TILT (E60 to 1200 to 1) a short tale

captainkeg

Right just wanted to share this sorry story with y'all. Last tue/wed i lodged E60 to my previously dormant Paddypower poker account. Started playing a E5 stt : won played a 10 : won. Won another 10, moved up to 20 and finishe itm twice. Then won 2 50's in a row. (couldnt believe how easy this all was,even atE50 guys were calling off their entire stacks with AJo when they missed)
Anyway by fri I'm up to about E400 or so from my initial 60. I enter a $2000 guaranteed freezout and make the money. Then enter a $7000 guaranteed rebuy and by halfway am absolutely crusing the field with a monster chip lead. Make it down to 3 handed with nearly 1/2 the chips in play , I self destruct and finished 3rd. I get E950 for this but am pretty pissed. at this stage my initial E60 has become 1350 or so.

Sat in the 20000 guaranteed and I am cruising to another big payday, 2nd in chips and 4 off the money, i raise in mid pos with QQ. Button (chip leader) reraises, i repop it and he pushes. At this stage i could fold and leave myself with a relatively healthy stack and make the money but Nooooooooo. I call , he shows KK and i'm out.
I then proceed to go on mega monster monkey tilt. Tilt off about a grand buying into every f@cking rebuy tournament going. Then start playing stt's again, the standard seems have improved drastically and all i can manage is a few 3rds. Tilt off the rest playng cash
End result : I now have E1 in my PPP account. I am a ****wit . The end.

BTW in may I worked 300 int 4900 in the fitz in 2 and a half weeks. I then proceeded to ****in waste it all playing the gaming tables chasing small (100E) losses on the poker tables). Bye bye bankroll.

RoundTower

standard.

ntlbell

I'm not really sure what the moral of the story is here?

Cianos

This is why the majority of players fail to win consistently over a long period of time. Learn to control your tilt or you wont be able to break out of this.

smurph

ntlbell wrote:

I'm not really sure what the moral of the story is here?

Maybe it's the auld "Quite while your ahead" routine, I promised myself I would do that but oh no evil smurph comes out to play an i stay.

Example, playing in cash game down in Drogheda, after early exit in tournament €100 pot limit game, antes are €2 €5, good game, tight enough. After hitting a set on the flop and re-raising and all my money in the middle I survive and am up about €600. Now this covers myself, and Martins buy in for the tournamet and €100 profit, not to be sneezed at, considering Martin is motoring in the tournament, and is in the money. Do i get up and leave, oh no continue playing.

Then the hand that took most of my money away happens, bit sketchy but it went something like this. I have Ad 9h and raise to €20 3 callers, Flop is 9d 9s 2d, happy days, I bet €60 and next to act puts money in like a flash, danger here. No other callers, turn is 3d sh*t. I check he bets €180, I call (Felt that i had to call with a set and the Ad)
He says "You did fill the flush then did you). I smile and pray pair the board. River blank, no diamond and no pairing the board. He bet €150, just enough money to make me call, and he turns over Qd 10d. Ah well

Eventually got out down €150, went over and watched martin robbing the blinds with 27 offsuit and getting called lol... He won €2k so happy overall.

Anyway back to the point, when is enough enough to win. The cards have to change eventually, so exit while ahead, and get ready for next game.

Cianos

smurph wrote:

when is enough enough to win.

Ehh...never! It sounds cliché, but poker is one big long game. If you feel you should put a limit on how much you win and quit at that point, why do you play to begin with? The "quit while your ahead" attitude goes against all poker strategy, in the same way "quit while your behind" does.

ntlbell

smurph wrote:

Maybe it's the auld "Quite while your ahead" routine, I promised myself I would do that but oh no evil smurph comes out to play an i stay.

Example, playing in cash game down in Drogheda, after early exit in tournament €100 pot limit game, antes are €2 €5, good game, tight enough. After hitting a set on the flop and re-raising and all my money in the middle I survive and am up about €600. Now this covers myself, and Martins buy in for the tournamet and €100 profit, not to be sneezed at, considering Martin is motoring in the tournament, and is in the money. Do i get up and leave, oh no continue playing.

I never really got the whole quit while you're ahead, quit what? poker? the table you're sitting at? life in general? lol

Why would you leave? are you planning on never playing poker again? never sitting at a cash table again?

when do you come back? do you come back? if so what was the point in quitting in the first place?

I'm lost. (As usuall)

smurph

Cianos wrote:

Ehh...never! It sounds cliché, but poker is one big long game. If you feel you should put a limit on how much you win and quit at that point, why do you play to begin with? The "quit while your ahead" attitude goes against all poker strategy, in the same way "quit while your behind" does.

sorry I meant to say how much is enough to win in one session. Example I go into the Fitz with €500 to play in the round of each cash game. What i am trying to do is have a set figure ie if I am up €400 - €500 get up and cash out. Its very hard to do and i have failed so many times its unreal.

