should i bet this river?

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 12:44pm #1

3/6 cash game
villain(tymuppet):
he is a very aggro LAG player.calls raises with almost any two.has little respect in or out of position.his logic is that he can to take the pot from you post flop seen as he is better than most players post flop and he reads hands well.
He is not scared or shy of putting big bets out there just to make you fold but hig big bets could also be monster hands.tricky player over all.

Stacks:
Me:650
Villain 600

Hand:
I raise to 30 from button with AK hearts.villain calls from BB.

Flop(63)
Th Jh 5d

Villain checks . I bet the 60(thoughts?) .villain calls.

Turn (183)
4d
villain fires 50 bet.i don’t know what to make of this bet.i know he is not strong at all but I also know that I have a very good draw at the moment but that’s it.
I could try to move him off a hand but I feel like it’s a bad move against this player to ever trying to move him off a hand with nothing specially if I have a good draw like this.so I just flat call the bet.

River(283)
Kc

Villain bets another 50 .now im sure he is not strong and I prob have the best hand right now but I also felt the pot was large enough at the moment so I just called the bet.
He showed J3o and I won the pot. should I have bet the river here?
Comments on general play welcome.

careca · 07-06-2006 12:53pm

I would just play the river the same way. Can you raise him and still get away from the hand if he comes back over the top ? Probably not given the stacks involved. Basically i think if you are raising then you are saying you are willing to risk all your chips with TPTK. It might be weak but I would be thankful that I got lucky on the river and take the pot there and then.

Edit to say, if i didn't hit on the river could be the time to raise

fuzzbox · 07-06-2006 12:56pm

I might push the turn
I might minraise the river if I played it like this.

Ollieboy · 07-06-2006 12:58pm

I think the question here is, if you raised and he push all-in would you have been able to call, the answer would be a yes with tptk and so much already invested, but you still weren't sure that you were really ahead and his betting pattern is all over the place here, ie usually bets bigger.

But I would be happy to take the pot down here with whats in it.

ocallagh · 07-06-2006 1:01pm

I think calling is fine. If he is a good LAG player he knows when to drop a hand so he won't pay you off with anything you can beat.

You *could* respresent a missed flush draw.. and depending on how you have played so far in this session you might be able to represent it, but even still.. he might have something like KJ and you go broke.

To sum up, your hand is not very strong on that board and I don't think there's any value in raising on the river.

breadmonkey · 07-06-2006 1:09pm

Does Gholi not come across as weak when he raises the flop and then flat calls the turn? i.e. Would you reraise the turn if you had a K off the flop?

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 1:16pm

fuzzbox wrote:

I might push the turn

no chance this player folds

i really like a raise on this river given how the hand panned out

ianmc38 · 07-06-2006 1:18pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

i really like a raise on this river given how the hand panned out

LOL.

ocallagh wrote:

To sum up, your hand is not very strong on that board and I don't think there's any value in raising on the river.

That's exactly my thinking.

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 1:27pm

See the way the hand was played I think villain would have pay for another 100 at least thinking ive missed my flush draw.
Especially the way I played the turn passively indicating I’m on a draw .
Now as pointed out the question would be would I be happy to play the hand for my stack and I think I would be in this case .i think if villain had TPTK beat he would deffo bet more on the river. this particular villain may be able to drop pair but im sure he is more than happy to go to the felt with any two pair even if there is possible str/flush on board.

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 1:33pm

Against a normal player a raise here is marginally bad, against this guy when he bets 50 on the river flat calling is awful play IMO. He definitlly does not have a strong hand, and there are a tonne of draws that missed. Apart from being a LAG this guy is a total calling station.

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 1:39pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

Against a normal player a raise here is marginally bad, against this guy when he bets 50 on the river flat calling is awful play IMO. He definitlly does not have a strong hand, and there are a tonne of draws that missed. Apart from being a LAG this guy is a total calling station.

i agree thats why i made th post .i think the correct play would have been to bet at least another 100 here knowing he will pay off.

ocallagh · 07-06-2006 1:41pm

I'm not familiar with tymuppet or any tribeca cash players. if he is a terrible LAG player then maybe a raise on the river is ok.. but agaist your standard LAG I much prefer the call.

cardshark202 · 07-06-2006 1:44pm

How does this guy make money when he plays like this. Against this sort of madman I agree that making it another 100 or so is good.

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 1:48pm

he makes money because people bluff him constantly, dont read his hands well and dont value bet aggressively against him

careca · 07-06-2006 1:51pm

cardshark202 wrote:

How does this guy make money when he plays like this. Against this sort of madman I agree that making it another 100 or so is good.

