How can we beat New Zealand?

Snickers Man

Oh well what a pity!!

Probably came as close as we ever did to beating the All Blacks but still came up short and deservedly so. Still, with a bit of luck, we could have turned them over. Our lineout was good. Our defence was heroic. We just didn't get the breaks going forward that we needed to to really hurt them.

O'Driscoll's try was a beauty. Zipped flat pass from D'Arcy giving him the opportunity to switch direction quickly and accelerate into the gap. Good pressure led the way to the second try too.

I thought Best played really well. A big aggressive in your face flanker. Just what you need against the Kiwis. David Wallace was very subdued though he was probably dazed after the high body check on him early on that led to Ireland's first penalty.

Our defence was fantastic but our scrum was awful. When the Kiwis sorted out their errors of the first half, we could hardly get our hands on the ball in the second. For most of the time we were just defending like crazy and hoping that the ball would break loose in such a way that a fast counter attack might have led to something.

We just can't seem to close the gap on New Zealand. This team fronted up, tackled the big men until their arms came off, made a few good attacks of their own but the All Blacks have a 'carrot-effect' way of just staying that little bit beyond us. The size,speed, pace and skill of their backs gives them a composure under pressure that we just can't match.

I still think though that the gap has closed to the extent that a modicum of luck could see us turn them over, or at least turn over the team we played today. It remains to be seen whether Henry will draft any new players in for the second Test next week.

G'wan Ireland.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Crash

In all fairness, we destroyed them in the first half - look how many of their men were down on the ground come half time and look at how tired they looked in comparison with ours. It was a combination in the second half of some stupid moves, the all blacks continuous cynical rugby, the referee's misjudgments and our teams physical fitness that finally did them in - they just couldnt stand up to the 15 or 20 minutes of pure and utter punishment we recieved. I mean, by the end O'Connell was useless as was Stringer, and only because they were dead on their feet.

Best really impressed me, but to replace best with mick O'driscoll and leave O'Connell on, when he shoulda been one of the first off (he'd put so much in that he really couldnt hold the pace by the end) and shift gleeson in for best, not as an impact sub but just to hold the game together, would have been much better.

The other major change in my mind would have been to take Darcy off - he looked dead and it would've made sense to switch trimble into centre and bring hickie in on the wing would have made a major difference. Hickie was afraid of contact after a certain point and was offloading well before he should have purely to avoid getting hit - not what you want against a team like the AB's.

Overall, I enjoyed the match - but i coulda cried at the end

thebaz

should the bull be dropped and bring in that Aussi/Ulster prop or Bracken.
Hickie does not cut it at the top level, he has the speed and abilty , but i'm afraid he's typical D4 -- gets intimated -- no heart -- remember him in SA a few years ago when he was an embarrasment.
And finally Eddie , use the bloody bench , thats what they are there for !

Amazotheamazing

Find a replacement outhalf, soon as possible.

Snickers Man

thebaz wrote:

Hickie does not cut it at the top level, he has the speed and abilty , but i'm afraid he's typical D4 -- gets intimated -- no heart --

He's got pace to burn, still. And his defence and awareness of players around him are much better too. He could still be a useful impact player.

And he's not from D4. Neither is his club/school St Mary's.

C'mon Mods. Do your job. Or else allow me to retort with unfounded inaccurate stereotypes of my own.

Snickers Man

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Find a replacement outhalf, soon as possible.

Yeah. O'Gara did not have a good game today.

Amazotheamazing

Snickers Man wrote:

Yeah. O'Gara did not have a good game today.

O'Gara hasn't played consistently well (for Munster or Ireland) since 2004, this year for Munster he had 2 stand out games Sale in TP and the semi, in the final he was relatively poor, for Ireland he mixes matches of remarkable control with games of shocking disinterest.

Btw, I know there's no one to currently replace him, but we still need to find someone.

thebaz

Snickers Man wrote:

He's got pace to burn, still. And his defence and awareness of players around him are much better too. He could still be a useful impact player.

And he's not from D4. Neither is his club/school St Mary's.

C'mon Mods. Do your job. Or else allow me to retort with unfounded inaccurate stereotypes of my own.

i said he's got pace to burn and ability, whats with lookin for "Mods" backup, oh right ok then, hes a real hard man , scared of nothing , who'd die for the cause player , fearless in fact , from the hardened hood of D6 , the new D4 .

