How do you view The USA?

Archeron

Having looked at a lot of threads on boards, there appears to be a lot of quite strong emotions regarding the US, and its role in the world. I know that certainly in my lifetime, my opinions and the opinions of most around me have changed significantly, be that for the better or worse.

The question is, without going into specifics about wars, or economics, or policies etc, how do you view the USA?

Personally, I see it as a great country with great people. I myself have never met an American person I didnt get on with. It appears to be quite antagonistic, and quite intolerant (from a governmental perspective) of not only other countries, but pretty much the rest of the world. I think it seems obsessed with violence and consumerism and one-up-manship.(I'm Basing that on what I've seen on TV, I've never been to the US). I think the country has an amazing history, and whats been achieved in its relatively short existance is quite remarkable. On a world stage, I would put the US in the top category now of countries I would consider aggressors, and I would be fearful of what could possibly happen globally if things keep up as they are now.

I am no expert on any of the above subjects and a lot of what I said above is probably incorrect and I'm sure many will be able to prove that. But that is just my opinion on the US, from my very small minded point of view.
What's your opinions?

Dades

The USA is an enormous nation with a multitude of different demographs. Therefore it is impossible to say "I like/dislike Americans with any degree of accuracy.

That said, I don't like their foreign policy, and I fear the spread of Christian nuts.

Archeron

The Atheist wrote:

The USA is an enormous nation with a multitude of different demographs. Therefore it is impossible to say "I like/dislike Americans with any degree of accuracy.

That said, I don't like their foreign policy, and I fear the spread of Christian nuts.

Fair point. The reason I say "the USA" as whole is to avoid going into specifics about who/where/what in particular you like/dislike because I imagine that would probably start to turn into a conspiracy theory or USA bashing or whatever, and boards already has lots of threads devoted to those things .Oh, and to try and get an overiew of how people feel towards the country as a whole. I know its a very general question, but I cant think of another way of asking this without opening a Pandoras box of heated opinions.

Sleepy

I feel sorry for most sane Americans tbh. At the moment it's a shining example of how democracy can simply be a form of mob-rule.

Archeron

Archeron wrote:

Having looked at a lot of threads on boards, there appears to be a lot of quite strong emotions regarding the US, and its role in the world. I know that certainly in my lifetime, my opinions and the opinions of most around me have changed significantly, be that for the better or worse.

The question is, without going into specifics about wars, or economics, or policies etc, how do you view the USA?

For me, its about Hyprocrisy and empty promises.

We were all raised with the propaganda (Hollywood, Western Media, books etc) that the US was the knight in shining armour protecting the "free world" from all aggressors. The US were the good guys. And for the most part, despite a few upsets from the CIA (Bay of Pigs etc), we believed them. [Although with time and research in many western conflicts I've since learnt the difference in "facts"/"assumptions" accepted by most people, and what actually happened]

And so we have the advance to the last decade. A fast slide away from the promises it made to us as we grew up. That disillusionment is part of my issue with the US. Even now, the majority of movies we see, the majority of the media etc protray the US actions in the best of lights. The press releases of the US administration protrays all oponents as being "bad", like the term "the Axis of Evil". (I don't particularly disagree with them as such, but calling a nation evil, and insulting them in his speaches doesn't sound very diplomatic to me)

Iraq was probably the biggest change. Afghanistan was almost acceptable since we saw a clear link between Sept 11 and that country. However, the amount of bull**** and coverups in the lead up, and during the Iraq Invasion, just showed us how much our faith had been displaced (Considering Iraq was cleared by a US commission about involvement in Sept 11, and Iraq is still protrayed as an aggressor). And since then, the hyprocrisy of criticising Russia about freedom (Russian freedom, not Chechnya) considering the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo Bay were brought in, just keep adding to that.

For me this isn't about Americans themselves. As individuals they're pretty much the same as anyone else in the West. This is about the US government and their actions abroad since Sept 11. This is about the worlds superpower constantly flexing its muscles, and its supposed "policing" of the world. During the Cold War, the US were able to act in a diplomatic way, but since Bush rose to power, they seem to reach for the rifle a bit too easily.

ChityWest

Anytimes I have been I have had nothing but positive experiences (apart from having to go through customs twice while americans go through once).

Having said that the amount of gun crime over there is scary. If I lived there I would definitely buy a gun & keep it loaded. The fact that you can take a wrong turn and end up in a VERY VERY nasty neighbourhood is also scary.

All of the people I met there or even americans in europe (apart from one bartending bitch-thief from hell) were excellent - very down to earth and friendly/intelligent (except for their collective blindspot re israel/palestine).

