German vs Irish Rail - the nitpick bits

Chris_533976

Just thought this was interesting, pulled from Wikipedia Just goes to show how much they think of over there.

Now I know Irish Rail will never be as good as the high speed ICE, but this is interesting.

* Most seats have an audio minijack, allowing passengers to plug in headphones and choose from about 7 music/entertainment channels and radio stations. Basic headphones can be purchased on the trains.
* On some ICE trains, there is at least one (usually 1st class) carriage where individual seats are equipped with LCD screens, built into the backrest of the seat in front. Usually there are two video channels to choose from, which typically show news or Bahn TV programs. There are no speakers, but the corresponding audio is available via the audio minijack (see above).
* The vast majority of ICE trains have power outlets for electrical devices, such as laptops, on all seats. On ICE2 trains, these are located under the tray tables. In the other ICE train types, they are located between seats just above the floor. Some 45 units of the 220-train fleet are not equipped with power sockets on every seat. These trains are currently undergoing a modernization program.
* An electronic display above each seat indicates the locations between which the seat has been reserved. Passengers without reservations are permitted to take seats with a blank display, or seats with no reservation on the current section.
* At both ends of ICE-T and ICE3 trains there is a passenger compartment (one end 1st and the other end 2nd class) with a view of the tracks, through a transparent glass wall separating the compartment from the driver's cabin. In special circumstances the driver can make the wall opaque by the press of a button.
* There is a compartment with a play area for children.
* Bicycles are not permitted on any ICE trains.
* All ICE trains have repeater carriages. These amplifiers greatly enhance mobile phone reception by taking the signals from within the car to the outside (and vice versa). These carriages are marked with a symbol depicting a mobile phone.
* There are also silent carriages where laptops, mobile phones and other "noisy" equipment should not be used. These carry a sticker displaying a whispering symbol.
* Three specially-built washing-bays for ICE trains exist at Hamburg-Eidelstedt, Frankfurt-Höchst and München Hbf (Munich main station)

bryanw

This does sound very interesting, it is really the little things that make the ride more enjoyable.

I don't think it it would be a huge job for IE to implement some of the features though. Maybe the earphone jacks, with the music/radio channels would be nice. They could also put wi-fi on the trains (esp. CityGold).

TBH though, you would really need a higher demand for (intercity) rail in Ireland before we get things like that!

bk

bryanw wrote:

I don't think it it would be a huge job for IE to implement some of the features though. Maybe the earphone jacks, with the music/radio channels would be nice. They could also put wi-fi on the trains (esp. CityGold).

Well they have just bought and are introducing new intercity carriages and they don't have any of these features.

The one that particularly annoys me is that the new carriages don't have a power point for each seat. This would be very simple to do, many people have laptops or potable DVD players nowadays and a power point would greatly help. Then you wouldn't need the LCD screens, etc as most passengers would be supplying their own entertainment equipment.

bryanw wrote:

TBH though, you would really need a higher demand for (intercity) rail in Ireland before we get things like that!

There is a very high demand for intercity in Ireland, they have just spent millions on new carriages, but haven't really done anything interesting with them.

MarkoP11

The new Cork train has the fancy seat reservations, http://www.platform11.org/images/CDE/reservations.jpg

The first class has the in seat toys but not the video

Travelling in the extreme front of a coach above 100 mph would not be allowed in Ireland since we follow UK regulations

The mobile phone issue possibly relates to the problems encountered with high speed trains and GSM, TGV has similar problems. GSM was designed to cope with walking speeds not 270kph

All Irish intercity trains can carry bikes.

There are custom washing plants at Cork, Heuston and will be installed at Port Laois. There also is the cool side washer that can be used from a platform

bryanw

bk wrote:

bryanw wrote:

TBH though, you would really need a higher demand for (intercity) rail in Ireland before we get things like that!

There is a very high demand for intercity in Ireland, they have just spent millions on new carriages, but haven't really done anything interesting with them.

