Complementing Taekwon-do

Wes98

Hey Guys
Was wondering if any of you could give me advice on what kind of martial art to take up to complement Taekwon-do?

ShaneT

Hi Wes,

Unfortunately, that's a little like asking "can anyone please tell me what food will compliment my cup of tea?"

You're likely to get 300 responses, all saying "my martial art is best"!

You might want to consider letting us know why you like TKD, what you want from a second martial art and why you do not consider TKD to be complete without a "compliment".

THEN... ....at least we can have some focus when we all start shouting "my martial art is best!!!"

Michael O Leary

Wes98 wrote:

Hey Guys
Was wondering if any of you could give me advice on what kind of martial art to take up to complement Taekwon-do?

Hi Wes,:)

"If" you were interested in weapons you could give Escrima a go. It is primarily weapons orientated with only a smallish portion of it empty hand so it should not interfer with what you already do.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

yomchi

Wes98 wrote:

Hey Guys
Was wondering if any of you could give me advice on what kind of martial art to take up to complement Taekwon-do?

Hi Wes,

Since Taekwon-Do is effectively a standing/striking art you should try learn about the other two zones of fighting, clinch and ground fighting. I have been studying Taekwon-Do now since 1987 and have only recently branched out to learn other arts. Its the best thing I have ever done. I started Brazilian Jiujitsu about 4 months ago with Ray Butcher. BJJ covers all the grappling/ground work you will need. www.defendu.ie

Another good art would be Muay Thai, they work with clinch techniques and train in full contact so that will be good to learn too.

Wes98

Jeeze...yeah. I didn`t really think a that.Thanks
Well first of all...Lets try and not be biased.The whole "my martial art is better than yours" argument can get real boring real fast.
I`m Looking for something to help me on a more streetwise level, but also to help my sparring develope more aswell, I guess there kinda hand in hand anyway.
Hope that helped to narrow it down somewhat.
Thanks for the advice Shane!

yomchi

Wes98 wrote:

Jeeze...yeah. I didn`t really think a that.Thanks
Well first of all...Lets try and not be biased.The whole "my martial art is better than yours" argument can get real boring real fast.
I`m Looking for something to help me on a more streetwise level, but also to help my sparring develope more aswell, I guess there kinda hand in hand anyway.
Hope that helped to narrow it down somewhat.
Thanks for the advice Shane!

Take a look at http://www.iutf-dublin.com/bjjpics_page.htm for some images of BJJ training.

If your looking for street, some of the RBSD guys here will help you out. Im only new to it but can recomment www.urbancombatives.com as a starting point

Jon

Wes98

Sorry I`m new to this so my replying is fairly slow!!
I was thinking of doing Muay thai, the only thing is It might interfere with my kicking technique in TKD. I understand the two arts have very different techniques of kicking?
Weapons sounds interesting, were abouts do you do that?In Dublin?You don`t happen to do any nunchacku training aswell?

(Thanks for your posts by the way guys!)

yomchi

I'd personally advise you to drop TKD too.

I'd be interested to know why you would personaly recommend this?

then..

I'm not saying x is better than y - period, I think all sports and martial arts have their place

uberpixie

Wes98 wrote:

Sorry I`m new to this so my replying is fairly slow!!
I was thinking of doing Muay thai, the only thing is It might interfere with my kicking technique in TKD. I understand the two arts have very different techniques of kicking?

Muay thai stance, foot work and kicking are very different to TKD.
(from my very limited experience in ITF TKD and 1 muay thai class:o)

Give muaythai a go, but if you are serious about reaching a certain belt in TKD, maybe lay of muay thai till you get the belt.

Roper

Muay Thai is not a compliment to TKD. Totally different, and one will only get in the way of the other. You're better off doing what Jon said and get yourself some skill in the other two ranges. I disagree with his BJJ is all you need for grappling comment though, BJJ lacks good takedowns IMO, so you need a bit of wrestling/Judo/similar.

Or you could try weapons training if that was your thing. Looks like a blast and the time I tried it I had great fun. Best fun I've EVER had doing martial arts though is wrestling with someone else, either for submissions or for pins. Its always great fun, even when you're losing and requires a bit of brain activity too. Give everything a shot once.

Whereabouts are you living/willing to travel to? Maybe then you might get some specific recommendations about where to train.

yomchi

I disagree with his BJJ is all you need for grappling comment though, BJJ lacks good takedowns IMO, so you need a bit of wrestling/Judo/similar

Thats cool Roper, here's me new to BJJ sayin it has everything, trust a new guy :rolleyes:

Roper

Its called enthusiasm Jon!