RuggieBear

cop on to yourselfs, snickersman and thebaz

Snickers Man

Hey, I don't mind at all putting up with inaccurate jibes about D4 as long as I can call you Beyond the Pale types a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals who should be restricted tothe dark arts of tight forward play because you just don't have the intelligence and vision to make a telling backline break probably because you've all been standing too close to the muck spreader and got dung in your eyes...............

.........but the MODS don't like that level of discourse.

So no slagging D4 while I'm around OK. I won't tolerate it.

And anyway. Hickie ROCKS!!!!

thebaz

Snickers Man wrote:

Hey, I don't mind at all putting up with inaccurate jibes about D4 as long as I can call you Beyond the Pale types a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals who should be restricted tothe dark arts of tight forward play because you just don't have the intelligence and vision to make a telling backline break probably because you've all been standing too close to the muck spreader and got dung in your eyes...............

.........but the MODS don't like that level of discourse.

So no slagging D4 while I'm around OK. I won't tolerate it.

And anyway. Hickie ROCKS!!!!

i think i've told you before i'm from leinster , so i'm not getting involved in your petty munster/leinster drivvel debate, as its of no interest to me, as i support ireland first and foremost. Lighten up a bit ... yeah hickie rocks whatever

Diamondmaker

Baz... . eehhh... look at the facts

Denis Hickie:

Ireland caps/tries:52/25

leinster caps/tries:108/52

BOD

leinster 76/33 Ireland 66/29

Ehhhh nuff said. Show me a comparitive list of other players and you will see the league he is in. Also to do the above in between the serious injuries and long lay offs he had!!

lay off "Try Time":D

thebaz

Diamondmaker wrote:

Baz... . eehhh... look at the facts

Denis Hickie:

Ireland caps/tries:52/25

leinster caps/tries:108/52

BOD

leinster 76/33 Ireland 66/29

Ehhhh nuff said. Show me a comparitive list of other players and you will see the league he is in. Also to do the above in between the serious injuries and long lay offs he had!!

lay off "Try Time":D

i hope you are not trying to suggest that Hickie is a better player that O'Dricsoll, apart from the fact that Hickie plays as a winger , he is a few years older -- but the fact is they are leagues apart -- O'driscoll will do it against , any team regardless -- as stated already Hickie has huge talent , i just think he gets intimadated against serious oppostion -- sorry folks thas my opinion , and i aint going to change -- anyway my original point was in relation to changes for Saturday , and Hickie will be on the bench -- other changes such as prop , centre and possibly scrum half should be looked at - but i dont think will happen.

Diamondmaker

Baz

Obviously I would not attempt to say he is better than BOD I was merely taking opinion and bias out of the discussion and laying down the facts.
They speak for themselves a 50% score ratio for club and country...
the fact he is older than BOD is irrelevant why mention it...it is caps V tries to compare as mentioned Hickir has missed a lot of game time ovefr the years.

And your other point of dropping darcy to put Horgan in centre or trimble, Murphy or "whoever".............Nonsense. Pick one and make a case you cant just go "whoever"!!! What sense is that? it does not even make for material to debate or comment, its just drivel!

mikedragon32

Diamondmaker wrote:

Baz... . eehhh... look at the facts

Denis Hickie:

Ireland caps/tries:52/25

leinster caps/tries:108/52

BOD

leinster 76/33 Ireland 66/29

Ehhhh nuff said. Show me a comparitive list of other players and you will see the league he is in. Also to do the above in between the serious injuries and long lay offs he had!!

lay off "Try Time":D

Who was it who said "lies, damn lies and statistics"?

Would those stats take into account the fact that Hickie has more Celtic League games under his belt than BOD? My point being that Hickie's tryies may well have been against softer opposition than BODs. The statistics on their own have no context and can't be regarded with much seriousness.

As for how we beat NZ, I think we know how to do it, but can only do it for 60 minutes. It reminds me of our game in years gone by, when we were one of the best teams in the world for 3/4 of a game, but would fold in the last quarter. We don't have that pox anymore against NH opposition, but clearly, if we want to match teams like NZ ans Aus, more conditioning is required and Eddie needs to start using the bench intelligently. Players don't need to be hurt to be replaced.

Diamondmaker

Why do you ignore his international record?
Any way we can debate it all day but his job primarily was to score tries, this he does.

CL his average even better.

