EU says: driving unaccompanied is illegal

unkel

Article

Does that mean that 400,000 Irish drivers will be off the road soon unless they drive accompanied by a licensed driver?

Surely it would take years to get all (well most, not all will pass) of those drivers through the driving test?

Stephen

its illegal under irish law anyways (besides those with 2nd provisionals) and that doesn't stop anyone.

cargrouch

Calling Stark, Big Nelly, and <^>oo<^> from the "Gardai with the road manners of a pig" thread!:D

I think enforcing this sort of stuff would be perfect for the garda reserve. In the grand scheme of things I wouldn't like to see real gardai diverting resources to tackle it.

Stark

In a separate ruling the EU yesterday found that Ireland was in breach of EU law by allowing unqualified drivers on their second provisional licence to drive unaccompanied.

Ah balls. Hopefully this doesn't hit me before my test is due.

Alun

In a separate ruling the EU yesterday found that Ireland was in breach of EU law by allowing unqualified drivers on their second provisional licence to drive unaccompanied.

[sarcasm mode]
Yeah, I mean who'd have thought it ... allowing people who haven't passed their driving test to drive as if they had is actually illegal. Unbelieveble what strange revolutionary ideas these crazy Europeans have.
[/sarcasm mode]

unkel

Stephen wrote:

its illegal under irish law anyways (besides those with 2nd provisionals) and that doesn't stop anyone.

True, but the EU might have the power / means (penalties, etc.) to enforce it?

jhegarty

unkel wrote:

True, but the EU might have the power / means (penalties, etc.) to enforce it?

they can't stop VRT , so would be suprised...

and I don't see the goverment putting 400,000 off the road, when they can't offer a test in a year , 18 months before an election...

unkel

jhegarty wrote:

I don't see the goverment putting 400,000 off the road

Several hundred thousands cars were taken off the road, the last time the EU pointed the finger here (NCT)

el tel

Does this mean there'll be no more really really bad learner drivers on their own attempting to negotiate the mini roundabout on my street? What will I do for entertainment? It has given me so much pleasure to watch them not give way, stall, drive over the roundabout and then frantically try to straighten the wheel after they make their turn - all at 2mph! Bloody inconsiderate EU laws.

Wolverine_1999

"How old are you?"
17
"Did you pass your theory test?"
Yes
"Have you gotten driving lessons?"
No
"Have you ever driven a car before?"
No
"Right here is your license, try not to crash in to too many cars!"

layke

On the NCT bit, the Gov made a killing of the revenue, car salemen were deligted that everyone was forced to buy new cars... VRT for the Gov too. A real winner for them.

If they did the whole provional thing tomorrow, the country would come to a standstill. We simply do not have the public transport resources to accomodate the masses.

It will have to be phased out.

Darando

layke wrote:

It will have to be phased out.

Last time this popped up i.e having to drive with licence on you and that driving alone would be enforced there was up-roar over country coming to a standstill etc... agree on that and kinda unfair to suddenly enforce it.

However the government could have come out and said "Ok test waiting list is about say 14 months (generous) - so 14 months from now the law will be enforced" - simple !!! You are given the grace period to apply and do a test but if you fail tough - you shouldnt be driving alone.

How long ago was that - Jan 1st 2003 I believe.

Just another issue that nobody will step up to the plate and deal with - that includes no matter who is in power - will probably take EU to do it.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

I think the EU are trying to get the whole 2nd provisional thing removed.
they are saying that no provisional liscences driver should be allowed drive un-accompanied by law.

Stark

Wolverine_1999 wrote:

"How old are you?"
17
"Did you pass your theory test?"
Yes
"Have you gotten driving lessons?"
No
"Have you ever driven a car before?"
No
"Right here is your license, try not to crash in to too many cars!"

It's harder to do that nowadays though due to insurance restrictions. I had to get a shedload of lessons before I could get insured on a car.

Darando wrote:

However the government could have come out and said "Ok test waiting list is about say 14 months (generous) - so 14 months from now the law will be enforced" - simple !!! You are given the grace period to apply and do a test but if you fail tough - you shouldnt be driving alone.

