Folding bottom set 400NL

pok3rplaya

GotThePowR is a regular TAGG.
baby juerg is a fish.

---

Hand #322772238 at table: Table TH 319
Started: Tue Jun 06 01:11:08 2006

daniel7777 is at seat 1 with 437.30
Yussuf99 is at seat 2 with 435.20
All-in4Fun is at seat 3 with 499.20
GotThePowR is at seat 4 with 645.30
Badewanne is at seat 5 with 290.00
ab*CD*ef is at seat 6 with 297.50
digibient1 is at seat 7 with 644.60
baby juerg is at seat 8 with 176.00
X-Charity is at seat 9 with 433.48
BumbleBee is at seat 10 with 319.82

ab*CD*ef posts the large blind 4.00
Badewanne posts the small blind 2.00

All-in4Fun: 3s, 3d

Pre-flop:

digibient1: Fold
baby juerg: Call 4.00
X-Charity: Fold
BumbleBee: Fold
daniel7777: Fold
Yussuf99: Fold
All-in4Fun: Call 4.00
GotThePowR: Call 4.00
Badewanne: Fold
ab*CD*ef: Check

Flop (Board: 9d, 3h, 7c):

ab*CD*ef: Check
baby juerg: Check
All-in4Fun: Bet 12.00
GotThePowR: Call 12.00
ab*CD*ef: Fold
baby juerg: Call 12.00

Turn (Board: 9d, 3h, 7c, 4c):

baby juerg: Check
All-in4Fun: Bet 36.00
GotThePowR: Raise 100.00
baby juerg: Call 100.00
All-in4Fun: Raise 240.00
GotThePowR : All in (~$524)
baby juerg: All in
All-in4Fun: Fold


Thoughts?

Lafortezza

A tough spot but you have alot of money already in the middle, over half your stack. I'd probably get it in.

Hectorjelly

Your turn reraise is really really bad, 56 which is a double gutshot got there. Just call the raise and play poker on the river.

ROONEY_DIVES

Hectorjelly wrote:

Your turn reraise is really really bad, 56 which is a double gutshot got there. Just call the raise and play poker on the river.

This isnt some personal vendetta or anything but....are you serious? a) I'm not even sure a reraise here is a bad idea, in fact i positively LIKE IT Not the point . The point is - if this is a 'really really bad' move, (reraising with bottom set) then i'd love to see your definition of a plain bad move. I cant believe you can even say that. Disagree fine but its a 'really really bad' move??? b) you talk at people not to them, i for one dont like it 1 bit and i cant see you being the type of guy to say 'please' and 'thank you' and c) im pretty sure im going back into posting-retirement, im pretty sure im talking to the wall (or a collective set of walls) in what im saying here.

Edit - d) how can u say categorically '56 which is a double gutshot got there'. laughable really. he could have anything from higher set, 2 pair to a semi-bluff (T8 / 86 clubs)

careca

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

This isnt some personal vendetta or anything but....are you serious? a) I'm not even sure a reraise here is a bad idea, in fact i positively LIKE IT Not the point . The point is - if this is a 'really really bad' move, (reraising with bottom set) then i'd love to see your definition of a plain bad move. I cant believe you can even say that. Disagree fine but its a 'really really bad' move??? b) you talk at people not to them, i for one dont like it 1 bit and i cant see you being the type of guy to say 'please' and 'thank you' and c) im pretty sure im going back into posting-retirement, im pretty sure im talking to the wall (or a collective set of walls) in what im saying here.

Edit - d) how can u say categorically '56 which is a double gutshot got there'. laughable really. he could have anything from higher set, 2 pair to a semi-bluff (T8 / 86 clubs)

e) LOL. Put you in your place Hector

pok3rplaya

Hectorjelly wrote:

Your turn reraise is really really bad, 56 which is a double gutshot got there. Just call the raise and play poker on the river.

At the point of his turn raise he could also easily have TT/JJ/79s. I don't want to play poker OOP on the river. I don't see how 3 betting really strong hands is so bad.

Btw, baby juerg could easily have Q9 at this point.

Gholimoli

pok3rplaya wrote:

At the point of his turn raise he could also easily have TT/JJ/79s. I don't want to play poker OOP on the river. I don't see how 3 betting really strong hands is so bad.

Btw, baby juerg could easily have Q9 at this point.

