New Dublin Transport Authority -CIE's days in control of transport in Dublin are over

aliveandkicking

From the Sunday Times

Dublin set for radical public transport plan
Richard Oakley
STATE transport agencies will be stripped of their powers and CIE will lose control of Dublin Bus under radical new plans to transform the capital’s infrastructure.

Under proposals to be brought to the cabinet within three weeks by Martin Cullen, the transport minister, a new Dublin Transport Authority (DTA) is to be given control over the procurement and operation of all public transport in the greater Dublin area.

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The DTA will incorporate the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), the body with responsibility for Luas and other light rail projects, and lead to the closure of the Dublin Transportation Office (DTO), the planning agency launched in 1995.

In what is likely to be a controversial move, the new agency will take control of services from Dublin Bus, the CIE subsidiary. This will see the company’s state aid of about €65m being channelled through the DTA. Under the changes, Dublin Bus will have to sell its services to the authority. Iarnrod Eireann, another CIE subsidiary, will also lose some of its responsibilities to the DTA.

The move will concentrate all decision making in one body instead of the current multitude of agencies, streamlining the roll-out of new infrastructure and the operation of existing services. The DTA will also take responsibility for Dublin’s traffic management, which is currently carried out by separate local authorities.

The DTA will have the power to set fares and be responsible for the delivery of all public transport infrastructure from the date of its establishment. This will include projects already in the planning stage, such as Dublin’s two metro lines and the provision of an underground rail interconnector between Heuston station and Spencer Dock.

These schemes are managed by the RPA and Iarnrod Eireann, but this will cease to be the case when the DTA comes into being.

The long-delayed plan to introduce integrated ticketing in Dublin will also become a priority for the new agency. This €30m project was being overseen by the RPA but, as The Sunday Times revealed recently, became bogged down in a feud with Dublin Bus.

Last month, Cullen indicated in the Dail that he had become increasingly frustrated with the delay and had “other options” to ensure its delivery.

The DTA’s powers will be enshrined in new legislation that the minister will attempt to have implemented within the lifetime of the current government.

Plans for the authority have been drawn up by a panel of experts appointed by Cullen after he announced the government’s €34 billion Transport 21 initiative last November. The team, led by Professor Margaret O’Mahony, has to find an internationally recognised chief executive to run the body.

Cullen’s plans are likely to be supported by opposition parties, many of which have repeatedly called for public transport in the capital to be overseen by one body amid concerns that infighting among separate agencies has delayed key improvements and reduced co-ordination of services.

Olivia Mitchell, Fine Gael’s transport spokeswoman, welcomed the move.

“We have needed a transport authority for some time. It’s very important that we have one body with the powers to make all the decisions rather than the current situation where there are numerous agencies vying with each other for power and doing their own thing. At the moment everyone is paddling their own canoe and this is not in the public interest,” she said.

She said the “fiasco” over integrated ticketing showed that agencies were not able to work together and there had been other instances where public transport agencies had hindered each other from providing services.

“The agencies are in competition with each other and this prevents co-ordination. You have a case where the RPA wants to run the Luas somewhere and Dublin Bus complains it will interfere with its services and so on,” she said.

She warned that a transport authority should not be seen as an opportunity for government to distance itself from overall responsibility for the capital’s transport. “The minister will still be responsible for overseeing the authority,” she said.

_Kaiser_

Sounds like a good move...... what am I missing?

Slippin Jimmy

I just had a quick glance through it, so I might have missed out a few parts. So Dublin Bus will become part of the DTA, so I wonder will fares remain the same or will they go up? Surely they will just be getting the same funding as CIE did, not that much extra anyway. Is this just a name change? I think the best idea of the whole thing is that the intergrating tickets, that has to be a good move.

spacetweek

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Sounds like a good move...... what am I missing?

Yea, it all sounds too good to be true doesn't it. Will believe it when I see it tbh.

aliveandkicking

On the face of it, it seems like a TfL type organisation for Dublin which if done properly will be a very positive development.

bk

This looks like excellent news for the people of Dublin. Most modern capitol cities with good public transport systems like London have a Transport Authority like this and they tend to ensure that the needs of the population are meet rather then the petty squabbling of the organisation's involved.

I assume that the DART will fall under this authority?

What about the Dublin commuter trains?

