cash game experts opinion needed

Norwich Fan Rob

Yes, im more of a tourney player, but dabble in the odd bit of cash also.
Last night, jumped in a £2/5 game on crypto, standard on the table was reasonable good, id been there about 1 hour, and had gone from £500 to £610, no one was getting particularly out of line, and i would describe the table as tight.

I get dealt AA, and decide to make it 15 to go on the button. (id raise a couple of hands b4 in position, but not to many, and most of my raises were being respected).
The SB has me covered, he wakes up and makes it £55 to go.
The BB then moves in for £260.

Back to move, and i decide to also move in, and the SB folds.

The SB has QQ and i win on a board of 23K44.

My question is, should i be flat calling here, rather than re raising all in, in order to try and keep the SB in the hand, as my 3 bet all in, in screaming aces and perhaps letting him get away from a hand such as JJ or AK, or is the way i played it ok.

( he later told me he had AK, and as the flop came K high, i may have got some off him if i had of flat called).

fuzzbox

Yeah just call, he should fold anyway, but just call is fine. Nobody has implied odds to take you down if they put in 260, no matter what hand they have, so give him a chance to make a big mistake.

Ste05

Whatever you do you're screaming AA or KK, raise, re-raise, re-re-raise All-in, then you either call or push what hands does he put you on??

He wouldn't have called no matter what you did.

Hectorjelly

if you fold noone will think you had AA

ntlbell

The only way you were making any more from this hand is if Hector was the SB and had 10 4o

5starpool

on that board T4 would be loving it

Ollieboy

Did the big blind move all in here Rob?

I would always rather be heads up with this hand than be 3 hand and take the300+ in the pot, so I would have made the same move here as you Rob, pushing all in preflop when your sure your ahead.

I was also involved in a hand last night which was a bit similar, no raises preflop and I’m in position on the button, after the flop, the first player to act moves all in, he's shortstack, so it will only cost me 100 to call, (which I’m happy to call) the next player to act moves all in also and as me covered (we both have around 700). I reckon I could be behind to the first player and ahead of the 2nd player, I had AJ and the flop was J64 rainbow, giving me TPTK, I put the first player on J6 who was in the BB and the 2nd player on JK and trying to protect his hand by moving all-in, I fold here. But I really should have called, as I would have won the side pot with the extra 1200 (my 600 and the 2nd players 600) even do I would have loss the main pot, (about 350) bad mistake on my part. My reads where spot on, he had JQ, and player 1 had 2 pair, with J6, so calling would have been the correct play.

ntlbell

5starpool wrote:

on that board T4 would be loving it

Ops. Didn't even read the board.

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

did the big blind move all in here?

I would always rather be heads up with this hand and get the 300+ in the pot, no matter what he had, so I would have made the same move as you here, pushing preflop when your already ahead.

I was involve in a hand last night, after the flop where the first player goes all in, but he's shortstack, so it will only cost me 100 to call, the next player moves all in and as about 700, which is equal to my stack, now I reckon I was behind to the first all in and ahead of the 2nd all in, I had AJ and the flop was J64, I put the first player on J6 and the 2nd player on JK and trying to protect his hand, I fold, but really should have called, as I would have got the side pot with the extra 600 even do I would have loss the main pot, bad mistake on my part. And my reads where spot on, he had JQ, what bad play on his part, but it work.

is my sarcasm detector not working?

AmarilloFats

I just call in this spot that way you can get away cheap if the flop comes KQJ...:D No seriously though


I Do go all in here as a call screams AA KK..
Ok so in this scenario the SB had AK, He should not call if you flat call as AK has huge reversio implied odds in this scenario ..
But he could have had QQ and called and folded on the K high flop..but called a pre flop push..
So I like the Push...But opponent depending i suppose

cardshark202

Ollieboy wrote:

did the big blind move all in here?

