IPT €3K event hand that I couldn't get away from

NickyOD

I think I played this hand ok. I don't shy away from races like this early in a tournament but I do try and give my oponent every chance to fold. Is this just one of those hand where you double up or go broke or is there a better way to play the hand?

With blinds 150-300 I was dealt Ac-8s in the BB and a mid position player who up to this point had been fairly quiet made it 750. Only I called. Normally I would just fold this hand to a standard raise but he made it very cheap for me to see a flop and I really didn't sense any enormous strangth from him and was confident my Ace was live. At the start of the hand I have about 11K and the villain has 10K.

The flop came 8c-Qc-6c. A great flop for me and I felt I should be able to win a decent pot without showing my hand. I debated leading the flop but was confident if I check raised I would take the pot there and then. He bet 1200 and I made it 3500. He thought for a few minutes. I was certain he was weak but for some reason he was determined not to give up the hand. I felt at best he was holding KQ or possibly TT/JJ. To my astonishment he pushed all in. It was another 5.5K for me to win the 16.5K that was already in the pot so it was really a no brainer despite the4 fact it would leave me crippled with just 900. I can't possibly fold. I was confident any 8 or Ace would be as good as any club. As I suspected the villain turned over Jacks with the Jack of Clubs and I missed my draw.

Flop 8c-Qc-6c

Jh-Jc: 51.21%
Ac-8s: 48.78%

bohsman

How much were you left with after the hand? If I call preflop I lead the flop but Im definitely calling the allin.

padraig_f

I would fold it pre-flop, not a nice hand to play out of position to a raise, particularly against a quiet player. I'm not sure how you can be so confident he didn't have a higher ace (what did you put him on then?).

On the flop, I think with the shallow stacks check-raising is the right idea, but check-raising all-in is better.

Jaden

What hand did you put him on pre-flop? Against a tight player, I'd consider folding this. Some people like to race early on, and that's as good a method of play as any.

You mave middle pair and a flush draw, you must know you are behind on the flop, why inflate the pot?

Interesting hand, I don't think either player could be faulted for their play. Brave push. Takes balls to do that (or to call it).

ianmc38

After he pushes, it's an insta-call from you. I think you played the hand correctly.

padraig_f

ianmc38 wrote:

After he pushes, it's an insta-call from you. I think you played the hand correctly.

If you're going to insta-call a push, isn't pushing yourself better?

Ollieboy

Ul Nicky.

I personally would have fold preflop, A8 is a junk hand and I dont think it was worth an extra 600 to see the flop, after the flop you have to push and try to show strenght, I dont think is push with JJ on a Q high board was great, but than maybe he had you on a flush draw. When he push, you had to call.

If an Ace and come on the flop, you would have got no action from him, so I dont think the hand really had any implied odds.


Just my thoughts.

edit, sorry 450 to see the flop, think I still would have gave it up, I would only like to limp in late position with this hand.

ianmc38

It only cost Nicky 450 to see the flop.

Hitman Actual

Ollieboy wrote:

Ul Nicky.
If an Ace and come on the flop, you would have got no action from him

Yeah you would, from a better Ace!

I know it's cheap pre-flop, but I think it's still a very marginal call against a quiet player. I probably fold. But if I'm in, I'm going to lead the flop. The check-raise set you up for his push (I know it was unexpected), but maybe you should have check-raised all-in if you're going to raise at all... crude, I know. As played out, assuming your read is good (which it was) the call is a no-brainer.

Any more info on the player e.g. any other hands that he played? I dont like trying to push players off hands if I dont know much about them. Too bloody unpredictable!

Ollieboy

lenny_leonard wrote:

Yeah you would, from a better Ace!

Sorry, I meant if Nicky's read was correct and if he had a better ace, its action you dont want....

RoundTower

I would have played the hand the same way. Against a good player I would often just fold preflop.

Norwich Fan Rob

i woulda almost always fold this preflop in a nicely structured tournament.
Yes, its 450 to see a flop, but its the sort of hand that can get u in trouble.

Once the flop came, i would check raise all in, as if he bets, and i raise, i cant pass, i really want him to pass, as im not ahead currently, so the more pressure i can put on him the better, let him know he has to call for his tournament.

Alternatively, i would call the flop if he bet smallish and open push the turn.

