Is it feasable to go off grid?

The_Bullman

Is it possible to go off grid when building a new home?

With phone you can choose mobile so that's ok.

What about water? You could try a rainwater harvesting jobbie - maybe combined with a well.

No need for gas.

And the main problem. Electricity. Would wind turbines with solar panels be capable of meeting the needs of a family home? Perhaps using a diesel generator as a backup.

More to the point. Is it financially feasable to do this?

Qwerty?

I remember talking to a wind turbine supplier last year who roughly quoted €50k to do this. Main part of the price is batteries to store energy when production is too high, and to use when wind is to slow. These batteries as far as I know have a short lifespan...

Better to suppliment ESB with a Wind turbine. Can't remember what KW he suggested, but it was about €20k. I worked out it would take up on 15 years for a payback, and you have to wonder what the lifespan of the turbine would be...

damiand

I will have to agree with Qwerty. 15 years seems like a stort pay back time though,

The truth is that a domestic wind turbine will produce wind energy approximately 30% of the time at best. Dont mind all the bull. A really effecient wind farm turbine will produce wind energy 60 - 70 % of the time only. Domestic turbines will in generally be poorly located. In truth a wind turbine will pay for itself in c.25 years to never. The turbines are relitively cheep but a good inverter and deep cell batteries are very expensive. Most of the domestic turbines are small and will only provide for small electrical appliances. You can forget about the washing machine and dishwasher.

A wind turbine can be an energy saving device as one is more likely to be effecient and conscience of energy usage. This is one of the 'educational' advantages of having a wind turbine.

Solar pannels will pay for themselves enentually, 20+ years depending on location. Again the batteries are the problem and as pannels get older they become less effecient.

A (diesel) generator is a good idea and is essential if one is to go off grid.

The most economically viable product I have seen is the solar water tubes. The pay back time is approximately 17 years and in summer it will provide 100% hot water requirements. It however nothing towards supplying hot water in December/January/February.

bonkey

The_Bullman wrote:

With phone you can choose mobile so that's ok.

I hate to point it out, but mobiles are not "off grid" in any meaningful sense. They are fully integrated into the official phone network. They just happen to be wireless.

I'm pretty sure no matter what way you set up your electricity, its not going to be wireless.

More to the point. Is it financially feasable to do this?

Financial feasibility is based on how rich you are. It can be 10x the cost of getting your power from the grid and still be financially feasible for you if you're rich enough.

If what you're asking is whether or not it will work out cheaper in the long run....the answer is probably....if you can afford to set it all up right, and then live in one place long enough to get your payback.

jc

Cuauhtemoc

The most economically viable product I have seen is the solar water tubes. The pay back time is approximately 17 years and in summer it will provide 100% hot water requirements. It however nothing towards supplying hot water in December/January/February.

With the right elevation/aspect these will generate warm/hot water during winter months. Obviously not as efficiently as summer but still reducing esb.

Take a look at surface powers website. They offer "off grid" solutions.
Bio/agri diesel generator for backup/high energy appliances and a combination of wind and solar with battery storage.
You do not need a "huge" bank of batteries to store when production is high. The batteries you have get charged and stop when they're full. Managed by a charge controller.
A wood pellet boiler would do your heating and hot water.

You do need a site that gets wind of course and a southerly aspect.
The SEI website has a wind map on it somewhere.

I believe Surface power provided an off grid solution for about 16k up in donegal recently, was in the sunday times.
Mind you they did use 5 wind turbines and Donegal gets a fair amount of wind.

I have no affiliation with Surface power btw. Just like some of there products and plan on buying them.
I'm not convinced on the prices for their Solar water heating though. They do not qualify for grants as they are not installers.

C

foamcutter

Good thread here about going off grid..........very long though

Wind power

air

I'll have to cut in and contradict damiand here. The lowest cost renewable energy source (electrical) for home use is microhydro, followed by wind and then solar.
See the debate on the topic around April of this year on the a-w-h yahoo group.
Bear in mind however that this is an american forum and our wind resource is better than most of the US - see this study This only makes wind more attractive.

PV panels have gotten more expensive recently also driven by high demand from those taking up renewable energy grants in Germany in particular.

Another advantage for wind is that if you are technically minded it is possible to build the entire turbine yourself - Hugh Pigott produces excellent plans if you are interested in going down this line.

