All-Ireland Facelift!

Dapos

Hey was reading an article today in the irish independent that the GAA may be considering changing the format of the all-ireland football and hurling championships and the national leagues also. If any of ye are registered with unison.ie here is link:

http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=13&si=1628227

Think their main concern is the lower attendences to matchs an onesided games with the back-door system.
What do ye make of this idea. I have mixed feelings. While the current format definately needs something done to it (i mean the munster football championship for one isn't great is it) it would be a shame to lose the provincal championships if the GAA decided to use a format like the Champions league or something.

EDIT: Article is shown below in later post

Imposter

I reckon they should combine Dublin and Meath too. That way they may get a decent team between the 2 of them!

solskjaer20

Can someone give us the jist of the article, for ones not registered?

The Rooster

Regarding the football, I think the championship is pretty close to perfect at the moment.

The league needs to be overhauled I believe. I'd go back to (almost) the old format of a Div 1, Div 2, Div 3 North, Div 3 South, with 8 teams in each. The top 4 in Div 1, the top 2 in Div 2 and the top team in both of Divs 3 qualifying for the quarter-finals.

Bottom 2 in Div 1 relegated. Top 2 in Div 2 promoted, bottom 2 relegated. Winner of Divs 3 relegated, runners-up in playoff with 3rd and 4th bottom teams from Div 2.

nollaig

hmm, interesting arcticle.

The Hurling qualifiers dont work. Because they are too one-sided. Its as simple as that. I'd get rid of the provinical championships in hurling defitinitely. I know that the Munster Championship can be great but you could look into the possibility of playing that as seperate competition altogether. I'd just go along with the champions league format. Have 16 teams, 4 groups of 4. So you would have: Cork, Waterford, Tipp, Clare, Limerick, Galway, Wexford, Kilkenny, Offaly, Dublin, Laois, Antrim and 4 other teams, have some relgation thing similiar to what they have now so you could have teams like Down & Westmeath in there.
As far as I can see that would be the only fair way. Fixtures drawn up at the beginning of the year so you know when your playing and it doesnt interfere much with the club games.

Football is more difficult. Again, I'm not really a big fan of the prvincial system. Leinster is the only province where we see a number of meaningful games at the moment (probably because the teams are equally as bad as each other rather than them being good:D ). I would probably look towards a champions league format again. 33 teams take part so, 7 groups of 4 and 1 group of 5 with the winners of each group going into the quarter finals.

I dont know, its just seems the fairest way to me.

Dapos

GAA concern over poor games and attendances

THE football and hurling championships and the national leagues could be set for a major overhaul.

The GAA has given its clearest indication yet that growing dissatisfaction over the formats for the leagues and championships could lead to change in the autumn.

Central Council has instructed the Central Competitions Control Committee to start an immediate review of the hurling championships and to compile a detailed report for a Special Congress to be held next October.

Counties have been informed that the football formats can also be reviewed if they so wish.

Central Council itself will undertake a review of the structure of the National Leagues, which have come in for heavy criticism in recent times.

The current hurling championship system is at the end of a two-year trial so the GAA has to decide whether to retain the provincial/All-Ireland qualifier model or re-shape the entire programme.

Much will depend on this year's qualifying series as there was disquiet last year over the number of poorly attended lopsided games.

The average attendance at the 12 games was 3,828, ranging from highs of 12,507 for Clare v Waterford and 9,216 for Galway v Limerick to lows of 218 for Dublin v Offaly and 750 for Galway v Antrim.

Total gate receipts for the hurling qualifiers amounted to €489,219 (average €40,768) compared with €1,802,804 (average €75,116) for the football qualifiers.

There's a growing suspicion that if retained in its present format, the qualifying outlet could have a negative long-term impact on the Munster and Leinster hurling championships.

Worryingly, the attendance of 27,680 at last Sunday's Tipperary-Waterford Munster semi-final in Páirc Uí Chaoimh was 7,365 lower than the equivalent tie between the same counties in 2004.

Attracted

Last month's Tipperary v Limerick first round tie in Thurles attracted 26,494, down 2,058 on last year.