Chris_533976

I'll get the popcorn for when CIE and Iarnrod sue

bk

Chris_533976 wrote:

I'll get the popcorn for when CIE and Iarnrod sue

They are semi-state bodies, I don't think they can do sue their owners. Worst that can happen is the unions go on strike and they end up with egg on their face again, like they did with the new trains to Cork.

Dub13

bk wrote:

They are semi-state bodies, I don't think they can do sue their owners. Worst that can happen is the unions go on strike and they end up with egg on their face again, like they did with the new trains to Cork.

That was not the unions,it was a small group of workers.There is a precedent for this back in 88 (I think) when Dublin Bus was formed.

Transport21 Fan

In what is likely to be a controversial move, the new agency will take control of services from Dublin Bus, the CIE subsidiary. This will see the company’s state aid of about €65m being channelled through the DTA. Under the changes, Dublin Bus will have to sell its services to the authority. Iarnrod Eireann, another CIE subsidiary, will also lose some of its responsibilities to the DTA.

This is simply fantastic news and caps off a remarkable week of positive developments for public transport in Ireland.

I now actually believe that the Interconnector will have a chance of being properly operated to its full potenial when up and running. My biggest worry all along was that upon completion the "Anto and Deco Factor" would result in the Interconenctor being just a tokenistic project out of synch with the Metro and Luas' post T21 operations, But this is the answer to this potential issue.

The stuatutory aspects are vital and the power of the DTA being enshrined in law will give it real (and by default the public transport users) real teeth. The NBRU will lose their exclusive power to have public transport in Dublin function according to CIE union members lifestyle options.

The years of CIE darkness are ending for Dubliners who will now have a chance to regain the world-class, fully integrated public transport system which was once the envy of the world back in the days of the incredible DUTC.

I also have high hope that the DTA will see the Phoenix Park tunnel as more than a "works tunnel".

IE/Irish Rail in its mindset has always been a sleepy rural railway company unable to grasp the complexties and needs of urban rail transport and its probably good for them now that they can concentrate on hanging baskets and trains stopping in the middle of the Bog of Allen for no reason and with no explanation. Stick with what they do best.

aliveandkicking

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I also have high hope that the DTA will see the Phoenix Park tunnel as more than a "works tunnel".

Now theres a thought!

I just hope the Sunday Times article is accurate and we don't end up with a watered down version of the DTA when it goes to cabinet.

John R

aliveandkicking wrote:

On the face of it, it seems like a TfL type organisation for Dublin which if done properly will be a very positive development.

Indeed. Properly organised, run and well funded will be the key elements necessary to make this a positive move. Otherwise it will be yet another agency for pen-pushing civil servants to commission reports and issue meaningless reccomendations from.

I wonder where this agency will be located, as it is new there should be no problem having it decentralised, perhaps to Mayo to make up for the lack of WRC?


As long as it is not used as an excuse to privatise Dublin Bus or to run it into the ground in order to further political agendas (namely the PDs) there should not be a great deal of industrial unrest.

It may well be a harder adjustment for the current private operators, the currently held exclusive "do what you like on a give route licences" may well be sticking points all the way to the four courts.

It should be pointed out that in comparison to the current one company operation, franchising is a much more costly method of running bus services.


One of the key differences from TfL is that this new authority seems to only be concerned with public transport, a major part of the success of the London model is that they have responsibility for the roads as well and were able to use that to integrate traffic management and traffic related revenues into the system.

Another question is area. Dublin transport is increasingly spreading into the rest of Leinster, leaving out everything beyond the county border may well be a big mistake. Medium-long distance commuting is an expanding part of the citys traffic and one that is more lacking integration than services within the county.

BendiBus

John R wrote:

One of the key differences from TfL is that this new authority seems to only be concerned with public transport...

The article says the DTA will take responsibility for traffic management.

I think a DTA with real authority would be a huge step forward.

murphaph

Indeed, they must have authority over the roads to enable proper bus priority measures to be instigated where needs be. If the article is entirely accurate (disappointed too many times before) then it's wonderful news. Taking a good chunk of political control away from transport in the GDR is a huge part of the battle.I wonder will IE trains start displaying their destinations on the electronic displays under the DTA? IE don't seem to care about such 'tedious details', afterall, they just drive trains!

Slice

I can see squabbles over greater dublin area boundaries between DTA and CIE if such a body is formed...

shltter

Sounds Like it is not a bad idea on the face of it but the devil is in the detail.