Then you can steadily increase your BR and have more money to cope with the swings involved in poker. How many times have you sat there and seen someone up loads and loads of money, and piss it all away over an hour or so.
If i loose the €500 so be it, sh*t happens, no way im going to chase the €500 loss and then wake up in morning down 1K, been there done that, worn the teeshirt.


I know some people say win as much as possible etc., etc., but by doing smaller hits each time it is less of a gamble with your BR, my 2cents anyway.

Looking at the professional players in the Fitz for instance playing the €100 game, if they are up a certain amount you see them up and leaving the table no problem. That game barely lasts a full night.

smurph

ntlbell wrote:

I never really got the whole quit while you're ahead, quit what? poker? the table you're sitting at? life in general? lol

Why would you leave? are you planning on never playing poker again? never sitting at a cash table again?

when do you come back? do you come back? if so what was the point in quitting in the first place?

I'm lost. (As usuall)

God I read my report and it didn't make much sense either. Quite that particular cash game while you are ahead is what I meant. Captainkeg kept increasing the size of the tournaments he went into and got dogged in a massive tournament which put him on super tilt.

Cianos

smurph wrote:

sorry I meant to say how much is enough to win in one session

Its the exact same thing. The issues you are talking about are external to in-game poker strategy;

fear of losing
playing outside your bankroll
superstition
bad habits
not being able to play comfortably with a big stack

and so on.

Basically, once you are playing good poker and are within your bankroll, you should'nt have anything else to worry about.

You say your worried about building up a good stack and then because of a bad beat or whatever, you lose it and that makes more variance and is more damaging to your bankroll. But restricting yourself from playing is hindering your bankroll too...your not allowing yourself to proceed beyond a certain point, so your BR is going to be slowly jerking its way up. Aswell, if you never let the above be an issue, then variance will take care of itself because it doesnt have to come down to that night/session/hand

fuzzbox

smurph wrote:

Maybe it's the auld "Quite while your ahead" routine, I promised myself I would do that but oh no evil smurph comes out to play an i stay.

Example, playing in cash game down in Drogheda, after early exit in tournament €100 pot limit game, antes are €2 €5, good game, tight enough. After hitting a set on the flop and re-raising and all my money in the middle I survive and am up about €600. Now this covers myself, and Martins buy in for the tournamet and €100 profit, not to be sneezed at, considering Martin is motoring in the tournament, and is in the money. Do i get up and leave, oh no continue playing.

Then the hand that took most of my money away happens, bit sketchy but it went something like this. I have Ad 9h and raise to €20 3 callers, Flop is 9d 9s 2d, happy days, I bet €60 and next to act puts money in like a flash, danger here. No other callers, turn is 3d sh*t. I check he bets €180, I call (Felt that i had to call with a set and the Ad)
He says "You did fill the flush then did you). I smile and pray pair the board. River blank, no diamond and no pairing the board. He bet €150, just enough money to make me call, and he turns over Qd 10d. Ah well

Eventually got out down €150, went over and watched martin robbing the blinds with 27 offsuit and getting called lol... He won €2k so happy overall.

Anyway back to the point, when is enough enough to win. The cards have to change eventually, so exit while ahead, and get ready for next game.

Quitting while you are ahead, just because you are ahead is silly.

Playing A9o better, is a much better solution to your problems.

brianmc

fuzzbox wrote:

Quitting while you are ahead, just because you are ahead is silly.

Playing A9o better, is a much better solution to your problems.

As is bankroll management.

smurph

fuzzbox wrote:

Quitting while you are ahead, just because you are ahead is silly.

Playing A9o better, is a much better solution to your problems.

I like playing poker, but at the end of the day im in it to make a profit, so getting up and leaving a session because im ahead on money, to me is not silly.

brianmc

smurph wrote:

I like playing poker, but at the end of the day im in it to make a profit, so getting up and leaving a session because im ahead on money, to me is not silly.

If the game is soft enough for you to make money in it then yes, leaving the game is silly whether you are up or down.

Unless - of course - you only have enough cash with you that if you take one or two big beats then you can't play anymore - in which case you should try to find a smaller game.

With €2 - €5 I wouldn't be happy sitting down with less than €500 and I would be more comfortable with €750 or €1000. I'd also preferrably have more in my pocket if I needed to buy back in or top my stack up after a few beats. I don't play cash games much though, so I may be talking nonsense.

If you think you can beat the game then you should have enough cash with you to keep beating the game even though you may take a couple of beats yourself. If you don't, then you are hoping that you win a few hands before you take a beat and go bust. It's a long term losing situation (well, perhaps long term profit-reducing).

smurph

brianmc wrote:

If the game is soft enough for you to make money in it then yes, leaving the game is silly whether you are up or down.