Hitman Actual

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Alternatively, i would call the flop if he bet smallish and open push the turn.

Assuming you miss on the turn, do you have enough folding equity to make up for the fact that you're now a dog in the hand? I think it's marginal.

Norwich Fan Rob

i think u do, villian has 2k in the pot, and 8k behind, and this call push looks like a Q that wanted to see a non club turn, to give a flush draw no odds.

Gholimoli

as Rob pointed out i think this is a fold pre flop.
i understand that it was not that much more to you but Then again we all think we can let it go unless we flop a monster yet we get carried a way if an A falls or flop comes 8 high or we flop a draw that we cant let go and before you know it you have lost a big pot.
As the hand was played I think a check raise was very good move however I would check raise all in here.
You really want him to fold (and trust me with that board fold he will) but if he doesn’t you have outs.
The problem with raising but not rasing all in is that you are giving the option to villain here. Remember that our check raise was a semi bluff here meaning that a lot of our EV here comes from villain folding and he we know his not going to fold then the move would become –EV so I think we should play it in that manner. make him first choose for his tournament life and making him decide if he wants to put all his chips in on that board but also know that even though you don’t want him to you can still win the hand if he does.

ocallagh

The call pre-flop is only profitable against certain opponents.. weak tight etc.. It's tough to play A8 out of position and in the long run, against any decent opponent I think I lose more than I win out of this one.

After the flop you played it fine. As Rob mentioned if you can get into a position to push and put your opponent to a real decision I would try and do so. With the stacks in play I don't know how easy that would be... maybe lead for 900 allowing him to make it 3k or something.. and then push??

RoundTower

I think c/r to 3500 is fine, it is almost as committal, and a big overbet push looks exactly like you have the Ac and not much else. Would you really push here with a flush or a set? Maybe make it 4000 if you really want to look serious.

MrPillowTalk

I would play it exactly the same way, I would make the call pre flop knowing it is at best break even but I find if you play these marginal ones and navigate past them it is a lot easier to get paid when you play a big hand the same way.

MrPillowTalk

Gholimoli wrote:

as Rob pointed out i think this is a fold pre flop.
i understand that it was not that much more to you but Then again we all think we can let it go unless we flop a monster yet we get carried a way if an A falls or flop comes 8 high or we flop a draw that we cant let go and before you know it you have lost a big pot.
As the hand was played I think a check raise was very good move however I would check raise all in here.
You really want him to fold (and trust me with that board fold he will) but if he doesn’t you have outs.
The problem with raising but not rasing all in is that you are giving the option to villain here. Remember that our check raise was a semi bluff here meaning that a lot of our EV here comes from villain folding and he we know his not going to fold then the move would become –EV so I think we should play it in that manner. make him first choose for his tournament life and making him decide if he wants to put all his chips in on that board but also know that even though you don’t want him to you can still win the hand if he does.

I like what your saying about c/raising all in to increase the fold equity, however if someone moves in on me on that board it woud scream "I have the nut draw!" if I had the JJ I would call.

one of those hand I like Nickys line and I like the c/r all in and I also like leading and reraising a moderate raise all in or if he calls pushing the turn.

ocallagh

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I would play it exactly the same way, I would make the call pre flop knowing it is at best break even but I find if you play these marginal ones and navigate past them it is a lot easier to get paid when you play a big hand the same way.

good point eoin and one i hadn't even thought about!

mewso

Obviously it must be terrible to check call to the river but thats what I would do (once I've called pre-flop). I don't understand the eagerness to get jiggy with all your chips and lets be clear it's you that has made him push so you have made the decision in effect to put all your chips in once the flop comes. Thats fine but if you call the flop alot of players will check the turn and you get a free river card and then you will probably have an easy decision on the river.

Gholimoli

musician wrote:

Obviously it must be terrible to check call to the river but thats what I would do (once I've called pre-flop). I don't understand the eagerness to get jiggy with all your chips and lets be clear it's you that has made him push so you have made the decision in effect to put all your chips in once the flop comes. Thats fine but if you call the flop alot of players will check the turn and you get a free river card and then you will probably have an easy decision on the river.