What I dont see is how the Minister intends to deal with the problems involved in Brennans original plan to break up CIE.
For example the Pensions issue.
And the Letter of comfort that pre 1987 staff have.
Property which part of CIE owns what etc.
If it is just an attermpt to privatise DB by another name then it is a non runner if it is a genuine attempt to organise Public transport for the city then it is welcome.

Judge

DonnybrookGhost wrote:

I just had a quick glance through it, so I might have missed out a few parts. So Dublin Bus will become part of the DTA, so I wonder will fares remain the same or will they go up? Surely they will just be getting the same funding as CIE did, not that much extra anyway. Is this just a name change? I think the best idea of the whole thing is that the intergrating tickets, that has to be a good move.

Sounds to me more likely that the DTA will become a regulatory authority for Dublin public transport. That is, Dublin Bus will remain in existence and will supply the buses and the drivers but the DTA will set fares, routes and timetables. Ideally they will also be able to penalise DB and other providers for performance failures - buses running late or not turning up etc. Fares will be paid centrally to the DTA and then disbursed, along with relevant subsidies, to the companies. Hopefully in opening new routes the DTA will be able to open them to public tender and perhaps also to supplement existing DB routes that need more capacity.

Metrobest

The DTA will have its work cut out trying to tame the bolshiness of Dublin Bus.

Prepare for more CIE squawks that the DTA is "biased" against Dublin Bus, Irish Rail etc.

This is the company whose "vision" of smart cards is a cheap gimmick with a big 80s-style CIE logo on it that you have to buy every week in Centra and then throw in the bin.

The smart card project will be the acid test of the DTA's effectiveness. Trying and get Dublin Bus and Irish Rail to agree to the RPA's best-practice Singapore-style smart card is going to require some negotiating skills.

They'll need Fr Alec Reid, Winnie Mandella and John DuChastelin as peace brokers while Margaret O'Mahony will have to rip of a wig or other item of clothing to relieve the tension that's bound to pervade the negotiating table.

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

The DTA will have its work cut out trying to tame the bolshiness of Dublin Bus.

Prepare for more CIE squawks that the DTA is "biased" against Dublin Bus, Irish Rail etc.

This is the company whose "vision" of smart cards is a cheap gimmick with a big 80s-style CIE logo on it that you have to buy every week in Centra and then throw in the bin.

The smart card project will be the acid test of the DTA's effectiveness. Trying and get Dublin Bus and Irish Rail to agree to the RPA's best-practice Singapore-style smart card is going to require some negotiating skills.

They'll need Fr Alec Reid, Winnie Mandella and John DuChastelin as peace brokers while Margaret O'Mahony will have to rip of a wig or other item of clothing to relieve the tension that's bound to pervade the negotiating table.

You are talking out of your arse

http://www.dublinbus.ie/projects/integrated_ticketing_system.asp

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

The smart card project will be the acid test of the DTA's effectiveness. Trying and get Dublin Bus and Irish Rail to agree to the RPA's best-practice Singapore-style smart card is going to require some negotiating skills.

I'd say a far better test would be to see if the DTA manages to simplify and rationalise the fare structure so it is zonebased and integrated across all licenced operators, rather than settling for an overly complicated model only necessary in a situatoin where the operators are responsible for their ticketing policies rather than a regulator, but if you want to judge the DTA by this particular metric, go right ahead.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Winnie Mandella

Giving people a 'necklace of death' is hardly a peace measure.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/14/newsid_2863000/2863807.stm

maxheadroom wrote:

I'd say a far better test would be to see if the DTA manages to simplify and rationalise the fare structure so it is zonebased

He have a zone-based fare structure, it just so happens we have small zones called stages.

The real problem is transfering from one vehicle to another.

shltter

maxheadroom wrote:

I'd say a far better test would be to see if the DTA manages to simplify and rationalise the fare structure so it is zonebased and integrated across all licenced operators, rather than settling for an overly complicated model only necessary in a situatoin where the operators are responsible for their ticketing policies rather than a regulator, but if you want to judge the DTA by this particular metric, go right ahead.

What kind of Zone based fare system do you have in mind something similar to that used on the Xpresso services.