I would always rather be heads up with this hand and get the 300+ in the pot, no matter what he had, so I would have made the same move as you here, pushing preflop when your already ahead.

I was involve in a hand last night, after the flop where the first player goes all in, but he's shortstack, so it will only cost me 100 to call, the next player moves all in and as about 700, which is equal to my stack, now I reckon I was behind to the first all in and ahead of the 2nd all in, I had AJ and the flop was J64, I put the first player on J6 and the 2nd player on JK and trying to protect his hand, I fold, but really should have called, as I would have got the side pot with the extra 600 even do I would have loss the main pot, bad mistake on my part. And my reads where spot on, he had JQ, what bad play on his part, but it work.

This post confuses me.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

I just call in this spot that way you can get away cheap if the flop comes KQJ...:D No seriously though


I Do go all in here as a call screams AA KK..
Ok so in this scenario the SB had AK, He should not call if you flat call as AK has huge reversio implied odds in this scenario ..
But he could have had QQ and called and folded on the K high flop..but called a pre flop push..
So I like the Push...But opponent depending i suppose

QQ calls a push ?????

Hmmmm

fuzzbox

Ollieboy wrote:

did the big blind move all in here?

I would always rather be heads up with this hand and get the 300+ in the pot, no matter what he had, so I would have made the same move as you here, pushing preflop when your already ahead.

I was involve in a hand last night, after the flop where the first player goes all in, but he's shortstack, so it will only cost me 100 to call, the next player moves all in and as about 700, which is equal to my stack, now I reckon I was behind to the first all in and ahead of the 2nd all in, I had AJ and the flop was J64, I put the first player on J6 and the 2nd player on JK and trying to protect his hand, I fold, but really should have called, as I would have got the side pot with the extra 600 even do I would have loss the main pot, bad mistake on my part. And my reads where spot on, he had JQ, what bad play on his part, but it work.

Olly,
I dont know where to start.

AmarilloFats

fuzzbox wrote:

QQ calls a push ?????

Hmmmm

Yes. news in: not everybody plays well.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

Yes. news in: not everybody plays well.

Why does he call with QQ but not with AK then?

AmarilloFats

fuzzbox wrote:

Why does he call with QQ but not with AK then?

Because he sucks the fat one!!

Thankfully, illogical play abounds on the internet today.

Do u think flat calling is better than all ining!!??

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

Do u think flat calling is better than all ining!!??

Yes

Gholimoli

its better play simply because it allows more of a chance for you opponent to make a mistake.
at this stage and with the pot being the size it is,your not trying to disguise your hand any more.you dont care if the flat call screams AA,KK.
you leave that to your opponent to decide,if there is a even a small % chance of him calling if you flat call but folding if you push then you flat call.

AmarilloFats

ok so you flat call and the Sb calls.
Cool.

Are there any flops that you would fold to a push from the SB??

Are there any flops that could lead to you folding the best hand??

Are there any hands which the SB may have Called a push with preflop but will fold on the majority of flops?(EG AK)..* I play 1/2.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

ok so you flat call and the Sb calls.
Cool.

Are there any flops that you would fold to a push from the SB??

No

Are there any flops that could lead to you folding the best hand??

No

Are there any hands which the SB may have Called a push with preflop but will fold on the majority of flops?(EG AK)..* I play 1/2.

This, I cannot answer .... but he might push himself when the action gets back to him ....

AmarilloFats

As has been said I think calling could lead the SB to make a big mistake on the flop....
But in fairness YOU SHOULD NOT be able to get another penny of SB money into the pot unless he has AA KK. And if he has KK he may very well be scared more of a flat call than an all-in.

I think this is significant.

Ste05

Calling here offers the SB 4.5:1 (including the guaranteed implied odds) so you are risking this whole pot and the remainder of your stack to win an additional $205, decide whether you want to take this bet and play accordingly.

Norwich Fan Rob

i just wondered would any villian see a call as maybe QQ as opposed to AA, KK, then perhaps call with AK getting near 4/1, and make a huge mistake on a K high flop.