38/22

There is no comparison of him to BOD as a player it was as a yard stick to illustrate his scoring record.
How can you knock a winger with this record? 2nd only to BOD!
Ireland – all time leading try scorers
27 Brian O’Driscoll
25 Denis Hickie
17 Brendan Mullin
16 Geordan Murphy
15 Keith Wood
15 Kevin Maggs
14 Girvan Dempsey
14 George Stephenson
13 Shane Horgan

Nuff said....... lets leave it he is obviously useless. i agree though he currently is not the man for the team and Trimble is justifiably no1 and on great form!

besty

thebaz wrote:

Hickie does not cut it at the top level, he has the speed and abilty , but i'm afraid he's typical D4 -- gets intimated -- no heart -- remember him in SA a few years ago when he was an embarrasment

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Better use of the bench should give us the extra boost we need to beat the Kiwis. I think yesterday's performance will both help and hinder our effort in the next test.

- The All Blacks will not take us as lightly
- We will have more belief that we can overcome the rugby gods

I am quite encouraged by the progress already being made with these new selections - I just hope we can get a win from one of the remaining tests.

On an aside, Australia looked very impressive this morning against England. We will have some job trying to break down their defence.

thebaz

Diamondmaker wrote:

Baz

What sense is that? it does not even make for material to debate or comment, its just drivel!

do i have to agree to your opinions and ratings if i want to post here , sorry i did not realise that.
What has age got to do it with it :-

you brought up the statistics, so obviously if Hickie is older he will have scored more tries , than the younger O'Driscoll.

I've really touched a nerve with some regarding Hickie, i have stated many times in this thread , that he has ability, BUT, just feal he doesn't do it in the big matches , ala SA and NZ.
Am i not allowed have an opinion !!!!

RuggieBear

snickersman and the baz banned.

Pm me in a week or so

Sundy

Haha writing off hickie is hilarious, the guy still is class and showed that against toulouse and would give many a winger a lesson in finishing.

As for Trimble his positioning is very suspect, a number of times during the nz game he was poorly positioned for kicks and as for that attempted catch near the start, im confident hickie would have caught that well. Its not that trimble is not good i just dont think he is a winger and i dont understand why EOS so reguraly plays a centre on the wing..

bugler

It was Horan and not Hayes that was at the root of the problem in the scrum. Hell will freeze over before EOS will play Bracken over Hayes. I'd like to see Young come in for Horan, it would be a good measure of his scrummaging. Unfortunately, I'd imagine EOS will stick with the same front row.

spanner

inter breed with the Maoris is the only answer

prophetnz

I think you will find that task above most men :P

MarVeL

So why not the women?

prophetnz

They might split them in half lol

RuggieBear

....and lets get this back to rugby please.

Pinetree Boy

Hey boys. Take it from a Kiwi you don't beat the ABs on the wings. We generally don't give a toss who our wings are. Its your tight five and particularly your front row who you should worry about at Eden Park.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Pinetree Boy

We are never humble about rugby.

Good news for the Irish it is a miserable day in Auckland. If you can compete upfront O' Gara's kicking and your mid-field organisation might help.

RuggieBear

Pinetree Boy wrote:

We are never humble about rugby.

Good news for the Irish it is a miserable day in Auckland. If you can compete upfront O' Gara's kicking and your mid-field organisation might help.

i think we have similar skill levels in the pack just that the all blacks are bigger and stronger.....which tells in the last 20 minutes.

Paul O'Connel looked absolutely ****ed in the last 10 minutes of the match and David Wallace had to be subbed 20 mins from the end as he was wrecked.

Not sure if wet weather up front slog fest will suit Ireland

Pinetree Boy

It's your strength off the bench (and whether you choose to even use it) that may count.

There is little between the starting 15's. The AB front row may be better at scrum time but the Irish locks are a world class pair and the mid-field is stronger. The difference may be on a wet night that the ABs have some dangerous sets of fresh legs available on the bench.

Nonu may not be the cleaverist centre in the world but I wouldn' fancy having his 102kgs running at me on fresh legs after I have slogged away in the wet for 60 minutes.

Diamondmaker

:mad: 4 errors = 4 scores = 20 points !

Diamondmaker

Oh man we have them in the line outs!!!!

The scrum doing better just those early errors, we have em rattled now!:D

OHHH If we only had tiinme for that line out.....what a step by dric

youcancallmeal

We've got to maintain possession in the second half, remember last week the all blacks had like 80% possession in the second half and it just killed Ireland.

Diamondmaker

Well the stats were pretty much that in the 1st half already though! But gotta play in their half ( obviously ) kick for the corner and well have em every time couple of knock ons costing us a lot so far!