Maybe I should have used a better word than "demand". What I meant was ... IE have to create a better market amongst the public, because once the motorways are finished they will have to compete, and currently Inter City doesn't offer a "brilliant" service, especially with regards to time and speed. Also, I think there should be a lot more investment in rail, even a move away from diesel altogether, the network isn't huge and the oil won't last forever. The price doesn't seem to be coming down anytime soon either.

I don't think the little things would be that hard to add to the new trains (or even the older ones) - here's our chance to be innovative and add some comfort accessories!

---

p.s. I am aware - motorways, cars use petrol etc. blah, blah, blah

Transport21 Fan

bryanw wrote:

This does sound very interesting, it is really the little things that make the ride more enjoyable.

Yes, like the train drivers actually driving the trains...

SeanW

The above is all so true, German railways really do kick tail. I remeber about 2 years ago on a short holiday to mainland Europe I twice had the pleasure of using the German long-distance Deutsche Bahn railways (in addition to the vast and fully integrated networks of public transport in the main cities).

The ICE trains are very comfortable, even the 2nd class section is like a rolling palace. They have trash cans built in to every table, which is really nice, I think they have pull down shades at all the windows if desired, and the BordRestaurant is very, very good. In additio to all the above facilities, the interior decor is, well, palatial.

It is true that the ICE does not carry bikes but the IC does. The IC is another long distance service provided by DB, it does not have anything resembling the facilities of the ICE but is cheaper and compares favourably to Irish rail Intercity.

The fares on the German railways are quite reasonable, I travelled from Berlin to Amsterdam on a Sunday morning for €84 one way! A journey at the same time on Irish Rail from Dublin to Edgeworthstown costs €26 one way! (on a train with noone else on it if it's a 29K).

It is true that CIE/Irish Rail has a lot to learn from Deutsche Bahn, but as T21Fan points out they have to work on some basics first like:
1: Train drivers that actually drive the trains ...
2: Proper allocation of resources
3: Not throwing out perfectly good InterCity trains when you have nothing to replace them with (Sligo Mk2d?)

It's a bit pointless talking about how much CIE could learn from DB when they can't even get the above right.

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

The first class has the in seat toys but not the video

But the power should be in all seats of all classes.

Here is why one group of people who IR should be particularly targeting is the business commuter who doesn't want to drive as he/she wants to do some work while travelling. But this shouldn't only be limited to first class. Many business travellers don't want to pay more, on what is already an expensive service, for something that doesn't do much extra.

Our man in Havana

Would having power at every seat cause problems for the generators?

Ruu_Old

I found the ICE trains in Germany excellent, except when one part of our journey was delayed about an hour because of a bomb threat on one of the lines. We were given €30 worth of credit per person for future trips as compensation. I travelled both first class and second class. Very comfortable and heaps of room.

jjbrien

I had a simular experince in Norway where the trains are again out of this world. Every seat on the train has a litter bin, a power point and nice reclinable chairs. Norwegain trains are quite intersting they have a quite carrage if you want a quite journey, they also have a family carrage with kiddies play area with kids toys and books and a tv showing kiddies shows to keep them happy. Very nice touch.

Aslo they have eclectronic signs on every door

so at least you know where the train is going. IE does have this on the side of the new commuter trains. The signs in side the train tell you how many minuets to the next stop. I was on one train that was 2 hours delayed because a car struck a train ahead of us on the line. We were all given a cheque for our fare from the train manager which you could cash in at the station. a vouch for some free food and drink on board to take the delay pass quickly and a voucher for a taxi when we got to our destination. Now thats service how come IE cant even do half of this. The trains themselves are out of the world and usually run to the exact minuet.

paulm17781

jjbrien wrote:

We were all given a cheque for our fare from the train manager which you could cash in at the station. a vouch for some free food and drink on board to take the delay pass quickly and a voucher for a taxi when we got to our destination.

