring for the downtrodden, exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit, etc.), or works of the law. The latter are analogous to the liturgical works (sacraments) of Christendom. No, we will not be saved because we are meek and patient, or because we faithfully performed the sacraments. We will be saved because we placed our faith in Jesus Christ. That was Jesus' teaching as well.

Catholic rejects Papal Infallibility

Regarding the one true church, the following appears in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"816 'The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.'

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

As you can see, this one section identifies the Catholic Church as "the sole Church of Christ." Note that the subparagraph is very specific that the "fullness of the means of salvation" can only be obtained through the Catholic Church. There are other sections of the catechism that teach this as well. I encourage you to share this portion of the Catechism with your priest and ask yourselves if you truly believe this Catholic doctrine.

If not, on what other matters of doctrine do you feel the Catholic Church errs? Even without the explicit statement above, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that justification comes only through adherence to the seven sacraments. Most Christian churches (though not all) observe only two -- communion and baptism. And we recognize the biblical teaching that justification and salvation are not imparted by participation in these sacraments. Salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Catholic bible:

"2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed."

Prior to 1870, the Catholic Church did not hold papal infallibility as a true doctrine. This changed at Vatican I when Pius IX declared that popes are infallible when speaking ex-cathedra. After this official declaration by Pius IX at Vatican I, papal infallibility was suddenly part of Catholic doctrine. In the 1871 edition of Stephen Keenan's popular Catechism, appeared the following Q & A:

Q. Is the pope infallible?
A. Yes, the pope is infallible.
Q. But some Catholics, before the Vatican Council, denied the infallibility of the pope, which was impugned by this very Catechism.
A. Yes, they did so under the usual reservation, insofar as they then could grasp the mind of the church, and subject to her (the church's) future definitions, thus implicitly accepting the dogma.

Jesus never intended for Christian leadership to exercise such dominion over the laity. In fact, in Matthew 20:25-27, Jesus said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave".

Jesus is the God-man and Mary is His Mother

As a former Roman Catholic, I am well aware of the RCC teaching with respect to Mary as the mother of God. But you see, a created individual cannot be the mother of a divine person who did not originate in her womb. She certainly is the mother of Jesus who was very God and very man, but only Jesus the man originated in her womb. To be the mother of God it would have been necessary for all three persons of the trinity to originate in her womb. But then they wouldn't have been eternal beings; they would not have been God.

The authorized KJV, Jesus never addressed Mary as His mother. On the two occasions reported, Jesus called her "woman." The Bible calls her the "mother of Jesus," not the mother of God.

It was the fallacy of the various Marian doctrines that led me to begin questioning RCC teachings in all areas. When I read the entire New Testament and never found where Mary's body had been assumed into heaven, a red flag went up in my mind. Then, in a second reading of the N.T. I found the Bible identifying by name four blood brothers of our Lord and "sisters" as well, though unnamed. I noticed that Mary's cousin Elisabeth in her old age miraculously conceived her ONLY child, John the Baptist. The Word of God tells us Elisabeth gave birth "to a son." But it also tells us Mary gave birth to her "firstborn son." From all this I began to suspect that the RCC doctrine of Mary's cradle-to-the-grave virginity was a falsehood.

Psalms 69:8-9

"I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Since the latter verse is quoted in John 2:17, I knew both verses were prophetic. After that, I found Paul referring in Galations to "James, the Lord's brother," Historian, Eusebius mentioning both James and Jude as brothers of Jesus, and Jewish historian, Josephus, referring to "James, the brother of Jesus who was the Christ."

Goebels

Also:

Mary is not the "Mother of GOD"

Luke 1:32
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:”

Matthew 12:23
“And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?”

Matthew 15:22
“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.”

Matthew 20:30
“And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.”

Matthew 21:9
“And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.”

In these Scriptures it is clearly established that the nation of Israel expected their Messiah to derive – as prophesied - from the tribe of Judah and the house of David, thereby attributing fatherhood of the Messiah to David in accordance with their method of reckoning descent. But David cannot be called the father of God because of his relationship to the man Christ Jesus. Our Lord Himself preempted any possibility of that erroneous belief.

Matthew 22:42-46
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Parallel accounts of this episode are found in Mark 12: 35-37, and Luke 20:41-44.