This is not true at all Muso.you will only get a free card here against very very bad players.
Think about it ,your in position and villain has checked to you on a dangerous and draw heavy board ,why would you want to check behind here?
The only reason you may check behind here is if your on the come your self so any made hand would be at fault to give you a free card here specially in position.

Gholimoli

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I like what your saying about c/raising all in to increase the fold equity, however if someone moves in on me on that board it woud scream "I have the nut draw!" if I had the JJ I would call.

one of those hand I like Nickys line and I like the c/r all in and I also like leading and reraising a moderate raise all in or if he calls pushing the turn.

Eoin ,
I agree with you that the hand looks like a nut draw but that’s fine.the point here is looks like but I would play 98c or almost any made flush but the nut flush the same way.
The problem with check/raising something small is that ,if your bet gets called you will then have to move in on the turn no matter what. can you imagine check/raising the flop and then checking the turn here?disaster.
Now if the turn brings another club you most deffo will not get paid no matter what you do.if it does not bring a club you will have to move in any way expect there is only one card to come and villain is getting even better odds to call you here so you have lost a lot of FE if you move on the turn instead of the flop.

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

This is not true at all Muso.you will only get a free card here against very very bad players.
Think about it ,your in position and villain has checked to you on a dangerous and draw heavy board ,why would you want to check behind here?
The only reason you may check behind here is if your on the come your self so any made hand would be at fault to give you a free card here specially in position.

I would usually check behind JJ (with or without a club) on the turn here. Is this not standard?

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

I would usually check behind JJ (with or without a club) on the turn here. Is this not standard?

Well I wouldn’t check behind here. Would you call a bet if another club fell on the river lower than J.if you would then you have given villain a free chance to make his hand and then you have paid him when he has.
I would bet the turn here if checked to .you not only have clubs to protect against but you also have Q,K,A to be protecting against .
I don’t think checking behind is a good play here.

RoundTower

well yeah but I don't expect I necessarily have the best hand.

mewso

Gholimoli wrote:

This is not true at all Muso.you will only get a free card here against very very bad players.
Think about it ,your in position and villain has checked to you on a dangerous and draw heavy board ,why would you want to check behind here?
The only reason you may check behind here is if your on the come your self so any made hand would be at fault to give you a free card here specially in position.

Theres no guarantee hes as good as you think but my point was not that you will deffinately get a free card but that you may not have to pay all your chips to find out if your hand is good. I'm saying that I'm not eager to get all my chips into the middle (which the check raise causes) when it only costs 1200 to see another card. A check call is not a weak play because your opponent will be worried about what you have. He may as he should take a shot on the turn but you can make a judgement call then on the whether you are getting the right odds to keep going. Nicky's play is fine imo but I'm just saying there is an alternative and either works. My option is the choice I would most likely make.

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

well yeah but I don't expect I necessarily have the best hand.

villain has not shown anything to suggest that you dont have the best hand.
AA,KK would more than likely reraise pre-flop.
QQ is possible .but so is TT,99,88,AK,AQ bla bla.
the point is villain has not shown anything to suggest that you dont have the best hand right now.

Gholimoli

musician wrote:

Theres no guarantee hes as good as you think but my point was not that you will deffinately get a free card but that you may not have to pay all your chips to find out if your hand is good. I'm saying that I'm not eager to get all my chips into the middle (which the check raise causes) when it only costs 1200 to see another card. A check call is not a weak play because your opponent will be worried about what you have. He may as he should take a shot on the turn but you can make a judgement call then on the whether you are getting the right odds to keep going. Nicky's play is fine imo but I'm just saying there is an alternative and either works. My option is the choice I would most likely make.

Your getting slightly better than 3:1 to flat call his bet to see the turn.
You need at least 4:1 here. you can say well implied odds would make up the missing odds but in this case you have no implied odds, as the 4th club would really make the board scary.
You should maximize you chances of winning the pot here and flat calling does not do that. i understand you saying you not wanting to commit much chips here with just the nut draw but the route your suggesting commits some chips whit much less chance of winning the pot.

mewso

Good point Gholi. The way seems clearer now.

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

Your getting slightly better than 3:1 to flat call his bet to see the turn.
You need at least 4:1 here. you can say well implied odds would make up the missing odds but in this case you have no implied odds, as the 4th club would really make the board scary.