While there's general satisfaction at the tier 1-2-3 system, there were an alarmingly high number of one-sided games in last year's All-Ireland qualifiers.

Antrim lost to Limerick and Galway by an average of 27 points; Dublin lost to Clare and Waterford by an average of 20 points while Laois lost to Galway and Limerick by an average of ten points.

The draw for this year's hurling qualifiers takes place next Sunday and the hope among those who support the current system is that the two groups are far more competitive. Those involved in the draws are: Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Dublin, Laois, Offaly or Wexford, Kilkenny or Westmeath.

The football qualifiers are usually more competitive but they too have lost appeal. Gate receipts for the football and hurling qualifiers totalled €2.3 million last year, down €2 million on 2004.

The All-Ireland qualifiers are being blamed, partially at least, for the growing chaos that exists on the club scene where hundreds of players country-wide are left idle for long spells during the summer months while the county team pursues its championship programme.

The club v county dilemma led to a bust-up in Laois last month when Portlaoise briefly withdrew their players from the county squads to vent their displeasure at the lack of opportunities for their top players to train with the club.

GAA president Nickey Brennan has already indicated that he is unhappy with aspects of the All-Ireland championship format.

"I don't believe that we have got the formula right just yet. The three-tier hurling championship is a definite plus. The reality with the senior football championship is that many counties have no chance of success," he said.

Players in both codes have become increasingly frustrated over the absence of a consistent club programme in summer and while it's generally assumed to be a problem for club players only, inter-county stars are also concerned.

Wish list

Waterford hurling midfielder Michael Walsh had it at the top of his wish list in an interview in the programme for last Sunday's Munster semi-final.

"Club players are left in limbo for most of the summer. This has to be addressed," he responded when asked what changes he would like to see introduced.

With the format of both the All-Ireland football and hurling championships back on the agenda, it's expected that the Central Control Competitions Committee will consult widely and seek submissions from all interested parties prior to putting proposals before Special Congress in October.

popebenny16

I havent got unison so cant read the article.

I do think the qualifier league should be got rid off, it just means that the likes of clare try to beat the likes of Dublin by more than Waterford did in an effort to avoid the likes of Cork in the All-Ireland Quater Finals, it's stupid.

The NHL is a joke. Dublin are not Division one and not Divison two either but somewhere between. They should merge Division 1 A and B and have a straight Division 2 as well. Tipp treated the league as a joke this year, they're in the Munster Final now.

As for the indo, it must be nice for Martin Breheny to, after all these years, have the GAA looking favourably on his suggestions for altering the championship. He's been on a solo run for a while on it, but in the end he is right.

mchurl

nollaig wrote:

hmm, interesting arcticle.


Football is more difficult. Again, I'm not really a big fan of the prvincial system. Leinster is the only province where we see a number of meaningful games at the moment (probably because the teams are equally as bad as each other rather than them being good:D ). I would probably look towards a champions league format again. 33 teams take part so, 7 groups of 4 and 1 group of 5 with the winners of each group going into the quarter finals.

Ulster has plenty of meaningful games as well.

I dont think the Football championship needs changing at all. Admittedly Munster tends to be between Kerry and Cork and Connacht between Mayo and Galway, but this can change. I think the structure is grand the way it is.

As for Hurling, something does need to be done. Munster is the only competitive province imo. Attendaces are starting to get smaller and the GAA need to think about doing something to revive interest.

Dapos

mchurl wrote:

Ulster has plenty of meaningful games as well.

I dont think the Football championship needs changing at all. Admittedly Munster tends to be between Kerry and Cork and Connacht between Mayo and Galway, but this can change. I think the structure is grand the way it is.

As for Hurling, something does need to be done. Munster is the only competitive province imo. Attendaces are starting to get smaller and the GAA need to think about doing something to revive interest.

I think the problem is that each of these provincal championships have only a small number of teams so they are more dependant on the quality of the teams involved. There are a number of good teams in ulster hence a good few meaningful games. The leinster teams are more evenly matched but how many will be left come august/september? So maybe it would be interesting to see wat would happen if provinces were mixed from the start.

solskjaer20

I admit something needs to be done, becasue its fasr harder to win Ulster (especially) and leinster than Connacht or Munster.