Thats exactly how he makes money. When he hits two pair with his J3 and gholi (or someone like him) thinks he has a very good read on him and comes over the top on the river. If you are absolutely sure the 50 bet means he has very little, then by all means raise, but you could be asking for trouble. Still happy to take the pot there with the call

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 1:53pm

careca wrote:

Thats exactly how he makes money. When he hits two pair with his J3 and gholi (or someone like him) thinks he has a very good read on him and comes over the top on the river. If you are absolutely sure the 50 bet means he has very little, then by all means raise, but you could be asking for trouble. Still happy to take the pot there with the call

the 50 bet is a blocking bet so he gets to a showdown with whatever rubbish he has. He would of bet much bigger as a bluff or a better than 1 pair hand.

careca · 07-06-2006 1:58pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

he makes money because people bluff him constantly, dont read his hands well and dont value bet aggressively against him

I wont get into a quote war with you but I think he is exactly the player I wouldnt bluff against because he is likely to call with any two (as you said yourself). Ok his hands are hard to read but he could just have easily had J4 rather than J3, and yes I know the betting patterns suggest otherwise.

I know you are never one to base plays on results, but if you had raised 100 and he comes over the top, what then ?

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 1:59pm

careca wrote:

Thats exactly how he makes money. When he hits two pair with his J3 and gholi (or someone like him) thinks he has a very good read on him and comes over the top on the river. If you are absolutely sure the 50 bet means he has very little, then by all means raise, but you could be asking for trouble. Still happy to take the pot there with the call

If you play with this guy you will know that his 50 bet just means “I have something, I want to go to showdown with my something as cheap as possible ,im willing to pay 50 to see if I have the best hand or not,im also willing to pay another 100 or so cuz I really think I may have the best hand…”
This guy would bet much higher if he had TPTK beat .the reason why he best higher is because ppl think he is bluffing when he bets big and so when he has a big hand he does bet big.
Infact if he had bet big here I would have never though about raising him and the whole basis of me making this post was that his bet was small.

careca · 07-06-2006 2:00pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

the 50 bet is a blocking bet so he gets to a showdown with whatever rubbish he has. He would of bet much bigger as a bluff or a better than 1 pair hand.

not sure at all about this. what was the turn bet so, another blocker ? with a flush draw out there ?

fuzzbox · 07-06-2006 2:01pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

no chance this player folds

This player bets 50 on the turn precisely because he wants to "find out where he's at". He is almost certainly weak, and will fold a large % of the time. And those times that he doesnt, we probably have upwards of 15 outs ... position, and the river to play.

I didnt pay attention to the stack sizes, maybe just raise, rather than push the turn. Then shove the rest in on this river.

careca · 07-06-2006 2:03pm

Gholimoli wrote:

If you play with this guy you will know that his 50 bet just means “I have something, I want to go to showdown with my something as cheap as possible ,im willing to pay 50 to see if I have the best hand or not,im also willing to pay another 100 or so cuz I really think I may have the best hand…”

Ok, never played with him (that I can remember) but if you can be that sure, then I would not have posted the Q in the first place (and i'm not being smart here) because its obvious what to do. I would need to see a lot more HH from this player before I could tow that line and I also wouldn't throw it out as a normal play against all LAG,s.

ianmc38 · 07-06-2006 2:04pm

Gholimoli wrote:

If you play with this guy you will know that his 50 bet just means “I have something, I want to go to showdown with my something as cheap as possible ,im willing to pay 50 to see if I have the best hand or not,im also willing to pay another 100 or so cuz I really think I may have the best hand…”
This guy would bet much higher if he had TPTK beat .the reason why he best higher is because ppl think he is bluffing when he bets big and so when he has a big hand he does bet big.
Infact if he had bet big here I would have never though about raising him and the whole basis of me making this post was that his bet was small.

why ask the question if you know the answer?

against a standard lag flat calling the river is better imho.

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 2:07pm

fuzzbox wrote:

This player bets 50 on the turn precisely because he wants to "find out where he's at". He is almost certainly weak, and will fold a large % of the time. And those times that he doesnt, we probably have upwards of 15 outs ... position, and the river to play.

I didnt pay attention to the stack sizes, maybe just raise, rather than push the turn. Then shove the rest in on this river.

Fuzz im certain if I raise he will call.if I push he would prob fold this hand here but then again im too deep to push here.
Based on the fact that at the moment I actually think im behind and I need to improve to win this hand.also the fact that I will make no attempt on trying to move this dude of a hand after the turn cuz I feel I have 0 FE against this dude. based on these do you not feel that calling the turn is best play here?

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 2:11pm

ianmc38 wrote:

why ask the question if you know the answer?

against a standard lag flat calling the river is better imho.

Ian,
i had an idea that it was the right play but i wasnt sure.
also i wasnt sure about the turn play thats why i made the post.

Gholimoli · 07-06-2006 2:15pm

careca wrote:

Ok, never played with him (that I can remember) but if you can be that sure, then I would not have posted the Q in the first place (and i'm not being smart here) because its obvious what to do. I would need to see a lot more HH from this player before I could tow that line and I also wouldn't throw it out as a normal play against all LAG,s.