I think your odds are better than 3/1 because your 8's are almost certainly good cards, and your Aces more than likely are (given Nickys read of TT/JJ/KQ then your Aces are good too). I'd say you're about 2/1 to improve on the turn, off the top of my head.

Also, I think implied odds might come into play here, as villain appears happy enough with his third nut flush draw along with his JJ.

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think your odds are better than 3/1 because your 8's are almost certainly good cards, and your Aces more than likely are (given Nickys read of TT/JJ/KQ then your Aces are good too). I'd say you're about 2/1 to improve on the turn, off the top of my head.

Also, I think implied odds might come into play here, as villain appears happy enough with his third nut flush draw along with his JJ.

Lenny,
the 3:1 odds i mentioed was the odds offered to hero from the pot and not the odds against him improving.

also you mentioned that the odds against him improving is 2:1.while that very well maybe it's also possible that hero improves on the turn yet does not have the best hand so even though the hand improves it is still the loosing hand.

when you counting outs you genreally dont count your runner runners as outs as the odds against them happening are small as in counting your 8s as outs.

when your chasing a draw or your hand is on the come you typically wanna be sure that if you hit your draw your hand will be the best hand(or very very close to it) and calculate your odds that way.other wise you have to adjust your calculations in a manner that reflecets all thoes times that you improve yet still loose the hand and then draw a whole new sets of odds for the particular hand your holding.

implied odds dont apply as we have not seen anything from villain to suggest that he is a donkey and will pay off bets on 4 flush board with his J which is 4th best hand.
also when we are making the decision we dont know that villain has Jc,for all we know he could have two red aces and will deffo shut down in the face of 4th club.

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

Lenny,
the 3:1 odds i mentioed was the odds offered to hero from the pot and not the odds against him improving.

also you mentioned that the odds against him improving is 2:1.while that very well maybe it's also possible that hero improves on the turn yet does not have the best hand so even though the hand improves it is still the loosing hand.

when you counting outs you genreally dont count your runner runners as outs as the odds against them happening are small as in counting your 8s as outs.

when your chasing a draw or your hand is on the come you typically wanna be sure that if you hit your draw your hand will be the best hand(or very very close to it) and calculate your odds that way.other wise you have to adjust your calculations in a manner that reflecets all thoes times that you improve yet still loose the hand and then draw a whole new sets of odds for the particular hand your holding.

implied odds dont apply as we have not seen anything from villain to suggest that he is a donkey and will pay off bets on 4 flush board with his J which is 4th best hand.
also when we are making the decision we dont know that villain has Jc,for all we know he could have two red aces and will deffo shut down in the face of 4th club.

Why would you count the 8's or A's as runner runner outs? If Nicky has his opponent on a high pair (TT-KK) then any 8 or any A on the turn will put him ahead, so he has 14 clean out on the turn and getting around 3-1 on this is enough to justify flat calling. If all the money goes in on the flop then with these 14 clean outs it is nearly an even money shot, and although I don't like having to get it in here I often would, especially if I thought I had some fold equity with the c/r. Once the c/r is reraised all in then there is no real decision to make, the call has to be made.

Personally I would probably have led the betting on this flop though rather than c/r.

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

Lenny,
the 3:1 odds i mentioed was the odds offered to hero from the pot and not the odds against him improving.

Sorry, typo on my part, I know the 4/1 odds you're talking about are for drawing to the flush on the turn. As for the rest of what I was trying to say here, 5starpool explains it better.

Also, I think a good player is justifed in using the number of outs he thinks he has, depending on what he puts his opponent on. That, for me, is one of the qualities of better players: they can put their opponents on narrower hand ranges, and make better decisions because of it. NickyOD has proved himself to be one of the better readers on this board of players hands.

Gholimoli wrote:

also when we are making the decision we dont know that villain has Jc,for all we know he could have two red aces and will deffo shut down in the face of 4th club.

Fair enough, I was stating this with some after-the-fact knowledge. But at the same time, I think villain is pushing here thinking that his third nut flush draw is good with his jacks, so it may be safe to assume that he would call any bets if the flush did come. Still, it's not much use to you in the hand.