I think what is so bad about it is that you did 3 bet the hand,put half your stack in,and didn’t even get to see the river!
That’s bad IMO.
Its true that villain could have 97,TT,JJ here (well not so much TT,JJ unless he is very bad) but he could also have 99,77,56 .the point is when you 3 bet him,he will drop almost all the hands that you can beat, and only continue with hands that beat yours.
If you look at it that way then you can see the point of keeping the pot under control and taking the hand to show down. you mentioned your OOP in the hand. Again all the more reasons for you not to let the pot get so large.

ianmc38

yuck

Lafortezza

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

This isnt some personal vendetta or anything but....are you serious? a) I'm not even sure a reraise here is a bad idea, in fact i positively LIKE IT Not the point . The point is - if this is a 'really really bad' move, (reraising with bottom set) then i'd love to see your definition of a plain bad move. I cant believe you can even say that. Disagree fine but its a 'really really bad' move??? b) you talk at people not to them, i for one dont like it 1 bit and i cant see you being the type of guy to say 'please' and 'thank you' and c) im pretty sure im going back into posting-retirement, im pretty sure im talking to the wall (or a collective set of walls) in what im saying here.

Edit - d) how can u say categorically '56 which is a double gutshot got there'. laughable really. he could have anything from higher set, 2 pair to a semi-bluff (T8 / 86 clubs)

Ok you need to try to stop getting personal about peoples advice. If I limp AA on the button and someone voice's an opinion that they think its really bad play then I'll agree/disagree with them and we'll have a discussion, I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't criticise what they think is poor poker.
The original poster put up this thread to ask for opinions and to see what people think he should have done. HJ answered that.

There's a general rule on boards that you attack the post not the poster, so please if you disagree with anyone's poker comments give your reasons and give your own comments, nothing more.

Do you not think that the raise on the turn prices in all kinds of draws? It's barely more than a min raise.
Why do you like the turn raise? What hands do you think the Villains have that they are both happy to get all in after the turn raise my the OP?

fuzzbox

Your 240, baby_jeurgs 175, villains effective 500 makes the pot about 925, and you have to call off 250 to see a river. You are getting nearly 4:1.
In order for you to be correct to fold, one of the two villains needs to have a higher set pretty a lot of the time. You have some odds to see a river Vs 56, and you are ahead of all twopair hands (and shorties likely 8T).

Your turn raise is fine, if you are happy to go to the felt, but I dont like it if you raise and then fold.

Hectorjelly

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

This isnt some personal vendetta or anything but....are you serious? a) I'm not even sure a reraise here is a bad idea, in fact i positively LIKE IT Not the point . The point is - if this is a 'really really bad' move, (reraising with bottom set) then i'd love to see your definition of a plain bad move. I cant believe you can even say that. Disagree fine but its a 'really really bad' move??? b) you talk at people not to them, i for one dont like it 1 bit and i cant see you being the type of guy to say 'please' and 'thank you' and c) im pretty sure im going back into posting-retirement, im pretty sure im talking to the wall (or a collective set of walls) in what im saying here.

Edit - d) how can u say categorically '56 which is a double gutshot got there'. laughable really. he could have anything from higher set, 2 pair to a semi-bluff (T8 / 86 clubs)

When someone says a draw got there, they just mean that whatever out was neccessary came on the relevant street. So if someone says the flush got there on the turn, then a 3rd heart (or whatever) came on the turn. They arent saying that anyone was neccessarily on a flush draw, just that a flush is now possible. I was making the point that since 56 was a double gutshot and not just a gutshot that its a very likely hand for the TAG to have. There
is no chance that the TAG is on a semii bluff, since there is an idiot nearly all in. TAGs dont tend to do silly stuff like that.

Bottom set on this board isnt much of a hand anymore, so when you 3 bet the TAG guy your overrepresenting your hand. (as gholi pointed out) This means he will probablly drop any 2 pair hands that you beat, but continue with top set or a made staright. In fact if he has the made straight all you are doing is pricing yourself out of the hand - you have 9 outs to a house. The only reason to 3 bet here is if you are happy getting all in, which clearly isnt the case.

The best way to play this hand is to flat call the 64 raise and then see what comes on the river. If the board pairs on the river you can bet and fold to a raise if you think the TAG plays very predictably (ie he wont raise without a FH), or you can just check call him which means you get to a showdown for cheaper than the 3bet on the turn. This also gives him much more of a chance to overplay any 2 pair or worse hands.