BUt it's also worth pointing out that an open-draw won't raise attendances, becasue fans will have to travel further to matches.

Kojak

mchurl wrote:

As for Hurling, something does need to be done. Munster is the only competitive province imo. Attendaces are starting to get smaller and the GAA need to think about doing something to revive interest.

I guess the only way to go is to abolish the Munster championship altogether - well either that or run it off outside the race for the All-Ireland. Leinster is one-dimensional. I dont beleive that if Galway enetered they would make it anymore competitive. At the present moment it would end up a Galway-Kilkenny final in Leinster each year, with Kilkenny winning the vast majority of them.

A league style format is the way to go - it will make more matches for teams (No, the qualifiers dont do that - they just provide a means for teams like Westmeath, Laois, Dublin etc to get hammered by the Munster loosers etc.)

Also with all due respect to the likes of Dublin, Laois etc. they are not fit for this level of hurling. The problem with these teams is that they would be miles too strong for the Christy Ring Cup - look at Antrim!!

Breezer

mchurl wrote:

Ulster has plenty of meaningful games as well.

Ulster has plenty of meaningful games and is very competitive, but the type of football usually played there does nothing for the game. It's often stop-start, mostly frees, and guessing what colour card the ref is going to produce for a foul is almost as interesting as the game itself.

The Tyrone-Derry match this year is a good example of this. I read an article comparing it to other games that same weekend; I can't remember the exact figures but there were roughly twice as many frees awarded on average in the Tyrone-Derry match. Almost no effort was made to tackle properly; instead players from both sides just pulled or wrestled the opposition to the ground, and it led the commentator to point out that this is where the unfair criticism that there is no tackle in football stems from.

Another example was the circus act that was last year's Ulster final replay. Yes, Michael Collins made mistakes, particularly sending Stephen O'Neill off with one yellow card, but even discounting that the game was atrocious as a spectacle.

I can only put this down to local rivalries, as no sooner were Tyrone into the quarter finals than they, along with Dublin, produced the best match of the Championship IMO (the first match). The All-Ireland final against Kerry was another cracker.

Local rivalries are great for creating atmosphere at a match, but when they go too far like this they just kill off any entertainment value.

Then you have the opposite problem in Munster and Connacht, where there's too little competition, resulting in lack of interest and low attendances which again kills any atmosphere. Scrapping the provincial championships would go a long way towards solving these problems.

On the other hand, you have Leinster. The Leinster championship is probably the only real outlet for teams like Westmeath to have their day of glory, and it's days like this that really help promote the game in the weaker counties. Which is all well and good, but look at what's happened in the meantime: last year Westmeath bowed out tamely and the game against Offaly this year was probably the worst match we'll see all summer. It was poorly attended and it's clear the interest is waning.

It'd be a pity to see the provincial championships killed off, for tradition's sake, as well as the fact that a bit of silverware in a year (or in some cases the lack of it), even if it's only a provincial trophy, can galvanise a team and make them more determined for the next year. But you have to look at the bigger picture too.

A quick note regarding hurling, being an ignorant Dub I'm afraid I don't know much about it, but I love watching the Munster championship. Again though, that's it, just Munster. Maybe keep this structure and have Galway play in Leinster? The idea was raised a few years back but never got off the ground. Between them, Galway, Kilkenny and Wexford (and maybe in a few years, Dublin or Laois) could put on a decent show, if not quite as good as what Munster has to offer.

EDIT: Kojak got there before me. I'm no expert like I've said, but I think the standard of hurling in Galway could be raised if they were playing a few competitive matches in Leinster, and likewise that could spur Wexford on. It probably would be Galway-Kilkenny for the first few years alright, but given time it could work I think.

Imposter

I'd scrap the league and run the provincial championships early in the year and then have the all-ireland in a 4 to a group format starting around mid april. The season is too long (as in never ending) at the moment and that is not good for clubs, fans or the players.

The new hurling championship is a good start but i'd go with a 12 team - 4 groups of 3 championship with the bottom 4 playing off for relegation and 2 coming out of each group (then seeded) to play in the all-ireland knock-out phase. Again i'd run the provincials earlier in the year.