Just i said to the villian who folded my push after the hand, did u have JJ........he replied AK, i said would u have called if i had just called, he should he woulda, course that doesnt mean he woulda, but like fuzz said, instead of protecting against whats most likely 2 outs at best, maybe i should tried to get him in, instead of scaring him out.
That said, i was happy enough with the pot.

MrPillowTalk

After it goes bet raise reraise any money you put into this pot from now on is going to scream AA, so as a few others have said flat call and give him some rope. When you move in he basically has an easy fold on any hand bar KK which like a fish I would call

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Calling here offers the SB 4.5:1 (including the guaranteed implied odds) so you are risking this whole pot and the remainder of your stack to win an additional $205, decide whether you want to take this bet and play accordingly.

No hand is 4.5:1 to out FLOP AA.

Remember that the rest goes in on any flop, so he has to out flop hero for that price.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

No hand is 4.5:1 to out FLOP AA..

True, forgot about that, I was thinking about the hands going to showdown,

I suppose in that case a call might be better, but TBH, I think no matter what you do, you're telegraphing you have AA or KK, and it'll be difficult to extract any money out of him and I just think a push looks weaker and that's why I'd push, because I would have thought a push is (**a TINY bit**) more likely to be called. But I take your point, it's easier to call $200 and hope, than to call ~$500 and pray

ChipLdr

Ste05 wrote:

I just think a push looks weaker and that's why I'd push, because I would have thought a push is (**a TINY bit**) more likely to be called. But I take your point, it's easier to call $200 and hope, than to call ~$500 and pray

I'm sorry Ste but i totally disagree.If we push here QQ is an easy fold.The betting pattern goes ButtonRaise SBReRaise BBReRaise Button ReRaise which makes QQ a no brainer fold.

Calling (maybe) gives the impression that the Button has a hand but perhaps doesnt want to see sb reraise again.Some players with QQ might even push here to isolate but more than likely will call which are great results for AA.

Another view to take from this is the side pot.If BB is all in and gets lucky he'll take the main pot and we'll lose anyway but by dragging sb into a potential side pot by calling preflop perhaps some money could be recouped or possibly the whole lot.

The flip side of course being if QQ gets lucky but we want that call in this metaphorical long run that never seems to get going!!!!!

In this example the K on the board will kill all action with the sb but on a low flop QQ might be tricky to fold.

Ste05

I get your point of view, but equally a push could look like he doesn't want the SB in the hand and is isolating the BB and the SB's $55. Whereas a call looks like he wants more people in the pot. There's ways of thinking that can make either sound correct TBH, but I think my whole point is that unless we fold here it's obvious we have AA or KK. If the SB is a donkey then he's putting all his chips in with QQ or AK either way, if he's not a donkey then no matter what we do, pretty much everything else is getting folded, as HJ says the only way they will think we don't have AA is to fold.

But I see where you are coming from, and obviously the SB might look at it my way and think we're isolating the BB or might look at it your way, ......which, actually, now that I come to paraphrase it, I don't really understand:

ChipLdr wrote:

Calling (maybe) gives the impression that the Button has a hand but perhaps doesnt want to see sb reraise again.Some players with QQ might even push here to isolate but more than likely will call which are great results for AA.

Surely he'll know that we are calling any re-raise and so there's no point in trying to isolate??

And why would a call make it look like we don't want the SB to re-raise again??

Surely the only reason to call is to induce in a hand to see a flop and hope to hit something, and as Fuzz correctly pointed out to me, there is no hand that is getting the correct odds to try and out-flop AA, therefore no matter what they have they are making a mistake.

IMO the flop is immaterial, K high, 5 high, makes no difference, the mistake is by calling Pre-Flop, if he hits something that beats us kudos to him, is he hits something that he thinks beats us and puts the rest in then Kudos to us and then buddy list the guy either way!!