I presume you mean Zone 1 city centre , Zone 2 Canals , Zone 3 suburbs, or something like that

Can i ask what about Bus routes that do not go into the City for example the 17A ,103/104 ,220, 17 ,75,18 they might only travel in one of your Zones but the journey is as longer and longer in many cases than routes that might cross 3 or 4 of your Zones.

Victor

Imagine each of the local area guides as a zone, shaped roughly like a hexagon, not concentric rings like in london or on Luas.

shltter

Victor wrote:

Imagine each of the local area guides as a zone, shaped roughly like a hexagon, not concentric rings like in london or on Luas.

Still cant see that as any improvement on what we have at the moment I dont see how it would be any less confusing

And you could skirt into 3 or more of those areas in a relatively short journey ie one bus route could travel for 3 or 4 miles before entering a new zone whilst another might only travel 100 metres and be in a different zone.
What about people travelling one stop which happens to be in the next zone it would be very unfair to ask them to pay for 2 zone travel.


My own personal opinion is that if the stages were clearly marked at the relevant stops it would solve most confusion.

With the realtime passenger information it should not be difficult to display on the bus what the current stage is to reduce further any confusion and with the new tickets stating clearly the boarding and alighting stage there should be little or no confusion.

maxheadroom

Victor wrote:

Giving people a 'necklace of death' is hardly a peace measure.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/14/newsid_2863000/2863807.stm

He have a zone-based fare structure, it just so happens we have small zones called stages.

The real problem is transfering from one vehicle to another.

Unfortunately, these 'zones' are route specific, it is possible to make roughly the same journey on different routes and get charged a different fare.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Victor wrote:

Imagine each of the local area guides as a zone, shaped roughly like a hexagon, not concentric rings like in london or on Luas.

Still cant see that as any improvement on what we have at the moment I dont see how it would be any less confusing

And you could skirt into 3 or more of those areas in a relatively short journey ie one bus route could travel for 3 or 4 miles before entering a new zone whilst another might only travel 100 metres and be in a different zone.
What about people travelling one stop which happens to be in the next zone it would be very unfair to ask them to pay for 2 zone travel.


My own personal opinion is that if the stages were clearly marked at the relevant stops it would solve most confusion.

With the realtime passenger information it should not be difficult to display on the bus what the current stage is to reduce further any confusion and with the new tickets stating clearly the boarding and alighting stage there should be little or no confusion.

Dear oh dear, have you never used a zone based integrated system? It is not "just the same as the stage based system we have". All your 'problems' highlghted above have been figured out before. The zones don't have to be hexagons or concentric circles, they can have deviations in the real world and are usually only illustrated as comcentric circles etc. on figurative maps (like the Famous UnergrounD map).

The problem of people getting nailed for going 1 stop across a zone boundary is dealt wih by having stops that straddle the boundary of both zones and are considered to be in either depending on which way you came, indeed, in Mnich you can find two or three stops on the same radial route to be considered on a zone boundary as they are relatively close together.

I'm afraid shltter that this comment (wrt stage based fares, which I still struggle with as a Dublin native) shows an amazing ignorance of how public transport should actually be provided so as to make it user friendly;

Still cant see that as any improvement on what we have at the moment I dont see how it would be any less confusing

That just beggars belief quite frankly. Anyway, zonal systems allow readily undestandable integrated ticketing structures to be put in place.

John R

murphaph wrote:

I'm afraid shltter that this comment (wrt stage based fares, which I still struggle with as a Dublin native) shows an amazing ignorance of how public transport should actually be provided so as to make it user friendly;

That just beggars belief quite frankly. Anyway, zonal systems allow readily undestandable integrated ticketing structures to be put in place.

The stage system is far too complex, for the last few years even the bus drivers were struggling with it as DB hadn't replaced the stage numbers on the bus stop heads.

A zone based system (along with comprehensive maps) is much better but with the introduction of pre-pay smartcards there is still the problem of tagging out.

TfL spent a good deal of time working out their system before introducing pre-pay on to the bus network. Originally they had planned on using a simplified zonal system similar to the tube/rail zones but eventually they decided the tagging out would cause too much delay, confusion and disputes over over payment when people forgot to tag out. They ditched the zones and brought in a flat rate cash fare with a reduced flat rate on pre-pay.

I strongly feel that a similar approach is needed in Dublin. Loading times is an ongoing issue, worse now with the new ticket machines as issuing change tickets takes several seconds more than it used to.