Jesus lads,
I posted the hand cuz I wasn’t sure about the best way of playing the river.i had an idea but I wanted to here other ideas as well.also when posting a hand often something comes up that you have missed all together that you can gain from.
Now I apologies if I have wasted you time with this post and please feel free to bill me for the time it took you to read and respond to this.

fuzzbox · 07-06-2006 2:24pm

Gholimoli wrote:

Fuzz im certain if I raise he will call.if I push he would prob fold this hand here but then again im too deep to push here.
Based on the fact that at the moment I actually think im behind and I need to improve to win this hand.also the fact that I will make no attempt on trying to move this dude of a hand after the turn cuz I feel I have 0 FE against this dude. based on these do you not feel that calling the turn is best play here?

Yo Gholi,
Hmm, I think you have FE here, but whatever ... you can raise the turn for value, because he surely wont push with J3 here, hes not that type. So make it 150 on the turn, and now shove the K on the river.

Also - if you think he calls too much, then you absolutely must raise this river, and raise it hard too.

I think you underestimate your FE on the turn. And in fairness, if we are called we have 9*hearts + 3 non-heart Q, + 3 A + 3 K for an 18 out draw, so even if you raise the turn to about pot, and he calls, then you have received 2:1 for your bet, and you are better than 2:1 to make your hand on the river ... AND you get paid on a lot of river cards.

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 2:25pm

careca wrote:

I wont get into a quote war with you but I think he is exactly the player I wouldnt bluff against because he is likely to call with any two (as you said yourself). Ok his hands are hard to read but he could just have easily had J4 rather than J3, and yes I know the betting patterns suggest otherwise.

I know you are never one to base plays on results, but if you had raised 100 and he comes over the top, what then ?

If he comes over the top on the river he has a monster, so Id fold.

careca · 07-06-2006 2:27pm

Gholimoli wrote:

Jesus lads,
I posted the hand cuz I wasn’t sure about the best way of playing the river.i had an idea but I wanted to here other ideas as well.also when posting a hand often something comes up that you have missed all together that you can gain from.
Now I apologies if I have wasted you time with this post and please feel free to bill me for the time it took you to read and respond to this.

LMAO. Honestly wasn't being smart, just more info given in later post than op.

ps whats your address for the invoice

fuzzbox · 07-06-2006 2:30pm

btw - the pot is 180 on the turn, and he bets 50.
You have 520 left (or so). If you make it 200 to play then the bet itself is likely profitable given your hand and given the player. If he calls the 150 more, then you can get the rest in easy on any river that you improve on, as the pot would be 580 and you would have 320 left, and since he called the turn, he prolly calls the river.

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 2:31pm

fuzzbox wrote:

This player bets 50 on the turn precisely because he wants to "find out where he's at". He is almost certainly weak, and will fold a large % of the time. And those times that he doesnt, we probably have upwards of 15 outs ... position, and the river to play.

I didnt pay attention to the stack sizes, maybe just raise, rather than push the turn. Then shove the rest in on this river.

If he has top pair he will almost certainly call. Ive seen him do it a huge amount of times, he doesnt bet 50 to see wheres hes at, he already knows that he has top pair and isnt folding. Were not talking about a type of player here, its a specific player. He may well fold some of the draws he has or some very weak pairs, but thats it. I think he folds a jack just about never.

If he calls the turn then pushing the river unimproved is akin to taking your money and giving it to some homeless guy on the street, except you wont feel good about it afterwards. He will fold missed draws (if he hasnt pushed) and thats about it.

henbane · 07-06-2006 2:33pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

If he calls the turn then pushing the river unimproved is akin to taking your money and giving it to some homeless guy on the street, except you wont feel good about it afterwards

gg wp

fuzzbox · 07-06-2006 2:33pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

If he has top pair he will almost certainly call. Ive seen him do it a huge amount of times, he doesnt bet 50 to see wheres hes at, he already knows that he has top pair and isnt folding. Were not talking about a type of player here, its a specific player. He may well fold some of the draws he has or some very weak pairs, but thats it. I think he folds a jack just about never.

If he calls the turn then pushing the river unimproved is akin to taking your money and giving it to some homeless guy on the street, except you wont feel good about it afterwards. He will fold missed draws (if he hasnt pushed) and thats about it.

Obv, we push THIS river, but not an unimproving one, if he calls.

If he has top pair 60% of the time, and 2nd pair 35% of the time and some random other hand 5% and he folds all the 2nd pairs and random hands, then making it 200 here, will turn a profit on its own. If he then calls with tp, then we have a very good chance of getting the rest on the river if we improve.

Hectorjelly · 07-06-2006 2:37pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Obv, we push THIS river, but not an unimproving one, if he calls.

If he has top pair 60% of the time, and 2nd pair 35% of the time and some random other hand 5% and he folds all the 2nd pairs and random hands, then making it 200 here, will turn a profit on its own. If he then calls with tp, then we have a very good chance of getting the rest on the river if we improve.

I hadnt read your latest post, I thought your plan was to raise turn then get it in on any river. I like your line allthough I think i would just call the turn