It aint what you do its the way that you do it

fuzzbox

JJ is a poxy hand.

What do you do when ...

PP 5/10 6-max
Effective stacks 1k

Villain has just sat down, this is the first action he has taken

Preflop
I open utg to 35 with JJ, utg+1 calls, co calls, button (villain) makes it 150 and its folded back to me

blehhhhh

cardshark202

Call and hit a jack. Easy

Doctor Fell

I call, bet any flop without an A or K. Or I might stop-n-go it, and bet any flop at all!

empirix

In all honestly on PPP more times than not, when i sit down my first hand is quite decent, either a high pair or AK KQ etc, i would fold here, theres always the next hand to catch em......

fuzzbox

Doctor Fell wrote:

I call, bet any flop without an A or K. Or I might stop-n-go it, and bet any flop at all!

Other than betting, whats the rest of the plan?
If/when he pushes?

Do you think JJ is good now ?

Ste05

Fcuk it, I'd just fold, you only have 35 invested, by calling you'll be giving great odds for at least one of UTG+1 or CO to call, so more than likely you'll have to play a huge multi-way pot OOP with a decent, but very marginal hand.

Raising is too dangerous.... I'd just fold...

empirix

of course PP your probably party poker, i'd still fold, bit of an expensive call to see the flop for me, let it go and try and get some sort of read on him,also would depend on how well i was doing, if doing well i'd call it

ianmc38

Fold. You don't want to play this hand oop as you'll be in limbo unless a J hits on the flop.

Doctor Fell

fuzzbox wrote:

Other than betting, whats the rest of the plan?
If/when he pushes?

Do you think JJ is good now ?

Well I don't have enough info on the player at all to answer that. If its against a total unknown, and if he pushed on the flop I'd have to re-evaluate I guess, but I'd lean towards calling especially if I'm an overpair. I don't know if its good tbh without further info on the player!

Ste05

empirix wrote:

of course PP your probably party poker, i'd still fold, bit of an expensive call to see the flop for me, let it go and try and get some sort of read on him,also would depend on how well i was doing, if doing well i'd call it

empirex, it doesn't matter whether your on PP, PPP or the moon, the way you play a hand shouldn't depend on what you think the RNG will give to someone on their first hand, or other similar superstitions.

It also doesn't matter how "well" you've been running....

fuzzbox

Doctor Fell wrote:

Well I don't have enough info on the player at all to answer that. If its against a total unknown, and if he pushed on the flop I'd have to re-evaluate I guess, but I'd lean towards calling especially if I'm an overpair. I don't know if its good tbh without further info on the player!

But you seem happy to bet the flop .... why do you want to be the flop?

Doctor Fell

fuzzbox wrote:

But you seem happy to bet the flop .... why do you want to be the flop?

Not being cheeky - I bet to win the pot. I hope he folds. Without any info on him, with no hand range to put him on, I would definitely call pre-flop and bet the flop.

empirix

Ste05 wrote:

empirex, it doesn't matter whether your on PP, PPP or the moon, the way you play a hand shouldn't depend on what you think the RNG will give to someone on their first hand, or other similar superstitions.

It also doesn't matter how "well" you've been running....

Totally agree Ste, as i said i would fold anyways, unless it was one of those days all was going well, then maybe i might be tempted etc - thats all i was saying

ianmc38

Doctor Fell wrote:

Not being cheeky - I bet to win the pot. I hope he folds. Without any info on him, with no hand range to put him on, I would definitely call pre-flop and bet the flop.

2 flops

1. AK4 - You bet. He raises. What next?
2. 248 - You bet. He raises. What next?

You're saying that you hope he folds, so essentially you're bluffing?

empirix

ianmc38 wrote:

2 flops

1. AK4 - You bet. He raises. What next?
2. 248 - You bet. He raises. What next?

You're saying that you hope he folds, so essentially you're bluffing?

Good point here, you would wanna hit him with a considerable raise if betting the flop, not a good situation to be in.

Doctor Fell

ianmc38 wrote:

2 flops

1. AK4 - You bet. He raises. What next?
2. 248 - You bet. He raises. What next?

You're saying that you hope he folds, so essentially you're bluffing?

I'm saying I hope he folds coz I've no real idea what he has (Overpair, middle pocket pair, some sort of Ace all quite likely imo), and I would like to take the decent pot right there.
In situation 1 I'd probably fold.
Sitaution 2 I'd probably call.