Tim_Murphy

http://www.iutf-dublin.com/bjjpics_page.htm

Check Jon out in a BJJ gi! Who’d have thunk it!

Roper is correct, Muay Thai is definitely not a complimentary art to TKD, they are chalk and cheese and will teach you contradictory things (which one is better depends on what you are looking for). I’d personally recommend Thai.

Wes98

Well at the moment I`m living in Roscommon.The chances of finding a decent place to train down here is fairly unlikey.
But in september I`l be heading back to Dublin, so thats were I`l be doing my training.Preferably in city center.
Oh, and I`m very much so aware that martial arts are not all the same (Jeeze, I`m not that narrow minded!)
So from what I`ve been hearing alot of people seem to prefer Muay Thai to TKD?
Yeah, maybe some grappling art would be good?Also I wasn`t aware that they actually teach mma classes?

Millionaire

depends what type of TKD your doing.

If you want to sharpen it up for the street, look at www.geoffthompson.com
actually good forum on here, might be worth asking the same question on here too.

If you are punch and kicking, it may be more the "way" your training say punches, that could be tightened up, as opposed to learning a new system.

For example, Geoff has some excellent DVDS, like Real punching, that show you training and drills to make your punches more street effective etc etc.

yomchi

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Check Jon out in a BJJ gi! Who’d have thunk it!

Roper is correct, Muay Thai is definitely not a complimentary art to TKD, they are chalk and cheese and will teach you contradictory things (which one is better depends on what you are looking for). I’d personally recommend Thai.

shhh!!! Don't be sayin that too loud LOL

ShaneT

Elytron wrote:

On the other hand if you want to learn the must functional striking martial art I'd personally recommend Muay Thai and to a lesser extent Karate (Kyochoshin).

Steady on there horse.... :mad: To suggest that Kyokushin Karate is "less functional" than Muay Thai is a little ill informed. Sorry old boy. Couldn't let that one slide...

We certainly won't head down the road of "which is best" since that's in the hands of the fighter. But, to suggest less functional? Peter Aerts would disagree. 5th Dan Kyokushin and K-1 legend.

Elytron wrote:

And ShaneT would be the man to talk about KKS Karate (if I may use that acronym).

See... you scored some points back there. It's probably worth knowing that we've (the organisation that is) have been integrating Kyokushin striking into MMA since the early eighties. Was called "All Round Fighting" back then though.

Tim_Murphy

shhh!!! Don't be sayin that too loud LOL

Sorry, my bad! Who knows you could be lurking

To suggest that Kyokushin Karate is "less functional" then Muay Thai is a little ill informed. Sorry old boy. Couldn't let that one slide...

I thought that there was no punches to the head allowed in Kyokushin?

Wes98

Could you tell me if the Kyokushin style of Karate incoperates any locks,holds,knees elbows?And were about is it taught?

ShaneT

Wes98 wrote:

Could you tell me if the Kyokushin style of Karate incoperates any locks,holds,knees elbows?And were about is it taught?

Hi Wes.

Under normal circumstances locks and holds are standing only. But, certainly, knees and elbows (trained full contact) are a huge part of Kyokushin. But, if you are talking about "grappling" (ie. groundwork etc) Then, no it's not included.

However, Bluming (10. Dan Kyokushin and 9. Dan Kodokan Judo) combined the syllabus of Judo and Kyokushin back in the early eighty to promote "All Round Fighting" where grappling and ground fighting were allowed. He called the system "Kyokushin Budokai". If you like, "complete" Kyokushin.

End, result: All Round Fighting... The most well known sporting application of which has become known as MMA (mixed martial arts). Exponents include people like Jan Plas (of the Vos Gym), Sem Schilt, Peter Aerts etc.

If you are looking to combine full contact karate (kyokushin) with head strikes (boxing, kickboxing) and grappling (sub grappling, judo, jiu jitsu) you're more than welcome to pay us visit. Won't cost you a bean for the first month.

Here's our site: www.mmaireland.com - you'll find all the details there.

All the best,
Shane.

Wes98

Thanks Shane I`l look it up!

ShaneT

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I thought that there was no punches to the head allowed in Kyokushin?

In Kyokushin competition, that's true. However, there are no gloves on, so it's probably not a bad idea. However, it's "trained" alright (usually with thin gloves).

Don't really want to get into a better/worse thing, they have their swings and roundabouts. Kyokushin, no gloves, stronger punches developed (much), strong low kicks, grappling to an extent, takedows etc. But, no head shots in competition. Thai is great in competition. But, the "functional side" of Karate (if trained with full contact) is considerably more extensive than competition Muay Thai.