Culchie

Breezer wrote:

Ulster has plenty of meaningful games and is very competitive, but the type of football usually played there does nothing for the game. It's often stop-start, mostly frees, and guessing what colour card the ref is going to produce for a foul is almost as interesting as the game itself.

The Tyrone-Derry match this year is a good example of this. I read an article comparing it to other games that same weekend; I can't remember the exact figures but there were roughly twice as many frees awarded on average in the Tyrone-Derry match. Almost no effort was made to tackle properly; instead players from both sides just pulled or wrestled the opposition to the ground, and it led the commentator to point out that this is where the unfair criticism that there is no tackle in football stems from.

Another example was the circus act that was last year's Ulster final replay. Yes, Michael Collins made mistakes, particularly sending Stephen O'Neill off with one yellow card, but even discounting that the game was atrocious as a spectacle.

I can only put this down to local rivalries, as no sooner were Tyrone into the quarter finals than they, along with Dublin, produced the best match of the Championship IMO (the first match). The All-Ireland final against Kerry was another cracker.

Local rivalries are great for creating atmosphere at a match, but when they go too far like this they just kill off any entertainment value.

Then you have the opposite problem in Munster and Connacht, where there's too little competition, resulting in lack of interest and low attendances which again kills any atmosphere. Scrapping the provincial championships would go a long way towards solving these problems.

On the other hand, you have Leinster. The Leinster championship is probably the only real outlet for teams like Westmeath to have their day of glory, and it's days like this that really help promote the game in the weaker counties. Which is all well and good, but look at what's happened in the meantime: last year Westmeath bowed out tamely and the game against Offaly this year was probably the worst match we'll see all summer. It was poorly attended and it's clear the interest is waning.

It'd be a pity to see the provincial championships killed off, for tradition's sake, as well as the fact that a bit of silverware in a year (or in some cases the lack of it), even if it's only a provincial trophy, can galvanise a team and make them more determined for the next year. But you have to look at the bigger picture too.

A quick note regarding hurling, being an ignorant Dub I'm afraid I don't know much about it, but I love watching the Munster championship. Again though, that's it, just Munster. Maybe keep this structure and have Galway play in Leinster? The idea was raised a few years back but never got off the ground. Between them, Galway, Kilkenny and Wexford (and maybe in a few years, Dublin or Laois) could put on a decent show, if not quite as good as what Munster has to offer.

EDIT: Kojak got there before me. I'm no expert like I've said, but I think the standard of hurling in Galway could be raised if they were playing a few competitive matches in Leinster, and likewise that could spur Wexford on. It probably would be Galway-Kilkenny for the first few years alright, but given time it could work I think.

Well, I don't think there's much wrong on the football side of things. The league is needed to bring in players.

Breezers comment on Connaught football, which I obviously know best I disagree with, there may be only 5 counties plus London, but they are always keenly contestly, very rarely lobsided, and normally the grounds are packed, so he/she is completely wrong there. Look at how many All Ireland Club champions have come from Connaught in the last 10 years, without hitting google, I'm guessing 6/7 out of 10.....and in the 80's Clann na Gael dominated the club scene.

Proper refereeing, and sanctions/penalties being imposed (e.g Dublin/Tyrone) would solve alot of the vitriole ... the GAA needs to stand tough.

The qualifiers is a great idea, but, and I brought this point up last year, and I think I'm being borne out on it ..... is the price of entrance into these games.

The GAA didn't have these 'bonus games' a few years ago, it's all bonus income, so they should relax the gate price to a €5 or so, and the attendances will increase.

I'm not a traditionalist normally, but when it comes to the GAA I am, it's very foundation are embedded in local parishes and counties taking each other on every summer. It's not the football or the passion that's missing.

