interesting 2/4 hand

Gholimoli

This hand came up and even though I played it as bad as it could have been played my question is not regarding my play but rather regarding villains play.
Villain here is a decent player and we have played together a few times. we have never been involved in a pig pot as far as I can remember .
Villain is much more experienced than I am in cash games, that said I think he played this hand in a weird fashion and that’s why I wanted to get some opinions.(bytheway villain reads this board).

2/4 Tribeca 6 hand max

stacks
Me: 600 or so
Villain 450 or so

UTG limps folded to villain on SB who makes it 10.
Im on the BB with Ako and make it 30.UTG folds and its back to villain who quickly makes it 80 .
Now Im thinking of folding here expect two things:
I have never seen villain min raise like this big pairs (AA,KK,QQ) ,im sure he dosent have a pair above TT infact.his raise of 10 just does not make sense to me.ive seen him raise like this before out of position and check fold the flop .his raise was certainly not designed to build the pot or thin the filed and to be honest I think his raise was just a limping tax kind of raise.(im talking about his initial raise to 10).
The other reason why I decided not to fold was obviously that I had position.so I called.

Flop(180ish)
2 3 6 with two hearts

Villain checks
Now I was thinking of checking but then again my read was so far good.i didn’t think villain had much and his check on the flop certainly indicated as much.so I though a big bet should deffo take the pot here and I came out firing a 200 bet.
Villain thinks for a while and goes all in for another 200 to me.
Now I really thought about calling here but I though villain made a set as the texture of the flop and preflop play and now the check raise would make sence.i decided to fold like a girl and so I did.
Later on a asked villain what they had he said he had K high.im having hard time believing villain .i just don’t see him coming over the top of me like this with K high.
He must have known he has almost 0 FE given the preflop and post flop action by me so his bet could not have been a bet to try to get me off a hand.i was representing AA,KK,QQ and he must of known I would call his bet with any of them hands.
The only think I could think of that would make sense is that maybe villain here had a K high flush draw and though the pot is big enough to risk it so even though he didn’t count on his FE he counted on his outs.
The only thing is this does not make sense either though .i mean effectively villain is making a 400 bet to win 600 on a flush draw(calling my 200 bet + rasing another 200 to win the whole pot) when he can fold having invested 80.
So feel free to comment and tell me if you think my logic is flawed.

fuzzbox

I fold to the reraise preflop.
Your hand has negative implied odds.

if I do call, then I think I check that flop right back to him. You might have the best hand, and you certainly cant stand a raise, and you might have outs.

200 is way too much to bet on that flop.

When the SB raises, the BB reraises, and the SB 3-bets, the sb usually has a v.big hand.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

I fold to the reraise preflop.
Your hand has negative implied odds.

if I do call, then I think I check that flop right back to him. You might have the best hand, and you certainly cant stand a raise, and you might have outs.

200 is way too much to bet on that flop.

When the SB raises, the BB reraises, and the SB 3-bets, the sb usually has a v.big hand.

as i said i played the hand as bad as it could have been played.
but do you think villain could have K high here?

fuzzbox

Villain almost certainly does not have K-high here ... probably ever.

Do you have Ah?

K-high ... with another K maybe !!

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

but do you think villain could have K high here?

No way José :rolleyes:

he's not 3-betting here without a biggy.

K high x 2 perhaps

Gholimoli

based on the description of villain and the action ,what do you think villain has?

MrPillowTalk

If you are really sure that villain doesnt have a pair above TT then most likely holdings are pair below TT, funnilly enough if I was villain and had say 88 99 etc here I would fold to a 120 flop bet but would snap the 200 off as it looks weak i.e. you are reping AA KK by flat calling his reraise pre AA KK would hope for villain to lead the flop, when he doesnt and that flop has no obvious help for either player an AA KK would either check or half/twothird pot bet.

As played if you cant put villain on a pair above TT then Im calling the push with AK, purely out of trying to send a message that I wont fold to underraise all ins this removes the cr all in move from villains arsenal in future unless he really has a hand he doesnt mind going the distance with.

some players might make this all in move with two overs and a flush draw if they think you are capable of a fold, but I dont like it.