Im sorry you seem to take so much offense from my posts. IN this case the turn raise was really really bad, its a action that will cost a player money. In a cash game with 100bb stacks, you cant be happy with getting in 3 on the flop with a set, and then 97 on the turn when a draw gets there against someone who is tight. I hope you can see why this is, and again its not really a matter of opinion.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Your 240, baby_jeurgs 175, villains effective 500 makes the pot about 925, and you have to call off 250 to see a river. You are getting nearly 4:1.
In order for you to be correct to fold, one of the two villains needs to have a higher set pretty a lot of the time. You have some odds to see a river Vs 56, and you are ahead of all twopair hands (and shorties likely 8T).

Your turn raise is fine, if you are happy to go to the felt, but I dont like it if you raise and then fold.

Fuzz,
I disagree that the turn 3bet is fine.
I could be wrong here but what do you think that reraise for that amount accomplishes here?
I mean your giving drawing hands great odds to draw and see the river with that amount raise + you could already be dead in the hand.
You have some outs against str but surely it cant be correct to make the pot bigger on the turn with 10 outs (assuming he has str and your still alive in the hand).

Hectorjelly

pok3rplaya wrote:

I don't see how 3 betting really strong hands is so bad.

its not, but then 33 isnt really strong here either

ianmc38

I really don't see the logic in 3-betting here then folding.

pok3rplaya

The logic is, regardless of whether I should have found myself in this situation or not, when he pushes over my reraise he has IMO
40% 99
40% 77
20% 56

I don't have a good equity calculator handy right now but I believe I'm not getting the odds I need when I have 1 out vs 80% of his range.

Right hector:

Turn (Board: 9d, 3h, 7c, 4c):

baby juerg: Check
All-in4Fun: Bet 36.00
GotThePowR: Raise 100.00
baby juerg: Call 100.00
All-in4Fun: Call 64.00

Pot: $345
River: Ks

GotThePowR : All in (~$524)
baby juerg: All in
All-in4Fun: has $380 left

Can I fold to his first turn raise?

Hectorjelly

Id fold the river.

If thats his range (and I dont think it is) then of course you can fold. If he has a set most of the time your basically drawing dead, and there are 9 cards which will make you lose even more.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

Fuzz,
I disagree that the turn 3bet is fine.
I could be wrong here but what do you think that reraise for that amount accomplishes here?
I mean your giving drawing hands great odds to draw and see the river with that amount raise + you could already be dead in the hand.
You have some outs against str but surely it cant be correct to make the pot bigger on the turn with 10 outs (assuming he has str and your still alive in the hand).

Sorry Gholi, I meant that 3-betting the turn is fine, the amount is not fine, and I'm only doing it if Im happy to go to the felt. I hate 3-betting and the folding.

Hectorjelly

Results?

pok3rplaya

TAGG had 77, other guy had some insignificant crazy hand.

So what range do you give him?

ROONEY_DIVES

lafortezza wrote:

If I limp AA on the button and someone voice's an opinion that they think its really bad play then I'll agree/disagree with them and we'll have a discussion, I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't criticise what they think is poor poker.

Being critical is fine, being an *** is completely different and im not sure he knows where that line is anymore, probably a dot on the horizon. Let me try rephrase his original reply -

'I think the turn reraise is a bad idea to be honest, the straight is out etc etc'

Instead he makes statements of fact - it IS a really really bad move. I'm not nit-picking over words, the only reason i reply to his posts at all is because i believe forums should be a friendly place where people can ask for advice from all angles and there is no need for the FORUM POLICE (HJ). I guarantee that his style of posting is not likely to do anything to attract more people to this forum, i'm sure there are plenty of people who don't post because of the style and type of replies they get from the likes of HJ.

lafortezza wrote:

Why do you like the turn raise? What hands do you think the Villains have that they are both happy to get all in after the turn raise my the OP?

I like the min raise because it gives him an extra layer of information needed to make a good pass. If he smooth calls 100 and the river is Ks, what does that change? If he's calling the turn then he's not folding the (likely all in) on the river. He has 1 player (rightfully) on junk and the other on a strong hand, the min reraise let him know just how strong. He makes a good fold. I don't see how he can necessarily deduce higher set/straight by smooth calling behind.

cardshark202

How about everyone starts over and forget this little row ever happened?

5starpool

cardshark202 wrote:

How about everyone starts over and forget this little row ever happened?

Reggie playing the peacemaker? Satan himself must be doing a triple salko as we speak.