Unless - of course - you only have enough cash with you that if you take one or two big beats then you can't play anymore - in which case you should try to find a smaller game.

With €2 - €5 I wouldn't be happy sitting down with less than €500 and I would be more comfortable with €750 or €1000. I'd also preferrably have more in my pocket if I needed to buy back in or top my stack up after a few beats. I don't play cash games much though, so I may be talking nonsense.

If you think you can beat the game then you should have enough cash with you to keep beating the game even though you may take a couple of beats yourself. If you don't, then you are hoping that you win a few hands before you take a beat and go bust. It's a long term losing situation (well, perhaps long term profit-reducing).

Good point, the cash games in Drogheda only started 2-3 months ago, I would not normally sit down at table with such a small starting amount of €150 at game of that size, although most people had 300 - 400 in front of them. The alternative was €50 STT and €100 STT. This was the only cash game started. I will have a bigger BR if i play in it again. It was a good cash game though i prefer the Round of Each myself.

Ardent

Captain keg, been there done that. I think we can all relate to your story. It's a real kick in the gut.

The important thing is to learn from this experience. I think the next time you take a beat in poker, bad or otherwise, you won't go on tilt so easily. You'll have this experience at the back of your mind and you'll become a better player for it.

Keep the chin up.

fuzzbox

smurph wrote:

I like playing poker, but at the end of the day im in it to make a profit, so getting up and leaving a session because im ahead on money, to me is not silly.

smurph -
Good reasons to end a session
1. The game has changed from good to bad
2. You are tired
3. Its time for you to go home for whatever reason
4. You are tilting
5. You dont want to play anymore

Use any of these reasons regardless of your ahead-ness.

Quitting while you are ahead, and BECAUSE you are ahead is a bit of a false situation, as poker does not really have a start and an end, but rather is a continuous game. So, if you quit because you are up 200, but come back next week and lose 200, then you are even for the total of the two.

Quit because you want to, or whatever, dont decide to quit because you are "up 200".

AmarilloFats

Hi Smurph,
Since u play to make a profit, please don't play another hand until you understand the adivice above..

smurph

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hi Smurph,
Since u play to make a profit, please don't play another hand until you understand the adivice above..

I play cash games to make a profit and play tournament poker overall for enjoyment and fun, and hopefully to improve my game.I certainly am not having any enjoyment having posted in this thread, and why do you play poker Amarillo?

[nicK]

btw, here's something to keep in mind.. going on tilt and playing blackjack doesn't pay, kids.. something i discovered the hard way last night..

AmarilloFats

Hi Smurph,
sorry you're not enjoying the thread.
Not sure why i play..Money for sure, but i thinks it's because I know I can have a life less ordinary through poker, maybe!!
I know I fall into the trap on this forum (the only forum I frequent) of trying to sound a better player than I am. I try to give a good argument rather than having a good argument to give.
Good luck..

smurph

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hi Smurph,
sorry you're not enjoying the thread.
Not sure why i play..Money for sure, but i thinks it's because I know I can have a life less ordinary through poker, maybe!!
I know I fall into the trap on this forum (the only forum I frequent) of trying to sound a better player than I am. I try to give a good argument rather than having a good argument to give.
Good luck..

Yeah sorry, thought you were being snotty, but maybe not. Actually stole the thunder maybe from captain keg who has my sympathy.. Its just that I kinda fell into a trap for a while, of staying too long in a cash game, maybe making decisions due to tiredness etc., and piss*ng away money, when I should have gotten up an hour previous.

Maybe when Captain Keg got up so much money, withdraw half, so that if he went on tilt he was still ahead, just an idea.

Some good points given here, maybe I am a bit conservative with money in cash games, but have been stung a good few times. Points taken on board

brianmc

smurph wrote:

Yeah sorry, thought you were being snotty, but maybe not. Actually stole the thunder maybe from captain keg who has my sympathy.. Its just that I kinda fell into a trap for a while, of staying too long in a cash game, maybe making decisions due to tiredness etc., and piss*ng away money, when I should have gotten up an hour previous.

Maybe when Captain Keg got up so much money, withdraw half, so that if he went on tilt he was still ahead, just an idea.

Some good points given here, maybe I am a bit conservative with money in cash games, but have been stung a good few times. Points taken on board

I have the exact same problem as yourself Smurph, not noticing myself losing attention and getting tired and playing on when I shouldn't.

I don't think being conservative is a bad thing, especially with the amount of action you will still get particularly in live games around Dublin these days but I think buying in short is probably costing you more money than you realise.