Gholimoli

MrPillowTalk wrote:

If you are really sure that villain doesnt have a pair above TT then most likely holdings are pair below TT, funnilly enough if I was villain and had say 88 99 etc here I would fold to a 120 flop bet but would snap the 200 off as it looks weak i.e. you are reping AA KK by flat calling his reraise pre AA KK would hope for villain to lead the flop, when he doesnt and that flop has no obvious help for either player an AA KK would either check or half/twothird pot bet.

As played if you cant put villain on a pair above TT then Im calling the push with AK, purely out of trying to send a message that I wont fold to underraise all ins this removes the cr all in move from villains arsenal in future unless he really has a hand he doesnt mind going the distance with.

some players might make this all in move with two overs and a flush draw if they think you are capable of a fold, but I dont like it.

At the time I thought I represented AK,KK,QQ,JJ with my line.i reraised his initial raise and then called his raise.i would more than likely reraise here with AA so that kinda rules it out.
With KK I would call some times and reraise some times so I think that leaves it in.
The pot sized bet on the flop was awful I know but seen as the board had two hearts there I was trying to say I have a big pair and an am protecting against flush draws.
I think my play suggests a big pair as the only unpaired hand that I could possibly have here would be AK and villain knows I would more than likely check behind here with AK.
My play was purely based on the fact that I thought villain was weak and I had represented strength.

FastMachine

Gholimoli wrote:

2/4 Tribeca 6 hand max

stacks
Me: 600 or so
Villain 450 or so

UTG limps folded to villain on SB who makes it 10.
Im on the BB with Ako and make it 30.UTG folds and its back to villain who quickly makes it 80 .
Now Im thinking of folding here expect two things:
I have never seen villain min raise like this big pairs (AA,KK,QQ) ,im sure he dosent have a pair above TT infact.his raise of 10 just does not make sense to me.ive seen him raise like this before out of position and check fold the flop .his raise was certainly not designed to build the pot or thin the filed and to be honest I think his raise was just a limping tax kind of raise.(im talking about his initial raise to 10).
The other reason why I decided not to fold was obviously that I had position.so I called.

I've doing lots of 1.5xBB raising lately, just experimenting a bit. You're reraising range is quite wide Gholimoli and I think you reraised me preflop on another table earlier so I thought I'd put you to the test by raising again. When you called I was almost certain you didn't have AA or KK, it was either a decent pocket pair or AQ/AK.

Flop(180ish)
2 3 6 with two hearts

Villain checks
Now I was thinking of checking but then again my read was so far good.i didn’t think villain had much and his check on the flop certainly indicated as much.so I though a big bet should deffo take the pot here and I came out firing a 200 bet.
Villain thinks for a while and goes all in for another 200 to me.

That was a great flop for me. I didn't want to bet and then have you fold the times you're weak and put me all in the times you have a made hand. I wanted to get as much from you the times you've nothing as I'm going to end up all in here every time against your range.
I know you're an aggressive player so I expected a bet if I checked it to you, whether you've got something or not. The size of the bet threw me a bit because you seemed to be committing yourself to the pot.
Well, I wasn't worried about AA or KK, a decent pocket pair (88-QQ) was one possibility and that means I have overcards and a flush draw which means I'm the favourite. The other possibility was a bluff with AK/AQ but one way or another I expected to be called here.

Now I really thought about calling here but I though villain made a set as the texture of the flop and preflop play and now the check raise would make sence.i decided to fold like a girl and so I did.
Later on a asked villain what they had he said he had K high.im having hard time believing villain .i just don’t see him coming over the top of me like this with K high.

Lol, I told you I had KhQh, there's a big diffence between having K high and having overcards and a flush draw.

He must have known he has almost 0 FE given the preflop and post flop action by me so his bet could not have been a bet to try to get me off a hand.i was representing AA,KK,QQ and he must of known I would call his bet with any of them hands.

Yeah, I was expecting to be all in here. As I said, I knew you didn't have a big pair and I was quite surprised when you said you folded AK afterwards as most people when they've put that much in the pot will nearly always call off the remainder of their stack with that particular hand.