That's why I prefer live play, so much easier to get a read on someone!!

fuzzbox

Doctor Fell wrote:

Not being cheeky - I bet to win the pot. I hope he folds. Without any info on him, with no hand range to put him on, I would definitely call pre-flop and bet the flop.

Right, well why not make it 450 now then? Instead of waiting?

If I call, the pot will be like 400 or something. We will both have effectively 850 left ... how much are you planning to bet? And whats your plan if you bet .. say 300 and he moves in?

Gholimoli

you have two option here:

1.fold pre flop.(recommended)

2.raise him to find out if he is playing position or he actually has a hand.

to be honest a villain who has just sat down would not typically be making a move here thats why i dont think your JJ is any good.

if you call him your calling to a see a J on the flop .even if he has AK,AQ,TT or below you will have to check to him on the flop and he will bet that flop.
then you will be playing gussing games as to wether or not his got it or not.

Doctor Fell

fuzzbox wrote:

Right, well why not make it 450 now then? Instead of waiting?

If I call, the pot will be like 400 or something. We will both have effectively 850 left ... how much are you planning to bet? And whats your plan if you bet .. say 300 and he moves in?

Ok, relax please.

Its just my pov, ok?

The reason I wouldn't re-pop preflop is because I think I have a better chance of winning by stop-n-going here. Take an obvious example where he has AK: stop and go will win here (edit: on a non A or K flop) where as a pre-flop raise might lose it for me if we get it all in.
Also as I said I might not even bet with an A or K flop.
I think calling and playing on the flop is a perfectly valid option here.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

you have two option here:

1.fold pre flop.(recommended)

2.raise him to find out if he is playing position or he actually has a hand.

to be honest a villain who has just sat down would not typically be making a move here thats why i dont think your JJ is any good.

if you call him your calling to a see a J on the flop .even if he has AK,AQ,TT or below you will have to check to him on the flop and he will bet that flop.
then you will be playing gussing games as to wether or not his got it or not.

The pot right now is, 35*3 + 150 + 15 = 285 and its 115 to call, so I get 2.5:1 from the pot, and almost certainly villain will bet any flop.

Does this come into your thoughts?

fuzzbox

Doctor Fell wrote:

Ok, relax please.

Its just my pov, ok?

The reason I wouldn't re-pop preflop is because I think I have a better chance of winning by stop-n-going here. Take an obvious example where he has AK: stop and go will win here (edit: on a non A or K flop) where as a pre-flop raise might lose it for me if we get it all in.
Also as I said I might not even bet with an A or K flop.
I think calling and playing on the flop is a perfectly valid option here.

Hi Dr_Fell
Im perfectly relaxed, I'm just trying to understand why you are suggesting what you are suggesting.

I think you are missing the point - if we always bet the flop and always call a raise on a 8-high board, then we lose our stack 100% of the time Vs AA and KK and QQ and he can fold AK 100% of the time, without having bet the flop, so we dont make any more money when we are ahead, but we lose the max when we are beaten. This is not a fun situation.

If you believe we have the best hand, then why not raise now? If he has AK. we have a 5% edge, so our play will win us money in the long run, and he might even fold it, which is even better for us, as we get the free 280 pot now without having to show down cards.

Do you see?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

The pot right now is, 35*3 + 150 + 15 = 285 and its 115 to call, so I get 2.5:1 from the pot, and almost certainly villain will bet any flop.

Does this come into your thoughts?

indeed it does.
if your suggesting your getting good enough odds to call the bet im suggeting your not.fair enough your getting 2.5:1 odds but that is not enough odds just to see the flop.you will almost certainly have to fold to any flop that dosent contain a J .on the plus side will get his stack ( considering his not making a squeez play here) if you flop a J .what are the odds agint floping a J here ?
your implied odds are 1K:150 = 6.5:1 and im sure the odds against floping a set are greater than that.so fold.

Bp!

Even a bad unknown player here with AK would reraise it more (if he is going to reraise) than he did with 4 callers in the pot so that has to be ruled out

Our JJ is 100% behind IMO

Sayin that i would probably call the raise and whisper goodbye to my chips on a non J board

sorry mis read, thought 4 callers, his raise seems ok so but i believe our J's are behind nearly all the time

Doctor Fell

fuzzbox wrote:

Hi Dr_Fell
Im perfectly relaxed, I'm just trying to understand why you are suggesting what you are suggesting.

I think you are missing the point - if we always bet the flop and always call a raise on a 8-high board, then we lose our stack 100% of the time Vs AA and KK and QQ and he can fold AK 100% of the time, without having bet the flop, so we dont make any more money when we are ahead, but we lose the max when we are beaten. This is not a fun situation.