Hectorjelly

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Being critical is fine, being an *** is completely different and im not sure he knows where that line is anymore, probably a dot on the horizon. Let me try rephrase his original reply -

'I think the turn reraise is a bad idea to be honest, the straight is out etc etc'

Instead he makes statements of fact - it IS a really really bad move. I'm not nit-picking over words, the only reason i reply to his posts at all is because i believe forums should be a friendly place where people can ask for advice from all angles and there is no need for the FORUM POLICE (HJ). I guarantee that his style of posting is not likely to do anything to attract more people to this forum, i'm sure there are plenty of people who don't post because of the style and type of replies they get from the likes of HJ.

If I offend you so much why dont you just mentally add the words "I think" to the start of every post I make? Then you might learn something. Again I would much prefer a forum that is of a very high technical standard over one which is filled with unchecked bad advise; however this is a little ironic as it seems to me that you are the one who is making the place unfriendly. I was insulting in my post, but all I was insulting was the move. You have insulted me personally now a few times.

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

I like the min raise because it gives him an extra layer of information needed to make a good pass. If he smooth calls 100 and the river is Ks, what does that change? If he's calling the turn then he's not folding the (likely all in) on the river. He has 1 player (rightfully) on junk and the other on a strong hand, the min reraise let him know just how strong. He makes a good fold. I don't see how he can necessarily deduce higher set/straight by smooth calling behind.

Sigh. You can deduce the fact that he has is likely higher set or straight by the fact that the player raised you, you dont need to put in another $150 of your own money, and reopen the betting, to do so. You are charging yourself a big price for information, and as you should really know raising or betting for information is a suckers move.

Think about what hand you would like the good player to call the reraise with - there is none. You have effectively reduced your hand to that of a bluff, which is some achievement with a set.

The river play is easy. A good TAG is not pushing the river with 2 pair here when he gets 2 calls on the turn.

mewso

Funny thing is way back when I also took issue with HJ's manner as I'm sure he may remember but the fact is people write in a certain way without any intention to convey anything other than information and it's not the person writing it that has the problem it's the person who takes it the wrong way. Not that my word would mean anything to ROONEY_DIVES but I would personally vouch for the fact that the intention is not put people down or belittle them only to contribute. Anyway thats enough defending HJ from me. * Hes taken the sensible move and ignored these tirades as I should have.

*whoops spoke too soon

ROONEY_DIVES

I'm retiring!!!!!!! Everything i've said about you previously i stand by. I had written a long reply bout what i feel bout the hand but its pointless..... im gonna sign off for now with a quote from a really inspirational figure in modern movies.

HAPPY GILMORE (to Chubbs)

"I’m stupid, you're smart.

I was wrong,you were right.

You're the best, I’m the worst.

You're very good-Looking, I’m not attractive."

CHUBBS (to Happy)

"Okay, as Long as you're willing
to admit that. Now..."


Edit - Musician u sound like an even bigger....than HJ. Ban me please. thats personal abuse surely.

cardshark202

Jaysus lads just stop it. I know Rooney to be a nice guy so all this bickering should stop. Also rooney, stop trying to ban yourself!

ROONEY_DIVES says:
do u know that Musician guy?
cardshark202 says:
yeah
cardshark202 says:
hes actually a nice guy
ROONEY_DIVES says:
thought so
ROONEY_DIVES says:
i mean they prob all are

mewso

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Edit - Musician u sound like an even bigger....than HJ. Ban me please. thats personal abuse surely.

I've been a .... all my life. Can't ban you for that.

ecksor

I'm close to banning him. Why do the ones that sign up with their usernames all in capital letters make me think they watch too much MTV and forgot their ritalin this morning. I've definitely been in the "don't like HJ's post style" camp on a few occasions, but there's no excuse for this nonsense.

ianmc38

Everything HJ posts is constructive criticism. It's never intended to offend. He simply points out a better line that people could have taken in hands. We all try to do this. I for one can say that much of HJs and other posters advice here have helped to vastly improve my game and fix lots of leaks that I had.

If you have a different line to that of HJ or Fuzzbox or me or anyone else for that matter, then post it and have it discussed. I'd certainly love to see some of the strategies you have to offer and plays you've made as you're obviously a highly successful player from the little I know about you.

You have no need to be abusive in your posts. We're all friends on this forum. I read your post when you were playing Joe Hachem heads up and I thought it was great to have another talented Irish poker player joining our community.

Get involved. Don't just lurk in the shadows and behave like a child when you have a disagreement with somebody. We're all grown ups so start acting like it and lets cut out all these petit squabbles.

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

lets cut out all these petty squabbles.

fyp

ianmc38

5starpool wrote:

fyp

Another potential spell czech mod

I'm only after waking up from a much needed power nap after work

pok3rplaya

I love everyone.