There is one misconception though: it's not "easier" because of no head shots. It's suprisingly tough. Since, it's a lot harder to get knocked out. So, the constant onslaught of bare knuckle body shots result in a very demanding competition. Weaken the body with bare knuckles, force opponents hands down, expose the head, knockout with full contact head kicks - that's the name of the "game/competition". But, "functional" is not just about the competition it's about the application. And defense techniques (RB) would be drilled FAR more in Kyokushin than MT.

It's probably worth noting, Bas Rutten loves his Muay Thai. But, he consistently (on his tapes etc) credits his "toughness" and "striking ability" to Kyokushin.

Within Kyokushin Budokai (our "breed" of Kyokushin) we redress the head shot thing with Kickboxing etc (or, kyokushin full contact inlcusive of punches but with a head guard).

Long post... sorry... sometimes the smallest questions have the longest answers.

Both MT and Kyokushin are immense striking styles. Which is more functional? That's the kind of argument that has seen the destruction of many a forum! At the K-1 vs. Kyokushin event, under K-1 rules, all seven fights were won by the Kyokushin lads. Just a small thought... http://www.so-net.ne.jp/feg/k-1gp/b04_0530.htm

dudara

What I find TKD to be slightly lacking in is self-defense. To that end I worked at Krav Maga for a while. Unfortunately, due to work and so on I wasn't able to keep it up after a few months, but I found it to be well worth it.

It taught me how to break a lot of TKD habits that we've picked up, even unawares. How to break the habits of punching, instead use strikes. Even though I'm used to throwing combinations, the instructor heavily emphasised the need to keep going past the usual 1-2-3 if necessary

Tim_Murphy

There is one misconception though: it's not "easier" because of no head shots.

I wouldn’t have thought it was easier. From the vids I’ve seen the lack of head shots allows the guys to get closer and stay closer to each other, making it easier to pound the body and legs continuously. Looks like seriously tough sparring.

pma-ire

As Jon and Shane have said look at Thai or even kickboxing to sharpen your sparring!

But if you want to be a more rounded fighter then grappling ground and stand up should be what you need!!

Escrima is also very handy!! Not only for the use of the weapon! But for hand eye cordination!! Which will help your hands when empty striking also!!

Millionaire

Hi Tim:

I spent a short bit of time at Shanes club back Oct and Nov before i move to Thailand. and I was amazed at how tough the training and sparring was.

Of course I judged it at the start too....no head shots so its easier... no way. those bare knuckle punches to the ribs . then as shane said they also do head shot sparring, and to top it all off there is a healty does (my words) of Judo and ground work.

even though it is still Karate and we did a bit of trad work, I think from what I saw 80 % or more is pure functional. as in sparring, conditioning, grappling etc.

I guess what I liked about this club, not only the tough training, like there is no place to hide out down there! (and while I am not fond of belts anymore...they do grades). I really like the martial arts respect is still there. still the traditions of respect for student and teacher.

Sometimes I think that is lost these days with the modern fighting methods.

I got a few fierce hard kicks down there!!! LOL!!!

yomchi

Jon, What i was trying to say was, do what ever makes you happy. if you find tkd fun, do it. but, i'd still say, drop it and take up MMA if you want to become a better fighter. But if you don't want to be a better figher, you want to be a better TKD person, thne do as much TKD as possible and cross train in WTF

I see what you are trying to say. However! as a TKD person, I cross train in BJJ nad im now studying combatives. I feel i've pretty much got things better covered than before. Cross training from ITF to WTF is a no brainer IMO, for all the obvious reasons, no head shots in WTF, different rules, points, etc.. I see where your going though

Roper

Aerts might be a 5th Dan in Kyokoshin, but he's ALL THAI BABY!


Anyway, just thought I'd say that Kykoshin is the dogs bollicks, as is Thai. But Thai has a better method in my opinion.

ShaneT

Roper wrote:

Aerts might be a 5th Dan in Kyokoshin, but he's ALL THAI BABY!


Anyway, just thought I'd say that Kykoshin is the dogs bollicks, as is Thai. But Thai has a better method in my opinion.

LOL on both counts. As for Aerts being all Thai... watch his instructionals... You'll see that he can't stop saying "OSU" throughout. Kyokushin people often compete in Full Contact Thai/Kickboxing (K-1) and then people believe them to be Thai/Kickboxers.