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

Why would you count the 8's or A's as runner runner outs? If Nicky has his opponent on a high pair (TT-KK) then any 8 or any A on the turn will put him ahead, so he has 14 clean out on the turn and getting around 3-1 on this is enough to justify flat calling. If all the money goes in on the flop then with these 14 clean outs it is nearly an even money shot, and although I don't like having to get it in here I often would, especially if I thought I had some fold equity with the c/r. Once the c/r is reraised all in then there is no real decision to make, the call has to be made.

Personally I would probably have led the betting on this flop though rather than c/r.

I didn’t realize there was 8 on the flop.
While an 8 could certainly be an out I wouldn’t count an A as an out here.
Villain would have QQ,AA here sometimes as well so saying hero has 14 clean outs is I think over estimating the strength of your hand. the point im trying to make is that when your drawing and paying for your draws you want to be sure that if your draw hits you will certainly have the best hand (or very close to being certain).
Its like having 22 and paying to chase on a 3345 board and counting your 6 as an out.
Although a 6 may improve your hand it may give villain a better hand than yours so it often not correct to count them as outs.

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

Fair enough, I was stating this with some after-the-fact knowledge. But at the same time, I think villain is pushing here thinking that his third nut flush draw is good with his jacks, so it may be safe to assume that he would call any bets if the flush did come. Still, it's not much use to you in the hand.

villain is not pushing here becuase he thinks his J high flush would be good.
villain is pushing cuz :
1.he thinks his hand is good now.
2.he does not want you to improve to a hand that is better than his.
3.he thinks that even if you call his push he still may have some winning chances with his J high flush draw.
its the comination of these that makes villain push here.villain dosent really want a call here.

connie147

hi nicky,
I think it boils down to the fact that the original call with A-8 was the big mistake in the hand.Its grand to say it was only another 450 to call but it eventually cost you all your chips to call.You might think he has a pocket pair but he can just as well have A-Q,A-K .The only flop your gonna be happy with is A-8-x or 8-8-x.In a 3k buy in tourney I personally dont think calling a raise with A-8 ,specially early on,is of any benefit (unless you know enough about the villian to be fairly sure you can get him off the hand later).
As it played I would have led out on the flop and re-avaluated after his action.If you had led he probably would have to put you on the Q,specially if he reraised and you pushed all-in.Its always easier in hindsight though.You got unlucky but I think it goes back to the original call.

RoundTower

connie147 wrote:

hi nicky,
I think it boils down to the fact that the original call with A-8 was the big mistake in the hand.Its grand to say it was only another 450 to call but it eventually cost you all your chips to call.You might think he has a pocket pair but he can just as well have A-Q,A-K .The only flop your gonna be happy with is A-8-x or 8-8-x.In a 3k buy in tourney I personally dont think calling a raise with A-8 ,specially early on,is of any benefit (unless you know enough about the villian to be fairly sure you can get him off the hand later).
As it played I would have led out on the flop and re-avaluated after his action.If you had led he probably would have to put you on the Q,specially if he reraised and you pushed all-in.Its always easier in hindsight though.You got unlucky but I think it goes back to the original call.

How does this hand show that the original call is bad? Nicky got his money in on the flop with a 50% chance of winning the pot, and had a good chance to win 2000 chips uncontested. This is just being results-oriented: he lost the pot and got knocked out therefore he must have made a mistake. I agree with folding preflop, but not because of hands like this.

NickyOD

connie147 wrote:

hi nicky,
I think it boils down to the fact that the original call with A-8 was the big mistake in the hand.Its grand to say it was only another 450 to call but it eventually cost you all your chips to call.You might think he has a pocket pair but he can just as well have A-Q,A-K .The only flop your gonna be happy with is A-8-x or 8-8-x.In a 3k buy in tourney I personally dont think calling a raise with A-8 ,specially early on,is of any benefit (unless you know enough about the villian to be fairly sure you can get him off the hand later).
As it played I would have led out on the flop and re-avaluated after his action.If you had led he probably would have to put you on the Q,specially if he reraised and you pushed all-in.Its always easier in hindsight though.You got unlucky but I think it goes back to the original call.

As MrPillowTalk pointed out the preflop call is a breakeven play because he has underraised. If he min raises folding is bad. If he makes a proper raise folding is good. If the raise is somewhere in between I think either is fine but I like to take a gamble early in order to get the chips to set my self up for going deep in the tournament. Also If my read is that my Ace is not live I fold.