Usu story can we maintain it after 60 mins!

PHB

I hate this bloody ref

Diamondmaker

I dont htink it iss too harsh to say that ROGs missed tackles are the difference when we play these big teams!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

thebaz

havent sky -- so i take it we have no chance - whos playing well , badly ?

youcancallmeal

Yea bad missed tackle from Rog who otherwise had a good game. Even though we were beaten I'm not too annoyed because Ireland really took it to them and everyone gave it their all.

prophetnz

Well games over AB's win 27-17 (i think).

I thought both teams played well in the rain, its a shame you guys knocked it on at important times. The AB's scrum monster the irish pack.

Our 13 lacked decision making and i think we should have kicked it out abit more. You guys had the better game plan and almost had it there.

cgf

Yep - fair play to the lads - they competed for the full 80 mins today. Good effort all round

Diamondmaker

Vrey good game ! we had them on the rack for the last 10/15 of 1st half and again at start of second.
Dominating line outs forcing them to take quick ones but the wingers were alert to it and up forcing a line out proper...we had them scared here.
Scrum was better but still under massive pressure all game.

Everyone played well few early knock ons and errors( 4 cost us 20 points :mad: )

I think we would have got a try in the end of 2nd if the ref allowed that final line out of the sublime Dric break!

Got back in the game the hard way 3 point game 10 mins to go then 10 on 10 rog is steam rolled AGAIN! and try underposts. he had a good game otherwise its a shame he is SO weak in the tackle.

Basically errors and soft penalties lost us the game, the blacks kicked the pennos as they were seriously rattled in the line out.

Not the " admirable defeat and subsequent walloping" that was forecast so got to be happy but they wont be they could and should have won one or noth games!! Trimble maturing well:cool:

EdgarAllenPoo

The ref was a hell of a lot better than the last one but he still wasn't perfect. NZ pushing in the scrum before the put in, wheeling the scrum(which Ireland were then mistakenly penalised for), a knock on by Jack which the ref let go. Ireland played better than lat week and used the bench but it didn't really make much of a difference on the scoreboard compared to last week.

The main difference in the teams and this is something which I don't see being fixed is the physical condition and size of the team that is picked. Look at NZ they're all huge and rarely with an ounce of fat on them. Compare to John Hayes, not singling him out but also compare the 9's. Stringers good but it was no contest.

Diamondmaker

The main difference in the teams and this is something which I don't see being fixed is the physicaal condition and size of the team that is picked. Look at NZ they're all huge and rarely with an ounce of fat on them. Compare to John Hayes, not singling him out but also compare the 9's. Stringers good but it was no contest.[/QUOTE]


Strings, ROG and Trimble obviously satnd out as requiring a lot more mass!

PHB

ROG I felt was weak over the game, while his kicking was excellent.

He was punished by McAlister just because he is weaker, nothing he can do about that,

But his distribution was very poor. He didn't trust the Irish line and kept kicking, which didn't pay off once, instead of trying to run with it. He is in the old mode of Irish players, and he needs to change his game for Ireland to become a world class team

Diamondmaker

going to gym now to bulk up ( ROG Take Note ) what time is Eng KO?

Crash

I'm still slightly bemused by the reffing for these games - Kaplan wasn't as bad as last weeks but some of it was dodgy.

I was happy overall with the performance - felt we played much better than I was expecting.

though, i'd love if someone could tell me what exactly has being going on with the linesmen in both matches - they're there to spot infringements that the reff misses as well as touch decisions, but I havent seen a linesmen's flag raised for infringements in two games - which is bizarre.

EdgarAllenPoo

I've been wondering that myself. What's the point of having them if they do nothing, if the ref doesn't spot something and they do they should always point it out to him.

Sangre

Don't think I can fault any player's performance today if I tried. Although if I was pushed I'd have to say Murphy and D'arcy were poor in attack but played very solid defensive games.
The 2nd NZ try was definetely a knock on by Jack. The subs were brough on about 7/10 minutes too late. We shouldn't be doing it after the NZ as we're inveriably more tired then them because of their sheer size. EOS seems to be stuck in the mindset that bringing on a sub shows a poor peformance from the starting player. We have look at the game as a relay race where we pass the baton to the fresh legs at the end. Not everyone has the fitness level of Leamy.

Thought Trimble's position on defence was a bit off today but thats to be expected. Although I'd love to see him tried out in centre.