Aerts is actually a Kyokushin 5th Dan in our own organisation (IBK under Bluming, along with Jan Plas etc of the Vos Gym [Jan Plas is an 8th Dan]). But, again, because they compete in K-1 people don't realise the roots. :cool:

Musashi

My own take would be that for a TKD bod looking to beef up his style then more Traditional styles would be a better fit?
Thai is obviously very good, but Shane and the KKS Karate are probably a lot closer to your own style than any TKD Instructor (besides PMA-Ire) is willing to admit? TKD is basically Shotokan et al. with minor changes to make it "more Korean". Why not change it back to "more functional", and allow the banned ranges and Techniques? Use the sweeps of Karate and low Thai Kicks, learn to clinch and throw from Greco and Bjj, ground fighting from BJJ? Why limit your self to fit your current style? Be a student of Martial Arts, not A Single Martial Art!

Way I want to roll, your mileage may vary!

Wes98

I know what you mean Musashi. I`ve done other arts such as sports Karate and a small bit of Boxing, even done a bit of Capoeria (sp?). Unfortunaly I never had the chance to progress very far in either. Found them all fairly lacking in comparison to other martial arts.Don`t get me wrong there great in there own right, but to be a more complete fighter I definatley needed something with a bit more to it.
So now I`ve started the Taekwon-Do I would like to keep at it till I`ve reached a 1st Dan at least.
Of course thats not the only reason why I want to keep it up (to reach black belt level) I think (from my own experience )that TKD is very good for progressing sparring skills aswell.
(Im practicing in the ITF by the way )
So you guys think That Koykushin (sp?) Karate would be more of a benfit to me than Muay Thai if I was to continue doing TKD? I was also thinking about BJJ?
Any Opinions?

ShaneT

Wes98 wrote:

Any Opinions?

Hey Wes, I suggest you set up a few trials sessions/visits for each of the things that interest you. Opinion doesn't really count for much. It's your own opinion based on your own experiences that matter. Good Luck in your search.

Musashi

I'm biased as I come from a TKD ITF RITA background. Other lads are from pure MMA training. I like to think I am more open than most as I do try to train and learn from all the other styles available to me!
Most lads on here will chime in with MMA. That's fine....IF it's available locally!
There's a tendency to forget we don't all live in Dublin or Cork or Galway. Not everyone on board has the opportunity to train with Quality MMA. If your local Instructor is crap, or Non Existant (like mine) then you have to travel to learn!
Even then, learn from good sources or you'll set yourself back! The only BJJ I know I picked up from JK and from Dlofnep.Distance learnig is not ideal, but better than learning from a video like!
A smart guy will learn from all locally available sources, if one or more are rubbish then stop going there! If one is head and shoulders above, train there more! This doesn't mean if your learning BJJ from John Kav. you shouldn't learn Thai from Paddy C. however! Take Quality instruction where you can get it and mix and match as much as possible.

If you choose to stay in TKD you'll have stuff you can use against the others and pass off as TKD. If you find a style that suits you better you can leave.
If TKD is the only game in town (like my town) then you travel to learn more and bring it home, adding value to your club and your instruction!

Wes98

Thanks Guys I`l take your advice into consideration, and thanks for the posts aswell.

Roper

Shane,
Don't know the man's history but he was World Muay Thai Champion! I did notice the Osu in his instructionals though and was wondering;)

There are very few stand-up styles I'd recommend, No.1 of course is Roper Kwon Do (when you coming down Elytron:D) and after that its Boxing, Kyukoshinkai (sp?), Thai, and from what I've seen of it, San Shou.

They're the reliable ones, everything else is hit and miss in my opinion. For example, I trained in an excellent TKD gym that produced excellent fighters, but I've seen more average to bad than good in TKD, all organisations included there. (I mean that on a full contact level of course)

Wes,
If I were you I'd pencil in some intro classes of as many different types as possible, in as many different clubs as possible, try them all and pick your favourite. If you want to augment your TKD, boxing can be a good idea but it doesn't cross-over well into TKD competition. If you want to augment your full range (as I think you do), then I'd try an art that deals with the clinch or ground ranges.

Vegeta

as others have said it all depends on the class and the instructor.

I trained under Tim Murphy (Kickboxing/TKD) for about 2 years and we practised quite a lot of styles. Boxing, kicking, ground and take downs. I am not saying I am great at all categories but I have an awareness of them.

I am now training in AIMAA and while there are vast differences I can still take what i learned and try and improve at that in my new club/school

Go to as many classes and as many instructors as you can, find one that you think fills the gaps in your ability