Generallly speaking the particular states there that I have been to there are stunning - absolutely beautiful. Their service industry could teach the rest of the world on how to treat paying customers.

InFront

I have never visited the place myself and dont see myself deciding to do so anytime soon. But most Americans Ive met are warm and chilled out people, Im sure thyre just like everyone here, although the Americans on my course are much harder workers than the Irish. I would be too if I were paying circa 12 grand per year:eek: .

Like one of the above posters, I think many have moved beyond the image of the USA as a legendary place of democratic and peacful ideals and now hold a much more realistic view of the place. Personally I feel that its foreign policy makes a mockery of the international community, or has done so in the past. So much of its social and political structures and ideas frustrate me. But those opinions get enough boards-time and I dont think thats the point of this post.

So America, its just normal really, but has lost a lot of its shine/ appeal at least in my opinion.

Ivan

No, no, no. This is just all wrong. How can you dislike the american government (which I think we can all agree we do) its foreign policies and not dislike the people who voted it in?

To say "I dislike the American government but not the people" is in my mind, a contradiction. I have met a few Americans, some of whom annoyed the crap out of me and some of whom I would invite to marry my sister, but the point is they should be and are, respsonible for their governments actions.

This is one of the fundamental points of a democratic government, if the majority of people do not like what their government is doing, then they can vote to have it removed. Simple and effective.

So clearly the majority of americans do like what the American government are doing and thats just wrong. Now, I'm not suggesting we launch a jihad or something, but I think its high time people stopped with the whole "blanket defense of the American people" as if they weren't just as bad as their government.

Personally, I will make a case by case decision about any American I might meet and decide whether I like or just tolerate them but I am certainly not about to call their whole nation of people, blameless, for what the majority of their people are responsible for.

I really hope this doesnt come across as inflammatory as its really the way I feel and not just meant as a troll.

InFront

Ivan wrote:

No, no, no. This is just all wrong. How can you dislike the american government (which I think we can all agree we do) its foreign policies and not dislike the people who voted it in?

To say "I dislike the American government but not the people" is in my mind, a contradiction....

This is one of the fundamental points of a democratic government, if the majority of people do not like what their government is doing, then they can vote to have it removed. Simple and effective.

So clearly the majority of americans do like what the American government are doing and thats just wrong.

Reading your post Im not even going to argue with that word Jihad which you used completely inappropriately... I know you werent trying to antagonise but many people, I would say most Muslims, understand Jihad to mean something completely different. Sorry if thats being pedantic.:)

Regarding your post, I agree that we cannot seperate the USA and their rulers the voters gave them power. But I cannot remember hearing of any US referendum during the Bush term (open to correction on this) but certainly none on a foreign policy. So while the people put Bush in, they cannot be responsible for everything that he does. Look at both of his Presidential election results, neither time did he win the support of all of the people, or nearly so. Many Americans are disssatisfied with him.

Also, I try never make the mistake of discussing politics with American friends or fellow students. Inevitably I will disagree with them, and when I say that I enjoy their company I refer to most Americans I have spoken to for more than 5 minutes (maximum 20 in my life!) and disregarding their socio-political upbringing.

Ivan

Ivan wrote:

No, no, no. This is just all wrong. How can you dislike the american government (which I think we can all agree we do) its foreign policies and not dislike the people who voted it in?

Ivan, I dislike the Irish government so does that mean I dislike the Irish people, myself included? No, it doesn't.

This is one of the fundamental points of a democratic government, if the majority of people do not like what their government is doing, then they can vote to have it removed. Simple and effective.

Perhaps it is. I don't really involve myself with politics as such. I don't reall know that much about the alternatives to the Bush administration in the US, nor do I really know all that much about the alternatives here in Ireland to the present government.

However, when I have looked at the alternatives here in Ireland, (with my very very basic knowledge) I consider them all just as bad. We can vote them out of office at the end of their term, but who do you vote for if, they're all the same?

I have a feeling that the US is different though. There are apparently better alternatives to the Bush Admin. Apparently. Just from the bulletin boards that I've read I've seen many opinons of those. But the crux of the matter is that any government will serve till the end of their term. Unless they do something really really awful, there's nothing you can do about it. Perhaps you know if there is?

I really hope this doesnt come across as inflammatory as its really the way I feel and not just meant as a troll.

I didn't see anything trollish/inflammatory in the post.

tbh

I've been over and back a good few times with work, and, at the risk of generalising, I like guys who voted Kerry, and don't like (or at least, am uncomfortable around) guys who voted Bush.