If you believe we have the best hand, then why not raise now? If he has AK. we have a 5% edge, so our play will win us money in the long run, and he might even fold it, which is even better for us, as we get the free 280 pot now without having to show down cards.

Do you see?

Fuzzbox,
Thx I can see fine.
(We don't lose 100% of the time btw, but I agree most of the time V an overpair). For clarity, I did say I would "probably" call. I probably wouldn't call all the time, I vary my play regularly.
But anyway, how often are we against the overpair here? Like I said with no range or further info or tells maybe not that often.
Fact is I don't know if I have the best hand, and I'm not raising pre-flop here to find out. I'd rather take my chances by betting the flop (most times) and like I said, re-evaluating. OK?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

indeed it does.
if your suggesting your getting good enough odds to call the bet im suggeting your not.fair enough your getting 2.5:1 odds but that is not enough odds just to see the flop.you will almost certainly have to fold to any flop that dosent contain a J .on the plus side will get his stack ( considering his not making a squeez play here) if you flop a J .what are the odds agint floping a J here ?
your implied odds are 1K:150 = 6.5:1 and im sure the odds against floping a set are greater than that.so fold.

Well its 115 to call not 150, and there is his 1k + the 85 from the others.

So 115:1085, which is approx 10:1, and I hit a set 1 in 8 right?

I might also have the best hand ...

Gholimoli

Doctor Fell wrote:

Fuzzbox,
Thx I can see fine.
(We don't lose 100% of the time btw, but I agree most of the time V an overpair). For clarity, I did say I would "probably" call. I probably wouldn't call all the time, I vary my play regularly.
But anyway, how often are we against the overpair here? Like I said with no range or further info or tells maybe not that often.
Fact is I don't know if I have the best hand, and I'm not raising pre-flop here to find out. I'd rather take my chances by betting the flop (most times) and like I said, re-evaluating. OK?

Des ,
the problem with this is you will loos much more often than you win with this line and thats why its not a good play.
your right with out information you dont know if he has over pair here but you do know that he has position.
suppose he has 89s here.
you flat call his bet and see a flop.
flop comes AK3.will you bet this flop?
if you check he will almost always bet.
will you call his bet?

now suppose flop comes 892.you bet the flop.
now he pushes?or he reraises you what is your plan?

suppose he has AK,flop comes T high .
you bet the flop and he shoves.
will you call him?

now if you reraise him pre flop.he will drop 89 and all thoes sh1t he that he may have been pulling a move with and he will reraise with AA,KK and he may or may not call with AK.the raise will allow you to narrow his range a great deal.

Doctor Fell

Gholimoli wrote:

Des ,
the problem with this is you will loos much more often than you win with this line and thats why its not a good play.
your right with out information you dont know if he has over pair here but you do know that he has position.
suppose he has 89s here.
you flat call his bet and see a flop.
flop comes AK3.will you bet this flop?
if you check he will almost always bet.
will you call his bet?

now suppose flop comes 892.you bet the flop.
now he pushes?or he reraises you what is your plan?

suppose he has AK,flop comes T high .
you bet the flop and he shoves.
will you call him?

now if you reraise him pre flop.he will drop 89 and all thoes sh1t he that he may have been pulling a move with and he will reraise with AA,KK and he may or may not call with AK.the raise will allow you to narrow his range a great deal.

Gholi,

I'm not Des, I think you're thinking of Doc Farrell.
I'm not convinced I lose as often as you say. I agree he'd be right to bet, but like I said I will probably bet first, not giving him the chance. On a AK3 flop will he reraise me with 89? Like I also said I probably would call a raise on a 893 flop, and of course its possible I'd get screwed!

Problem with raise preflop is how much do you raise without being committed? Any decent raise here and you will be pot-committed imo, so I don't like it. I prefer to take it from the flop in this particular case.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Well its 115 to call not 150, and there is his 1k + the 85 from the others.

So 115:1085, which is approx 10:1, and I hit a set 1 in 8 right?

I might also have the best hand ...

i donno where i have this in my head from but i thought the odds against PP making a set on the flop is 11:1.(am i way off here ?)
you sometimes having the best hand here does not come into play at all as we are dropping the hand if we dont hit a J on the flop whether its the best hand or not.

5starpool

Gholi: It is between 7.5-8/1 to hit a set on the flop with a PP.

ntlbell

What did you do in the end Fuzz?