All of this comes with the same disclaimer as I gave earlier - I don't play much cash.

smurph

brianmc wrote:

I have the exact same problem as yourself Smurph, not noticing myself losing attention and getting tired and playing on when I shouldn't.

I don't think being conservative is a bad thing, especially with the amount of action you will still get particularly in live games around Dublin these days but I think buying in short is probably costing you more money than you realise.

All of this comes with the same disclaimer as I gave earlier - I don't play much cash.

Yeah deffo agree there, sitting down with small tank is immediately putting yourself under pressure, and I don't normally do that. In tournament play you put short stacks under pressure all the time, exact same in cash games. In the fitz €1 €2 round of each the average starting stack is between 4 - 500 i think or there abouts. In the €100 game its is between 4 - 5K. Haven't played cash games in a while so might give it more of a visit. By some of the threads here the SE sounds like an interesting place for the cash games.

Ste05

smurph wrote:

Its just that I kinda fell into a trap for a while, of staying too long in a cash game, maybe making decisions due to tiredness etc., and piss*ng away money, when I should have gotten up an hour previous.

I think this is the point to look at here, the problem comes around when you look back at it the next day or whenever and think to yourself "if only I left when I was up XXX." What you should have been thinking was "I should have got up when I did XXX and realised that I was tired/ not playing well/ the table standard improved/ etc. etc."

You should possibly try setting time limits, so say you know you can easily handle a 6 or 7 hour session without becoming mentally tired or whatever it might be, so decide I'll play until X O'Clock and then leave, and then stick to it ... or try to identify a tell tale sign to yourself, for when you know you are getting complacent or tired and then when you spot yourself doing this, get up and go home the next time you're UTG...

Just a few random thoughts, do with them as you please...

EDIT: Oh yeah and to the OP, the art of BR management and Tilt control is what seperates good players that make money and good players that lose money... FISH are just FISH, but good players can lose money too... Fish can win a big tourney and piss it away playing out of their BR...

5starpool

you are overestimating the fitz 50 games starting stacks. Round of each and Omaha only is on average around 200-250 starting stack. Some start lower, some higher, but about 250 is usually more than enough to start with if you are on a typical table.

Shortstack

A technicality to the 'never quit just because you are ahead rule'. This a real situation that happened not so long ago.

A player who has a bankroll of $37k sits down comfortably in a 10/20 NL cash game with $1500, he strictly appplies the 5% rule, ie he never has more than 5% of his Bankroll in play at any one table.

Within a couple of hours he has tripled his stack to $4500, some else at the table has built up a $5k stack. This means his total bankroll is now $41.5k and he thinks to himself, 'one more round of the table and I will leave'. Next hand he loses all $4500.

If he followed his own bankroll management advice he would have left before this hand as he now has over 10% of his total bankroll at the table.

smurph

5starpool wrote:

you are overestimating the fitz 50 games starting stacks. Round of each and Omaha only is on average around 200-250 starting stack. Some start lower, some higher, but about 250 is usually more than enough to start with if you are on a typical table.

sorry 5starpool, its been a while since ive been there, probably mixing it up with all omaha game, Luke probably thinks im on my yearly sebatical, lol. Going to few of the GJP events, which I find good. Hope you are doing well, I have read you blog and i think its great. Honest reporting and a very interesting read.

5starpool

Cheers Colette, you should try the new Thursday game in the Fitz, it is a good one and would suit you well I think. After the World Cup I think everyone will settle down into a good old routine again and the numbers in all the games will rise again to entice you back.

smurph

5starpool wrote:

Cheers Colette, you should try the new Thursday game in the Fitz, it is a good one and would suit you well I think. After the World Cup I think everyone will settle down into a good old routine again and the numbers in all the games will rise again to entice you back.

Funny i used to like the Saturday round of each (bingo) game the best, and they had smallest number, but it was brillant. Vernon and Paddy Hicks, unreal, great fun and entertaining. Suppose the same gang go into the fitz, plus a few newbies, Frank Hunt still looking as handsome as ever I suppose..LOL

5starpool

Of course. The Sat round of each game is the only one only one I am having much success with lately actually.

stephenoleary

Shortstack wrote:

A technicality to the 'never quit just because you are ahead rule'. This a real situation that happened not so long ago.

A player who has a bankroll of $37k sits down comfortably in a 10/20 NL cash game with $1500, he strictly appplies the 5% rule, ie he never has more than 5% of his Bankroll in play at any one table.

Within a couple of hours he has tripled his stack to $4500, some else at the table has built up a $5k stack. This means his total bankroll is now $41.5k and he thinks to himself, 'one more round of the table and I will leave'. Next hand he loses all $4500.

If he followed his own bankroll management advice he would have left before this hand as he now has over 10% of his total bankroll at the table.

Possibly the best piece of advice I have read in months. Appreciated Shortstack, greatly.