In these Scriptures, our Lord has done what Roman Catholic apologists say may not be done. He has clearly drawn a line between the human nature and the eternal nature of Christ. He has clearly established the fact that David is NOT the father of God, because he is NOT the father of the second person of the blessed trinity. He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery – one the Jews of His day could not comprehend any better than the Roman Catholics or Christians of the 21st century.

This mystery of the two fused but separate natures manifest in Christ finds another reference in the following excerpt from the Gospel of John. When confronted by the Jews and constrained to identify himself, John the Baptist’s response included this interesting disclosure: “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.” (John 3:34) Certainly the Holy Spirit could not have been given to the Second Person of the trinity for He is part of that trinity. So the Holy Spirit that was given without measure was given only to the man Christ Jesus.

Because the Second Person of the blessed trinity is an eternal being having neither a beginning nor an ending, it was the man Christ Jesus who suffered as the second Adam on Calvary and died for the sins of the world. The Second Person of the trinity did not die, cannot die or be put to death. And it’s the man Christ Jesus – not the Second Person of the trinity - who is said Scripturally to be the one mediator between God and man. (1 Tim 2:5) He who is eternal, who could not and cannot die, could not be, and was not, born of the virgin.

No one disputes the fact that Mary is the mother of the human Jesus even though she was not the “supplier” of His human soul. Nor is there any question that the man Christ Jesus was created human in body, soul and spirit. What is disputed is the extension of the title “mother” to a divine nature that eternally existed and was not created in the womb of the virgin. A mother is only the mother of what originates within her womb. The second person of the blessed trinity did not originate in Mary’s body.

He is without beginning – has always existed – and has no mother.
(Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.) (Psalm 90:2) “Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.” (Psalm 93:2) “But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him,” (Psalm 103:17) “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.” (Psalm 106:48)

Conclusion: Jesus Christ the man is the son of Mary. The Second Person of the Trinity is her God, not her son, for He did not originate in her womb.

Pocari Sweat

the clansman wrote:

lads how do i oficialy leave the catholic church? i believe in god and jesus and that but the church...no. i dont agree that evrything they do is right. i dont like allmost worshiping a pope...in short i feel the way to heaven(if it is there) is not by doing what the church say.

any good reasons why i should not leave?

Streak through the vatican naked, with a pair of horns on yer head, or take a prayer mat to your local sunday service pledging allegiance to Allah, but whatever you do, make your own mind up, don't worry about the established church and what they think, its what you think yourself that counts.

smidgy

Goebels while I admire the effort of your post, your energy would be better used elsewhere,

Do you honestly think that Catholic theology is so weak that it cannot refute each and every point you make with truth and eloquence?

secret_squirrel

BrianCalgary wrote:

I would suggest going church shopping.

Alternatively try reading some of the literature on the subject and try finding God yourself.

You dont need to go to church to believe in God, Jesus, and the story told by the bible.

5uspect

smidgy wrote:

Goebels while I admire the effort of your post, your energy would be better used elsewhere,

Do you honestly think that Catholic theology is so weak that it cannot refute each and every point you make with truth and eloquence?

Truth? Blind faith is not truth. Big difference.

Excelsior

While this thread has shown three extremes:
a) Catholic- "My theology is strong enough to defeat yours. But I won't reveal it yet"
b) Evangelical- "Catholics do things we dont do. They KANT b CHRISTIANS!!1"
c) Secular- "Of course, in 2006, we can see your assumptions are utterly flawed."

I would like to point out that the Orthodox Church is the church with the right to claim 2000 year old history, (but all churches are part of the universal body of Christ). I would like to point out that the Cross of Christ frees us from all sin, including doctrinal error, which is good news for evangelicals and Catholics. And I would like to point out that a worldview that holds all metanarratives as suspect is indistinguishable from other metanarratives.

But to the original poster, leave the Catholic Church if you must. But do make it your business to thoroughly investigate Jesus. God is the point of all this effort- search for him!

5uspect

the flying spagetti monster is recruiting too...

Nevyn

all of the forums have a strict no recruiting policy

BrianCalgary

secret_squirrel wrote:

Alternatively try reading some of the literature on the subject and try finding God yourself.

You dont need to go to church to believe in God, Jesus, and the story told by the bible.