The only think I could think of that would make sense is that maybe villain here had a K high flush draw and though the pot is big enough to risk it so even though he didn’t count on his FE he counted on his outs.
The only thing is this does not make sense either though .i mean effectively villain is making a 400 bet to win 600 on a flush draw(calling my 200 bet + rasing another 200 to win the whole pot) when he can fold having invested 80.
So feel free to comment and tell me if you think my logic is flawed.

I was a slight favourite on the flop if you had 88-JJ and a slight underdog if you had AK/AQ/QQ so I was getting nice odds by on going all in here.


It was an usual hand alright.

Gholimoli

FastMachine wrote:

I've doing lots of 1.5xBB raising lately, just experimenting a bit. You're reraising range is quite wide Gholimoli and I think you reraised me preflop on another table earlier so I thought I'd put you to the test by raising again. When you called I was almost certain you didn't have AA or KK, it was either a decent pocket pair or AQ/AK.



That was a great flop for me. I didn't want to bet and then have you fold the times you're weak and put me all in the times you have a made hand. I wanted to get as much from you the times you've nothing as I'm going to end up all in here every time against your range.
I know you're an aggressive player so I expected a bet if I checked it to you, whether you've got something or not. The size of the bet threw me a bit because you seemed to be committing yourself to the pot.
Well, I wasn't worried about AA or KK, a decent pocket pair (88-QQ) was one possibility and that means I have overcards and a flush draw which means I'm the favourite. The other possibility was a bluff with AK/AQ but one way or another I expected to be called here.



Lol, I told you I had KhQh, there's a big diffence between having K high and having overcards and a flush draw.



Yeah, I was expecting to be all in here. As I said, I knew you didn't have a big pair and I was quite surprised when you said you folded AK afterwards as most people when they've put that much in the pot will nearly always call off the remainder of their stack with that particular hand.



I was a slight favourite on the flop if you had 88-JJ and a slight underdog if you had AK/AQ/QQ so I was getting nice odds by on going all in here.


It was an usual hand alright.

i actually thought you said you had K high even though i thought if you did have K high you must have had a flush draw as there was noway you were counting on any FE after my flop bet.
i should have went with my read and called though i thought a low PP did match the action and my reading of your hand.

Hectorjelly

This is a crazy hand and I think there were several mistakes by each player

FastMachine

Care to elaborate?

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is a crazy hand and I think there were several mistakes by each player

my biggest mistake was folding at the end when and not going by my read.
i think based on my read i played the rest of the hand fine(maybe the bet on the flop was too big but i was trying to say i have a a big pair and am trying to protect against flush draw).
Machine is a fish:D

fuzzbox

Gholi, you should go all-in preflop if your read is that he doesnt have QQ+

Hectorjelly

in order of magnitude,
Making it 10 from the sb with KQ
Calling a reraise with AK (fold or raise again)
Checking the flop with KQ given the stack sizes
Betting 200 and folding to a raise

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Gholi, you should go all-in preflop if your read is that he doesnt have QQ+

His rerasise deffo threw me off as I really didn’t expect it there.
The pot is 90 or so why would I wanna go all in for another 400 or so with Ako when I have position and I can see a flop?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Gholi, you should go all-in preflop if your read is that he doesnt have QQ+

actually i see your point and i should have,as i said his reraise preflop really threw me off ,and you really dont have that much time to think about on Tribeca other wise i would prob have gone all in or maybe folded .
to be honest im new to cash games and when this deep im not really comfortable with big all ins pre flop even if its the correct play.
im reading up alot about it though and posting here alot too so im getting better at it.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

actually i see your point and i should have,as i said his reraise preflop really threw me off ,and you really dont have that much time to think about on Tribeca other wise i would prob have gone all in or maybe folded .
to be honest im new to cash games and when this deep im not really comfortable with big all ins pre flop even if its the correct play.
im reading up alot about it though and posting here alot too so im getting better at it.

It looks to me that you have jumped into 3/6 2/4 (I maybe wrong)

Why don't you play .50/1 1/2 for a bit to get some experience?

Just a thought...