I'm struck by how overtly religious a lot of people from both sides have become, I'm also more and more aware of a schism between the liberals and the neo-cons, A few years ago, people (in my limited experience, anyway) didn't take sides as much as they do now.

rsynnott

It is a nation which is slowly going mad.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

the end of yet another great and powerful empire is near....
history does repeat itself.
from before the Romans to the end of time... all great empires fall and this one is slowly turning.

fly_agaric

Ivan wrote:

No, no, no. This is just all wrong. How can you dislike the american government (which I think we can all agree we do) its foreign policies and not dislike the people who voted it in.
To say "I dislike the American government but not the people" is in my mind, a contradiction. I have met a few Americans, some of whom annoyed the crap out of me and some of whom I would invite to marry my sister, but the point is they should be and are, respsonible for their governments actions.

In all fairness, it was hardly an overwhelming and unequivocal majority that voted Bush in for the 2nd time (I know, they should have known better) and a majority actually voted for Gore the 1st time.

Ivan

fly_agaric wrote:

In all fairness, it was hardly an overwhelming and unequivocal majority that voted Bush in for the 2nd time (I know, they should have known better) and a majority actually voted for Gore the 1st time.

And yet nothing was done about it...

Thats the point though, isnt it? Clinton had an affair, and lied about it under oath. Which lets face it, was none of the American population's business, but rather between him and his wife.

Now, bush launches an attack on 2 foreign countries, against targets that they once armed. All the while, citing "weapons of mass destruction", as the justification. Later we discover that there are none, that he lied to the american people and to their congress. And yet nothing is done about it. The fact of the matter is, in a democracy, not voting for someone isnt enough when he is raping and pillaging his way across the world.

As for the Irish Government, I think its an accepted fact that in any country at any given time, somebody hates their government. however, in this instance, its a difference between hating your government for a shoddy medical system or for bombing middle eastern countries back in to the stone age, for no justifiable reason.

I think we can all agree, there is a slight difference...

Apologies for the incorrect usuage of Jihad, I sometimes forget that I am on the politics board and as such a dramatic license is neither necessary nor acceptable.

fly_agaric

Ivan wrote:

Now, bush launches an attack on 2 foreign countries, against targets that they once armed. All the while, citing "weapons of mass destruction", as the justification. Later we discover that there are none, that he lied to the american people and to their congress. And yet nothing is done about it. The fact of the matter is, in a democracy, not voting for someone isnt enough when he is raping and pillaging his way across the world.

As for the Irish Government, I think its an accepted fact that in any country at any given time, somebody hates their government. however, in this instance, its a difference between hating your government for a shoddy medical system or for bombing middle eastern countries back in to the stone age, for no justifiable reason.

I think we can all agree, there is a slight difference...

What is your average [not rich, not important] anti-Bush American (perhaps as high as 50 % of the population even before things went pear-shaped in Iraq) to do about it?

The issues are much more important than those irking people who dislike the current govt. in Ireland, but in a democracy, what else can you do but make your displeasure (maybe anger is better) known by telling politicians how you feel (by protest, personally, or through your ballot).

Do you want them to stage an insurrection (best of luck against the national guard + various local police forces with arsenals that wouldn't disgrace some countries' militaries), assasinate Bush (sorry CIA goons LOL), what exactly??

Ivan wrote:

...I sometimes forget that I am on the politics board and as such a dramatic license is neither necessary nor acceptable

Then you really shouldn't be conflating Afghanistan and Iraq for effect either.

EDIT: This is Humanities BTW...

Zombrex

Archeron wrote:

I know its a very general question, but I cant think of another way of asking this without opening a Pandoras box of heated opinions.

The simple fact of the matter is that people make generalisation about everyone.

Most Irish people don't hate Americans, they hate the loud silly embarrasing ignorant patronising Americans. The thing is they only notice the loud silly embarrashing ignorant patronising Americans and that becomes what they think Americans are like.

The whole Bush thing just feeds into that. Deep down we know not all Americans voted for Bush. But you can bet a lot of the loud silly embarrashing ignorant patronising Americans did (or at least we assume they did) so that again feeds into the general background idea that Americans are loud silly embarrashing ignorant patronising people who voted in a loud silly embrasshing ignorant patronising President.

Is this the fault of Americans in general? Of course not. As you point out some of the best stuff comes from America, and some of the most harsh criticism of the type of Americans we hate also comes from America.

But this isn't a rational decision. When you are on the bus stuck behind some fat gobsh*t from Texas stating (loudly) his amazment that we have modern cars over here its hard to say to yourself "remember The Simpsons, remember The Simpsons". Instead you go "f**king Americans" and roll your eyes.

DOLEMAN

American people I like.

But... democracy is supposed to truely represent the people. The government represents the people. The people voted in the government. So attacking the population is the same as attacking the government...