Not a bad idea. I know they were toying with the idea of kicking people off the road completely if they fail, but that would be grossly unfair if the person couldn't drive at all for 14 months and was forced to do their retest after a 14 month lapse.

pontovic

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need to clear the massive backlog of people waiting to do their test before they implement any of this. Upto 14 months waiting for a licence, thats rediculous ! They have been talking about clearing the backlog now for a year and nothing much has happened.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever thought of going up North or over to the UK to do their test to get it sooner, so they could get their full licence over there and exchange it over here ?

Alun

pontovic wrote:

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever thought of going up North or over to the UK to do their test to get it sooner, so they could get their full licence over there and exchange it over here ?

As has already been pointed out a gazillion times before on here, including a recent thread started by drde, this isn't a legal option. You have to be resident in the UK to be able to get a provisional licence there, and from what I can tell, yes they do actually check. You could always move there permanently for a year, do your test and come back, I suppose.

prospect

I say take them all off the road, think of the effect removing 400K cars will have on traffic!

Stephen

They must be actually making a dent in the backlog - when I did my driving test in Kilkenny the waiting time was 56 weeks. Its now 31 weeks for the same centre, according to drivingtest.ie.

MrPudding

pontovic wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need to clear the massive backlog of people waiting to do their test before they implement any of this. Upto 14 months waiting for a licence, thats rediculous ! They have been talking about clearing the backlog now for a year and nothing much has happened.

You also have to take into consideration that of the 400k on provo licenses only 125k are actually waiting for a test. The rest of them presumably can't be arsed so if we wait for them we will be waiting forever.

MrP

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I hope the EU forces the governement to do something about this soon.

400k provisonal drivers on the road is just crazy.

ambrose :cool:

Stark

Stephen wrote:

They must be actually making a dent in the backlog - when I did my driving test in Kilkenny the waiting time was 56 weeks. Its now 31 weeks for the same centre, according to drivingtest.ie.

Seems to be just that centre though. Other centres still show an increase in the waiting time.

jimmycrackcorm

Lets look at a few "facts"

Today having a provisional licence and tomorrow having a full licence won't a good safe driver make!

Driving isn't that difficult. It doesn't require any extraordinary special skills that many people do not possess.

if it wasn't for our intransigent civil servant driver testers, many provisional dirvers would be on their full licence simply from having availed of a test facility.

Just as many of us full licence drivers would fail our tests by making a simple mistake during a test.

Safe drivers are experienced drivers.

If you disagree wiht my sentiments perhaps you could explain why introducing the NCT hasn't reduced accident rates on the basis of making cars more roadworthy (or is it just down to nobody collecting statistics on worn wipers causing accidents???).

If we were to introduce regular retesting of our full licence holders then safety would improve due to a more aware attitude to driving principles e.g. learning to observe restricted speed limits so as to have it ingrained for the test.


The whole blame prvisional drivers and blame speeders etc is a con. Why do we never hear why accidents happen - what were the actual causes? is it out of protection of the parties involved? Take for example th instance of the grandmother this week killed in donegal whilst laying flowers for a previous RTA vicitim. We'll never be told how a car managed to hit her... What was the exact cause and can we learn from it???

Nuttzz

Wolverine_1999 wrote:

"How old are you?"
17
"Did you pass your theory test?"
Yes
"Have you gotten driving lessons?"
No
"Have you ever driven a car before?"
No
"Right here is your license, try not to crash in to too many cars!"

you cant get lessons with a licence....

ninty9er

Nuttzz wrote:

you cant get lessons with a licence....

Don't be ridiculous no driving instructor is going to turn down business that already knows how to drive and wants to upskill

Stark

The poster made a typo by the looks of it. I believe he meant to say "you can't get lessons without a licence".

Vegeta

Ok if 400,000 people were banned/prevented from driving in the morning for driving on their own (worst case example coming up) We'll say half of them have their own cars and indeed drive on thier own so 200,000 cars stop paying road tax and NCT fees cos they cant use their cars anymore. Does the government really want to throw away that revenue.