Stuff like this really gets to me... It makes such a huge difference to public opinion but as it is, IE just don't care.

bryanw

@ post 11.

Are those trains diesel or electric? I don't see many wires in the pics.

MarkoP11

The Cork train has all the PIS gadgets, it has the external destination/next stop display, it has a coach id letter next to that, it has the wheelchair logo at the end of each coach where the wheelchair space is, it has the electronic seat reservations, it has the internal displays and they work and it has the electronic route map which also works. All coaches have a wheelchair accessible toilet and space for one wheelchair in every coach (you won't match that elsewhere). And there is full and total compliance with accessibility requirements. The ICE does not comply with the stricter standards in Ireland and the UK (for a start the livery is all wrong), that is extremely important when you consider upwards of 25% of passengers suffer from some kind of mobility or sensory impairment.

The only thing missing on the new Cork train is the sockets for laptops which is a pain, though die hard travellers know where there are power sockets to be found onboard. The in-seat entertainment is a waste of money when you consider that you need to bring your own headphones (which implies you have a walkman/ipod). Given overcrowding is a continuing problem wasting space (and taxpayers money) on frivolous stuff like a childs play area does not make any sense

The one recurring thing I see is people moaning about the train service but in true Irish tradition few if any will bother to complain, how on earth are they going to get better if Irish Rail are not made suffer

If you are delayed by more than an hour you are entitled to 50% refund in travel vouchers or 100% if the delay is more than 2 hours, you are also entitled to tea/coffee/other non alcoholic drink during the delay if the train has catering facilities on board. If you book a seat and you end up standing you get a 100% refund, If things go badly wrong a taxi or bus will be put on to take you home and that is paid for upfront. This all does happen if you bother to complete the refund form few if any bother, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been unhappy with the outcome of a refund application.

Despite a reputation the German network is no way deserves it, find a German and ask them what they think odds on they will tell a very different story. The Swiss are who you want to watch, the Swiss approach is based on timetabling, integration and above all reliability there performance figures are terrifyingly good. Irish Rail are crap but the difference is not as much as many believe

Post 11 is a electric train

jjbrien

bryanw wrote:

@ post 11.

Are those trains diesel or electric? I don't see many wires in the pics.

electric and accelorate very quickly

paulm17781

MarkoP11 wrote:

If you are delayed by more than an hour you are entitled to 50% refund in travel vouchers or 100% if the delay is more than 2 hours, you are also entitled to tea/coffee/other non alcoholic drink during the delay if the train has catering facilities on board. If you book a seat and you end up standing you get a 100% refund, If things go badly wrong a taxi or bus will be put on to take you home and that is paid for upfront. This all does happen if you bother to complete the refund form few if any bother, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been unhappy with the outcome of a refund application.

I don't think most people are aware of this. We have the form and conditions on the Platform 11 website but IE certainly don't make it easy.

From reading the above post it sounds like in Germany they were given this stuff. That is where I would see a difference.

markpb

MarkoP11 wrote:

All coaches have a wheelchair accessible toilet and space for one wheelchair in every coach (you won't match that elsewhere). And there is full and total compliance with accessibility requirements.

Isn't this mostly because the trains are newer and have to comply with Irish law rather than some effort on IRs behalf?

The only thing missing on the new Cork train is the sockets for laptops which is a pain, though die hard travellers know where there are power sockets to be found onboard.

It shouldn't be like that though - you shouldn't have to be a die-hard to find basic facilities on a train. Like the next issue, they make it harder than it should be.

The one recurring thing I see is people moaning about the train service but in true Irish tradition few if any will bother to complain, how on earth are they going to get better if Irish Rail are not made suffer

Because most people will email them their complaint and never get a reply. A written complaint will get a summary knock-off. What's the point when they don't even acknowledge your complaint?