Finally I'd like to voice my objections to the strategy mentioned of installing 5 wind turbines on a single site. IMHO this is not advisable because it will mean:
1. 5 times the maintenance of a single large turbine
2. It is going to be less aesthetically pleasing than a single large turbine
3. A single large turbine at a greater height with a larger swept area would be far more efficient than multiple small turbines.
4. I'm not sure about Donegal, but I do know that certain counties have development levies for the erection of wind turbines. This applies per turbine (in Limerick at least).
5. Probably going to be a lot noisier
6. Higher cost.

I suspect that the primary reason that the multiple small turbine approach was used was possibly either that the installer had lots of the small turbines in stock and was experienced in installing them. They may not have had the expertise to install the structural requirements for a larger turbine. Then again maybe there were other factors.

The only situation in which I would think that this system would be advisable would be where a user might have the ability to make their own turbines and add to the system over time by adding more turbines. If it was a home build project, it might also be difficult for a particular user to fabricate a particularly large tower.

Cuauhtemoc

Just as regards the 5 turbines on that one site.

I'd imagine the reason for them was..
1. They do not require planning permission.
2. They are also silent running so no noise. Bigger ones would be.

I suppose it also offers redundancy over a single turbine.

That said air, i am convinced that a single bigger(or 2 intermediate) turbines would be better. I'd just be worried about planning and whether the noise might annoy nearby neighbours.

C.

damiand

I disagree with Cuauhtemoc regarding planning permission not bee required for small turbines.

The first question is 'does the erection of a wind turbine, associated tower, etc constitute development or in its erection require that works be undertaken ?'. The answer is yes.

The second follow on question is then 'is the erection of a wind turbine, associated tower, etc listed in Schedule 2 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 to 2005 as exempted development'. The answer is no.

As the erection of a wind turbine, associated tower, etc is not listed as being exempt development, it constitutes development and therefore requires that Planning Permission be applied for and granted prior to its erection.

Yes Air, micro hydro is a very good option but only if you have a stream near by.

Ireland has the best-proven wind speed in Europe and consequently we should be able to provide a lot of our national energy needs this way. There are a number of problems however.

1. We are a small country and for the wind energy production to work correctly we would have to have a number of connects to mainland Europe to sell when we have wind and to buy back when we have none.

2. Wind turbines/ farms are not been located in the correct locations and are consequently not as efficient as they should be. They don’t have to be as the real money from wind production is the carbon credits that clean energy produces.

3. I have to agree with Air regarding the probable reason for the 5 turbines on one site are that the supplier had lots in stock and has no experience of selling or installing larger models.

I spoke with a supplier about 7 months ago who really knew nothing about the turbines he was trying to sell apart from what the manufacturer told him. It was all really embarrassing...He told me it would pay for its self in 7 years.... what a load of manure.

Cuauhtemoc

I disagree with Cuauhtemoc regarding planning permission not bee required for small turbines.

You'd have to clarify that with Surface Power to see why they say it's exempt then. They have insisted several times that it is not required.

Of course i would look for written proof that they were exempt before i put them up.

The_Bullman

damiand wrote:

Yes Air, micro hydro is a very good option but only if you have a stream near by.

Does the stream(or river) need to have a large drop in height in order to give good head for a turbine?

Are there planning, or other, issues regarding interfering with the river? Would it be necessary to form a man-made offshoot to power the turbine, or can you drop it across the river.

air

Bullman, micro hydro turbines can be broadly categoriesed as either high head low flow or low head high flow. Both scenarios require different styles of turbines but basically you either need a lot of water flowing or to have water flowing from a large height in order to make it feasible.
The low flow turbines normally employ a pvc pipe that is placed in the riverbed and ran upstream from the turbine for anything up to 100 metres - cost being the limiting factor here.
The pipe provides a consistent high pressure supply of water to the turbine which then typically spins at high speed.

The low head high flow turbines tend to be more like the traditional waterwheels used in mills etc in times gone by. They use large paddles and turn slowly with high torque.

I dont know what regulatory issues you might come up against in trying to install micro hydro equipment, I guess your local county council would be a first port of call.

damiand

Planning is again an issue. Planning permission would be required to install a micro-hydro project. The main problem with such a project may be the damage that its does to fish in the stream. The Regional and parent Central Fisheries Board might/would have a heart attach should such projects become popular.

riccol1966

I ordered a surface power hybrid wind/pv system a couple of weeks ago, and also given a sketch to my local county council of what the turbine would look like when installed. I am waiting for their feedback regarding planning permission, and will post an update once I get some news.

damiand

Hi riccol1966

They will advise that it requires planning. You may also be advise to 'keep mum', that you never asked the question. Often its a case of no complaints no problem. Planning staff are overworked enough without looking for extra work.