EDIT: IS anyone here a garda, are you given instructions to let provisional drivers go or are you told be strict.

For all those saying the EU should force them, how exactly will they do that, put EU police on the roads. Irish gardai are not on the roads enough so they can hardly enforce it anyway. So if the EU do force more Irish gardai on the roads

zilog_jones

Vegeta wrote:

For all those saying the EU should force them, how exactly will they do that, put EU police on the roads.

I dunno, Europol trainees? I don't think the EU thought this out too well, especially with regards to countries with awful administration of driving tests like Ireland.

MrPudding

Vegeta wrote:

For all those saying the EU should force them, how exactly will they do that, put EU police on the roads. Irish gardai are not on the roads enough so they can hardly enforce it anyway. So if the EU do force more Irish gardai on the roads

They will probably levy fines against the country. Of course you know who pays those.

MrP

Vegeta

MrPudding wrote:

They will probably levy fines against the country. Of course you know who pays those.

MrP

to fine the country they need proof people are driving alone on provisionals
to get proof Irish Gardai have to catch people and that's where i see the problem

You're right if caught we'll probably end up paying the fines

Stark

The thing is if they make driving alone on a second provisional illegal then the gardaí won't need to pull someone over to confirm if they're driving illegally. They can just look to see if the car has L-plates and look to see if the person driving is on their own.

Of course the person driving could be a fully licenced driver who couldn't be bothered taking down their L-plates after their offspring was in the car, but that's not something they should be doing. It basically defeats the purpose of the L-plate system which says "This car is being operated by a learner driver, therefore is a potential hazard, show caution/bully as appropriate".

prospect

Stark wrote:

"show caution/bully as appropriate".

LOL

Anan1

Stark wrote:

The thing is if they make driving alone on a second provisional illegal then the gardaí won't need to pull someone over to confirm if they're driving illegally. They can just look to see if the car has L-plates and look to see if the person driving is on their own.

Of course the person driving could be a fully licenced driver who couldn't be bothered taking down their L-plates after their offspring was in the car, but that's not something they should be doing. It basically defeats the purpose of the L-plate system which says "This car is being operated by a learner driver, therefore is a potential hazard, show caution/bully as appropriate".

As far as I can see, learners tend to drive with L-plates until they themselves feel comfortable with their driving. They then either do the test or ditch the plates - either way, no L-plates!

Stark

How do you know they're learners if they have no L-plates?

Anan1

Stark wrote:

How do you know they're learners if they have no L-plates?

That's my point.;)

dermot_sheehan

Vegeta wrote:

to fine the country they need proof people are driving alone on provisionals
to get proof Irish Gardai have to catch people and that's where i see the problem

You're right if caught we'll probably end up paying the fines

They don't need proof Irish drivers are driving unaccompanied, all they can do is sit back in their offices in Brussels and have a look at the Irish Road Traffic legislation which allows this on a second provisional. They in response to a complaint from Prontias DeRossa MEP (Drivers/Voters in Dublin take note of this) had a look and felt that it was in contravention of the EU Driving Licences Directive. If they don't get a satisfactory response from Ireland, they take us to the European Court of Justice. If we fail to change the law after the ECJ rules against us, the state gets fined.

dermot_sheehan

Stark wrote:

How do you know they're learners if they have no L-plates?

L-plates don't mean much. I have a full licence and drive around a car with L-plates on since one of the other people who routinely drive the car has a provisional and its too much bother to keep putting them up/taking them down.

If they really want to enforce this, they should simply automatically issue a 6 months ban to anyone caught driving unaccompanied. This along with random checks (at Tax disc checkpoints), along with rigourus enforcement of existing Road Traffic laws, would result in people eventually getting caught.


If anyone wants to act the muppet and drive while banned, they should be jailed. Simple.

optiplexgx270

Meh without L plates im just the next car and no one is any the wiser so not bothered if it was law now or in the future.

Alun

Right, so now we have the ludicrous situation where we have people who aren't learning who do display L plates, and those that actually are learning who don't display L plates. That's really logical