If you are delayed by more than an hour you are entitled to 50% refund in travel vouchers or 100% if the delay is more than 2 hours, you are also entitled to tea/coffee/other non alcoholic drink during the delay if the train has catering facilities on board. If you book a seat and you end up standing you get a 100% refund, If things go badly wrong a taxi or bus will be put on to take you home and that is paid for upfront. This all does happen if you bother to complete the refund form few if any bother, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been unhappy with the outcome of a refund application.

Again, they go out of their way to make it difficult. No-one is ever told about the form when they're on a delayed train. The form isn't easy to find in any train station. I know you know all this but it's basic stuff that they can fix really easily if they cared.

Navan Junction

jjbrien wrote:

they have a quite carrage if you want a quite journey, they also have a family carrage with kiddies play area with kids toys and books and a tv showing kiddies shows to keep them happy. Very nice touch.

That is very interesting. My son loves getting the ferry to Scotland even when it's slow because it has a play area with soft mats and climbing things, and a Movie section..

Makes you wonder would it make a weekend travel more appealing to families if a 'Disney' carriage were added on iter-city runs at the weekend.

Day trips on the ferries are quite popular, I wonder would it work on IC routes? Irrespective of answers, in this country we will never know..!

MarkoP11

I have to agree the form is not commonly known but every time there is a major disruption the ass cover from IE when the media start asking is you can get a refund if you apply, it could cost them €12k per train per 2 hour delay but there is a ingrained inability in the Irish psyche to demand what we are entitled too. Far too many people moan but don't take positive action, I wasn't on the train that broke down you have the ticket its your problem to seek a refund

Complaints and refunds are different, fill in the form send it off http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/refunds.php#their_fault If they don't refund you promptly then we can have some fun

The accessibility point is very simple under the rules (which are not binding) the Dublin Cork train is required by virtue of being 8/9 coaches to have provision for at least 3 wheelchair passengers, at least one in each class and one in the dining car. There is space for 7 in fact, one in each coach, 8 if the longer train set is used. All coaches have wheelchair accessible toilets Thats significantly beyond requirements, have a look at both virgin trains fleets in the UK where the base minimum is provided, Irish Rail are down about 10 seats a train as a result.

I can't over emphasise the fact upwards of 25% of all passengers have a mobility or sensory impairment, one look at the ICE train shows non compliance in a number of areas while I can't find anything wrong with the new Cork Dublin train and I have been through the checklist

Chris_533976

Just out of interest, how do you come to 1 in 4 people having a mobility/sensory impariment? Seems a crazy high number to me.

How it is calculated? Is someone who is short sighted and wears glasses (like me) officially sensory impaired? I wouldnt mind being called that, I'm not bothered, but to use it to skew a fact? Hmmm.

The way I'd read that is that 1 in 4 people on a train is blind/disabled/has problems getting on the train. Thats definately not the case

Would be interesting to see where that figure comes from.

MarkoP11

Firstly you need to think beyond the obvious, its not just about people in wheelchairs. Mobility impairment would be anyone with restricted movement, so wheelchairs, people with walking sticks, parents with pram buggy etc, someone with a bad hip, someone with a large suitcase, the elderly. I don't know if 6 inch heels count but they might. People with weak limbs must be accounted for with the force required to push buttons and so on. Sensory impairments, hard of hearing, colour blind and so on

Considering all this you will find colour contrast on surfaces, more grab rails, different colour floors at doors, wider seat spacing for priority seats, automatic doors with audible and visual indications, illumination of steps, even the livery must be such that the doors colour contrast with the rest of the coach side, the height and force required to push any buttons is also specified

Up until very recently Irish Rail have been very easy going about achieving compliance they have finally stepped up to the plate, this is a very very important issue.

1 in 4 is the number oft quoted indeed I've been told it could be more

Chris_533976

Ok thanks Clears things up.

Yeah even on the Cobh train every colour is contrasted. Ok the colours are wearing off and the toilets are always broken, but all this effort and you have at least a 1 foot gap to jump over when you get off the train (curved platform) and it seems like a bit crazy to me. They go to all this effort ON the train but getting people off is a challenge.