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

in order of magnitude,
Making it 10 from the sb with KQ
Calling a reraise with AK (fold or raise again)
Checking the flop with KQ given the stack sizes
Betting 200 and folding to a raise

OK, making it 10 from the SB with KQs isn't optimal. In my defence though, this is an experimental play, I've only been doing this kind of thing for the last week (1.5xBB raise with a particular range of hands from any postition). I'm trying different ways of playing certain hands from certain positions. Just looking for profitable situations that may exist that I haven't explored before. Most of these plays will probably consigned to the scrap heap fairly soon but I'm having some success with a few of them.

I don't see anything wrong with the flop. I've seen Ghoilimoli reraise light preflop on a few occasions before - as in with trash, I've also seen him reraise with AA. I thought there was a decent chance I could take it down here with a big enough reraise (with KQs oop it's either fold or make a play and reraise) and I wanted to sent out a message that I wasn't going to be pushed around as he'd reraised me earlier with a less than premium hand. When he flat called the reraise I knew he had a real hand and I could put him on a very narrow range - AK/AQ, 99-QQ.
I don't see how I could've played the flop more profitably. He was always going to bet if checked to and I was always going to reraise all in, but if I lead out he'd fold AK/AQ and get away cheap. If he had AK/AQ I thought he'd fold to the reraise all in but he made a bigger than expected bluff and seemed to commit himself which made me think he had a pocket pair which I was a favourite to win over.

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

It looks to me that you have jumped into 3/6 2/4 (I maybe wrong)

Why don't you play .50/1 1/2 for a bit to get some experience?

Just a thought...

there is not that many players better than me here.if i felt i was out of my league i would but and maybe i still will(if i go broke) for the time being i dont see the over all standard that good TBH.

FastMachine

Yeah, you seem to be doing fine Gholi.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

there is not that many players better than me here.if i felt i was out of my league i would but and maybe i still will(if i go broke) for the time being i dont see the over all standard that good TBH.

Don't get me wrong, I'm _not_ doubting your "skillllzzz" I just think 2/4 3/6 is an odd place to start and learn, each to their own.

ianmc38

I beat 1/2 and 2/4 quite easily. My BB/100 at 3/6 is barely in the green over 2k hands. 2.1/100

I find 1/2 less stressful after working all day as well. I havn't played online poker in a month or so though. Gonna get back into it tonight by trying out the cash games on Party. I don't think there's a huge differenc ein skill at 1/2 and 3/6.

There appears to be an equal amount of fish in each.

Gholimoli

FastMachine wrote:

Yeah, you seem to be doing fine Gholi.

you mean apart from dumping chips to you in a donkey fashion:D .
im actually doing better than i expected.im sure my win rate at the mo is due to a very good run and a huge amount of fish traffic on this level.
but for the moment and as long as the fish will have me im not going anywhere.

5starpool

you playing exclusively on tribeca gholi?

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

you playing exclusively on tribeca gholi?

yes , i am at the moment as my BR is on PPP and i dont use Neteller yet even though i got one.
i plan on visiting party cash games soon as i hear very good things about it.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

His rerasise deffo threw me off as I really didn’t expect it there.
The pot is 90 or so why would I wanna go all in for another 400 or so with Ako when I have position and I can see a flop?

Because your hand has reverse implied odds - so shove or fold.

And the pot is 130, not 90.

If you were to make a pot raise you would call the 50 and make it 180 more to go. At which point you are effectively pushing.

Also - $1 PTBB = 12, $130 = 11 PTBB ... how many PTBBs/hand do you make with AK?

willis

Gholimoli wrote:

yes , i am at the moment as my BR is on PPP and i dont use Neteller yet even though i got one.
i plan on visiting party cash games soon as i hear very good things about it.

Your playing 3/6 without rakeback..your friggin mental!

fuzzbox

Im mental too, I play anywhere from 3/6 to 10/20 and I dont have friggin rakeback either .

Ste05

Seriously lads, get an RB deal, you're probably costing yourselves at least $500 a month, if you're putting in serious hours at those levels...

Although Fuzz, you play on Party though don't you, and so then you just get to enjoy the fish

Hectorjelly

The check raise is bad because if Gholi bets the pot he should of been committed to the hand, whilst you got a great flop just under half the time you will end up with K hi, and it would really suck to lose a 1k pot to Ace high.