True, Munster is a bit of a damp squib each year with Cork and Kerry doing their thing, but it really is up to counties like Tipperary, Limerick to step up to the plate and make an effort, not a token gesture, I mean a real effort to improve their internal county set ups, it's not Cork and Kerry's fault they are always the top 2. (Look at the recent improvment in recent years of Sligo, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Armagh, Tyrone.... Longford! ffs Longford !) ..... They all decided to get serious about improving their counties footballing fortunes.
It requires effort just like any successful business ... and it's just a 'kop out' for any of the 'weaker counties' to say otherwise.

Hurling, I'm not in a position to comment on too much, as I have an interest, but not a thorough insight into the set up.

Once again, look at what Clare did in the late 80's, early 90's ... it showed fruition in the mid to late 90's through to the present day.
It won't happen overnight, but it will happen if they all get the finger out.

Sure, all things should be improved if they can be, but you got to look at the real core issues for alot of the imbalances in inter county football, and alot of the solutions can be found pretty close to home, without having to scrap provincial championships and tear down the foundations of local rivalry, the very thing that makes the GAA what it is.

nollaig

Breezers comment on Connaught football, which I obviously know best I disagree with, there may be only 5 counties plus London, but they are always keenly contestly, very rarely lobsided, and normally the grounds are packed, so he/she is completely wrong there. Look at how many All Ireland Club champions have come from Connaught in the last 10 years, without hitting google, I'm guessing 6/7 out of 10.....and in the 80's Clann na Gael dominated the club scene.

hmm, I'm from Galway and would nt agree with this at all. First of all there are 7 teams, the 5 connacht teams plus London & New York.

Secondly, they are regularly lobsided, maybe not so when you look at the final score but Galway & Mayo nearly always get beat everybody else. This year, It is looking very very unlikely that anybody will get near them. Galway were far far superior to Sligo and Sligo never ever troubled them. I'd love to see Leitrim give Mayo a bit of a shock but I cant see it to be honest. Rosommon were ok for a couple of years around 2000-2001 but have been **** since and will remain so! Also, the attendance at the Galway - Sligo match was something like 6000? That is hardly a good attendance?

Culchie

nollaig wrote:

hmm, I'm from Galway and would nt agree with this at all. First of all there are 7 teams, the 5 connacht teams plus London & New York.

Secondly, they are regularly lobsided, maybe not so when you look at the final score but Galway & Mayo nearly always get beat everybody else. This year, It is looking very very unlikely that anybody will get near them. Galway were far far superior to Sligo and Sligo never ever troubled them. I'd love to see Leitrim give Mayo a bit of a shock but I cant see it to be honest. Rosommon were ok for a couple of years around 2000-2001 but have been **** since and will remain so! Also, the attendance at the Galway - Sligo match was something like 6000? That is hardly a good attendance?

Sorry I forgot about New York, it doesn't change much. I apologise to all the New York readers of boards.ie :rolleyes:

The main reason there was only 6000 at this match (I've mentioned this on another thread) is because instead of Sligo fans (and Mayo fans) having a 40-50 min free flowing traffic run to Tuam, the heart of Galway football, they now have a one hour journey to Claregalway, and from there, it could take anything from 40 mins to 2 hours to get to Salthill, through Galway city.

Surely you can see this is a bit silly?


Also here are the recent matches between Galway and Sligo

MOST RECENT CHAMPIONSHIP CLASHES
2006 - Galway 0-19 Sligo 1-12
2002 - Galway 1-11 Sligo 0-11
2000 - Galway 0-22 Sligo 0-4
1999 - Galway 0-17 Sligo 0-7 (replay)
1999 - Galway 1-13 Sligo 3-7 (draw)
1996 - Galway 0-19 Sligo 2-7 (replay)

Considering Galway have had a bloody good team over that period of time, including 2 All-Irelands, I don't think Sligo have disgraced themselves...... do you?

Roscommon had the beating of Mayo last year, but bottled it when they conceded a soft goal on the stroke of half time, and I think you'll see the Rossies mean business this year.

So what is it that you actually disagree with, other than New York's ommission?




edit ..... was thinking about this munching on my sandwich at lunchtime. Just to get my point accross to non Connaught people.

It would be quicker for someone from Sligo to see Sligo in Croke Park, than it would be to see them in Pearse stadium
Nothing like a bit of 'comparison' to emphasise a point.