I have little pity for the US's current situation. The people created it and have set themselves up for the fall... but saying all that, the Americans I have met, while they tend to be a little bit annoying, they are generally good people.

But IMO America is the biggest evil in the world. It scares me. Their bull**** annoys me.

I just hope they can learn to educate themselves properly and open their minds before it's too late...

Ivan

fly_agaric wrote:

The issues are much more important than those irking people who dislike the current govt. in Ireland,

That was my point, I was addressing someone elses comment that people here hate our government and yet do nothing about it.

fly_agaric wrote:

The issues are much more important than those irking people who dislike the current govt. in Ireland, but in a democracy, what else can you do but make your displeasure (maybe anger is better) known by telling politicians how you feel (by protest, personally, or through your ballot).

A protest of any kind, would be a start...

fly_agaric wrote:

Do you want them to stage an insurrection (best of luck against the national guard + various local police forces with arsenals that wouldn't disgrace some countries' militaries), assasinate Bush (sorry CIA goons LOL), what exactly??

Isnt that the reason they have such lax gun laws? But no, I'm not for a second suggesting this. Even if I thought they could pull it off, what I am suggesting is that the "honest, generous and hardworking" people of america would get off their holes and actually participate in their countries workings. Rather than let the growing population of religious/neo-conservative/right-wingers run it for them.

fly_agaric wrote:

Then you really shouldn't be conflating Afghanistan and Iraq for effect either.

EDIT: This is Humanities BTW...

I think you'll find conflation of Afghanistan and Iraq for empasis within this debate, is significantly more reasonable than my incorrect usage of the word Jihad. And its effectiveness in this debate is brought about only by the actions of America, within these countries. So, I really dont see how they are in any way, similar...

But again, my mistake, the forum is Humanities but the point remains the same.


One of my biggest problems with America (aside from the whole 2 party system) is the hatred some Liberal and Republican people, have for each other. The simple fact is, their countries best interests should be at heart but that doesnt seem to be the case. What seems to be their main priority, is their own political agenda. This follows down, to even the most mundane of Republicans and Liberals, to the point that you even have biased news. Which are necessary, not only for the fact that news is a business over there (dont even get me started about the problems with that) but also because people with politically charged viewpoints cant even tolerate listening to the other "sides" viewpoint.

I dont know about you, but that just makes me ill...

tj-music.com

Archeron wrote:

Having looked at a lot of threads on boards, there appears to be a lot of quite strong emotions regarding the US, and its role in the world. I know that certainly in my lifetime, my opinions and the opinions of most around me have changed significantly, be that for the better or worse.

What's your opinions?

I remember when I was a child everything American from chewing gum to films was great and admired. Now, when you talk to people nobody seems to like them anymore.

Moby and Art Garfunkel even apologised for the politics of their leader.

I think that it is not good to generalise. I am convinced there are a lot of nice Americans out there

fly_agaric

Ivan wrote:

That was my point, I was addressing someone elses comment that people here hate our government and yet do nothing about it.

Sorry for going over old ground. I missed that line in Klaz's post.

Ivan wrote:

A protest of any kind, would be a start...

There have been many protests (maybe not enough?) in the US against Bush and his presidency. And the war(s).
It hasn't done much good.

Ivan wrote:

what I am suggesting is that the "honest, generous and hardworking" people of america would get off their holes and actually participate in their countries workings. Rather than let the growing population of religious/neo-conservative/right-wingers run it for them.

I don't know how active the people who are *not* religious/neo-conservative/right-wingers are.

I've never lived in the US. I suppose we'll have to see what happens the next time there are some elections there. The mid-term ones must be soon.

It's funny - this debate over how much the American people as a collective are to blame for the evils of the govt. (and the excesses of American capitalism) is like a twisted mirror-image of the ones where people try to weigh up how much of the burden an average muslim who is not a fanatic bears for their faith being used as the foundation of a violent ideology of terrorists.

How much of the responsibility does your average apathetic American who is not a religious/neo-conservative/right-winger/uber-capitalist bear for the situation in the US today?

It's very hard to pin a collective guilt on such a large and diverse group of people.

When it becomes apparent that a large majority of Americans are religious/neo-conservative/right-winger/uber-capitalist/warmonger nuts then I'd accept blaming the American people as a whole. I don't think were there yet. There is hope.

Ivan wrote:

One of my biggest problems with America (aside from the whole 2 party system) is the hatred some Liberal and Republican people, have for each other.

I have the impresssion (health-warning - again I don't have any first hand knowledge) this is much, much worse since Bush got in.

Wouldn't that in itself suggest the depth of anger and despair that people on the other side of the political divide feel about their powerlessness in the face of the various disasters of the Bush presidency?