A flat fare may seem unfair, particular for occasional users that only take short journeys but IMO the advantages in time saving would more than make up for it.

The other issue is lost revenue, bus routes in London are in general much shorter than Dublin, in particular the outer suburban routes would see a very big fare reduction however with the current pre-pay tickets there has already been a big discount available for those smart enough to look into the options.

With the farebox taken away from operators there should be far less pressure on them to use fares to maximise revenue, for years DB have been squeezed into taking bigger cuts from customers as the government pressured them to cut subsidys. Many of the pre-pay tickets which should have been heavily discounted have been increased to the point there is little incentive for many people to switch from cash payment.

A high flat rate cash fare, say €2 with an increase to €3 after a year coupled with a low pre-pay fare like €1.50 would soon see a big switch to pre-pay. It has worked in London, the level of cash payments has dropped significantly.

To cater for visitors cheap unlimited travel day/ 3 day/weekly card tickets.

On the rail side I see no valid reason why all the rail services IR, Metro and Luas should not be treated as one. It is a small city having three different rail systems is un-necessarily complex. Single and return tickets should be based on one zone system so two zones is the same cost on IE, Metro or Luas with seamless cross-platform use.

For unlimited travel tickets there should be 3 options. Bus only, Rail only (all rail) and a travelcard for all public transport. The travelcard should be much less than the cost of a bus only + a rail only.

Currently there is a big premium on having a ticket valid for multiple modes, it is a disincentive and an illogical one.

The taxsaver scheme for annual/monthly tickets needs to be made easier, it should be set up to allow employees apply for it directly with Revenue without having to have a willing employer.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Dear oh dear, have you never used a zone based integrated system? It is not "just the same as the stage based system we have". All your 'problems' highlghted above have been figured out before. The zones don't have to be hexagons or concentric circles, they can have deviations in the real world and are usually only illustrated as comcentric circles etc. on figurative maps (like the Famous UnergrounD map).

The problem of people getting nailed for going 1 stop across a zone boundary is dealt wih by having stops that straddle the boundary of both zones and are considered to be in either depending on which way you came, indeed, in Mnich you can find two or three stops on the same radial route to be considered on a zone boundary as they are relatively close together.

I'm afraid shltter that this comment (wrt stage based fares, which I still struggle with as a Dublin native) shows an amazing ignorance of how public transport should actually be provided so as to make it user friendly;

That just beggars belief quite frankly. Anyway, zonal systems allow readily undestandable integrated ticketing structures to be put in place.

But you have not answered the Question why would a zonal solution be better than the stage system currently in operation.

The problem at the moment is that the stage system is badly implemented any badly implemented system is confusing whether it is zonal or stage. The confusion is the lack of information a zonal system with no information where one zone started and another ended would be just as confusing.

The stage system that we have at the moment is actually very simple and fair the problem is that most people have no idea where stages begin or end.


Just because you do not understand the stage system and you have experienced a well implemented zonal system does not prove anything other than we have a poorly implemented system.



Here is a report by the Dept of Transport on integrated ticketing that recommends a distance based system rather than a zonal based system for Dublin for a lot of the reasons I highlighted
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2648-0.pdf

Winters

Madrid operates with one single zone for most of the city. One price, one trip. Cant see it happening here but any change from the stage system now that there are going to be more cross city lines would be a step in the right direction.

To me the stage system is outdated and confusing.

dowlingm

The City of Toronto operates a single fare zone - it used to be more than one but they got rid of it. If you are on a City service and cross the city boundary to Mississauga or Vaughan you have to pay an additional fare.

GO (Greater Toronto) Transit uses a zone system but they don't display it on the system map - they do have an online fare calculator for singles and passes.

gjim

The taxsaver scheme for annual/monthly tickets needs to be made easier, it should be set up to allow employees apply for it directly with Revenue without having to have a willing employer.

This scheme is completely misguided in my opinion. All it does is create paperwork and bureaucracy for no good reason. The government should just pay the subsidy directly to DB or IE for the eligable tickets allowing them (IE or DB) to discount the price of the tickets by the appropriate amount instead of creating a complicated scheme which requires the user to make a claim to revenue. The effect would be exactly the same (revenue neutral) except it would be easier for everyone and involve less public sector resources. I don't get the fixation we have with tax breaks is in this country as a means of distributing government largess.