No but involvement in a local body gives you the opportunity to grow in your faith and people to give you support when needed and to give others your support when needed as well.

When my daughter was recently in hospital (she played goal last week, full recovery, thanks for the support from all here) our church family provided meals and emotional support when needed. We in turn gave a family from England, who we had never met but was referred by a colleague in England, a place to atsy for a night as they travelled from Kelowna to London.

Without our body of believers and being connected to them this kind of support would be impossible.

Sapien

Excelsior wrote:

And I would like to point out that a worldview that holds all metanarratives as suspect is indistinguishable from other metanarratives.

That's a bit of a bold statement! Not to mention a confusing one. I think all metanarratives, by necessity, must be distinguishable from each other. Perhaps you mean to say that the habit of incredulity towards metanarratives is itself a metanarrative? If so, I disagree.

GoldieBear

Lunoma wrote:

There actually is an official way of leaving. From what I recall, one has to write a letter to the parish where he or she was baptised stating that one want to detach from the RC Church. An ex-Catholic friend of mine did it and they just sent her a letter back ranting on about how she will go to hell and all this crap but in shorthand she was officially unbaptised.

You could always join a different church but in reality they are all very much the same. Some are more liberal than others but they are all Christian.

Good luck anyway!

I never heard of someone being unbaptised before, i know that it cant be repeated as its a universal sacrament, but as i said i never heard of it being revoked.

GoldieBear

BrianCalgary wrote:

No but involvement in a local body gives you the opportunity to grow in your faith and people to give you support when needed and to give others your support when needed as well.

When my daughter was recently in hospital (she played goal last week, full recovery, thanks for the support from all here) our church family provided meals and emotional support when needed. We in turn gave a family from England, who we had never met but was referred by a colleague in England, a place to atsy for a night as they travelled from Kelowna to London. Your faith in yourself and human nature is strengthened

Without our body of believers and being connected to them this kind of support would be impossible.

It like the sermon i heard this sunday about the mustard seed and the allegory that the Kingdom of God starts off really small but grows through people showing common support and curtesy to others. we all have our small part to play and it feels good to give a hand to others from time to time. I was in an accident in January and my church were brilliant and really supportive (although its quite small). Its during the hard times you learn to appreciate who your neighbour (in both faith and in the physical sence.

Lunoma

robindch wrote:

> Then they sent her a hilarious and rather amusing rambling letter
> saying that her body will burn in the fires of hell, etc. Actually,
> three full pages in total of washed up crap!

Out of interest -- if this letter is floating about, is there any chance that you could scan this, blur out the names of the church and your friend (and any other info that might identify who's involved), and put it on the internet somewhere? I'd certainly be fascinated to see it...

Sorry Robin, she felt she needed to burn it so now it is just ashes! Sorry!

Lunoma

GoldieBear wrote:

I never heard of someone being unbaptised before, i know that it cant be repeated as its a universal sacrament, but as i said i never heard of it being revoked.

Only under certain circumstances can it be revoked. One such way is proclaiming to speak out ill of the church. My friend sent them two letters. The first one was asking politely could she leave and they refused. Then in the second letter, she had no option but to tell them that if they won't remove her name she will speak out publicly against the church. Fearing not be attacked, they removed her name. There are many other circumstances. The word probably isn't unbaptised but excommunicated.

GoldieBear

Thanks for the info.:)

Excelsior

It is simply wrong to suggest that baptism can be revoked and it has never happened.

robindch

> she felt she needed to burn it so now it is just ashes! Sorry!

Oh well!

robindch

> It is simply wrong to suggest that baptism can be revoked and it
> has never happened.

I don't think anybody's suggesting that catholic apostates should claim that baptism never happened, but more that the church shouldn't be claiming that it's got 95% of the country on its books (when most of them were put there when they'd no choice in the matter) and then go on to get all bent-out-of-shape when these folks ask to be removed.

I wonder what would happen if, like a lot of other societies, people had to renew their formal membership of the catholic church ever year...

arctic lemur

Just one question. What if you request to leave etc. and the Church dismisses it/does not acknowledge that you want to leave. What is the next step then?

Nevyn

You send the letter to the parish you were baptised in and if that does not get any were try the diocies and what ever bishop's office it assocated with it.