Trinity College has major reservations about Metro tunneling

ad hoc

This site seems to represent Trinity's first salvo in what may turn out to be a lengthy battle.

http://www.tcd.ie/Buildings/projectsmetro.php

Royale

go TCD, yes, redemption.

SeanW

Would love to see Metrobest answer THIS:

All three mutes proposed travel under important, historic and priceless buildings. The contents of many of these buildings are also priceless. As many date from a time when no 'as constructed' records were kept then the RPA will be required to ensure that these buildings and their contents are not damaged physically by the tunnelling operations or by the operation of the transit system.

...

TCD is concerned that the three alignments for comment are all under the campus, due to a desire to somehow connect with the existing Tara Street Dart station. We do not believe this link to be made by any of the options in a manner that justifies the risk to the college buildings.

MarkoP11

There is a difference between an objection on the grounds of NIMBY and on the grounds of its not even possible, the Blue route passes under the double basement Ussher Library (ground level is taken as one level below Nassau Street) which in turn is anchored into the bedrock by long steel bolts, its impossible to go under.

There are routes across TCD which wouldn't cause trouble, going the very front College Green side avoids nearly everything, or to go parrallel to the rear of Law school building (38/39/40) through the playing fields. There is no need to go under the central section of TCD at all, you don't need Tara Street

The original metro alignment under TCD bears no resemablance to any of the options on the table now

This will be fun to watch, just wait till the RPA are told there is a cemetary on the TCD campus

Once again the RPA messed this one up, they don't appear to have done any serious consultation in advance which could have avoided this, its clear the TCD submission is worded carefully but it is highly negative, TCD have a good case the RPA need to rethink this ASAP

Chris_533976

And this is the start of the wrangling that will see the metro delayed a further five years.

dermo88

They are under starters orders, and they are OFF on the run for the trough.

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Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

This will be fun to watch, just wait till the RPA are told there is a cemetary on the TCD campus

I'm not sure if this is a problem as such. Certainly the courts have said the Cemetaries Act doesn't protect things for ever. There is of course the city development plan, but it doesn't show any cemetaries in TCD.

Can't they use College Green and use the Citadis underground power system for just that section?

The solution to Westland Row would be to either ban high trucks (and maybe some tour busses) or lower the road. Westland Row is an elevated road, the surroundiong buildings do not have actual basements.

Have Trinity acquired Oisin House in exchange for the building on the corner of Tara Street and College Street?

MarkoP11

The metro alignment is likely to change significantly anyway

There are two ways this gets solved

RPA agree with TCD's position that they have legitimate issues and put in place steps to resolve it, little or no effect on the delivery date. We should all hope that this is the way it works out

RPA push forward and face down a challenge at the inquiry stage, that is risky would expose the EIS as possibly defective and while no one has won a significant victory since the Luas C inquiry its only a matter of time before someone does actually win and forces a massive change

There is nothing new in this it was all known well in advance simple bit of bench research would have exposed all the issues. The TCD campus is the most measured set of buildings in Dublin (well the student engineers have to practice), in some ways it could be a good thing as it might finally eliminate the obsession with Tara Street

TCD are possibly going a bit too far still it will show if the public and third party input actually matters

The TCD site was originally a monastery and there is a cemetary underneath what is known as Library Square, thats the green bit of what most incorrectly refer to as front square, it is there

Bill McH

TCD wrote:

...the college has a complex water table regime...

I vaguely remember hearing that TCD actually uses this, in some way, to extract heat from the incoming tide and reduce their energy bills.

Metrobest

Whoever designed the Usher library should be shot. It's an absolute crime that they designed a double basement on what always likely to be tunnel alignment for a Dublin metro project.

It doesn't neccessarily mean that the tunnel cannot pass under there, but obviously a deeper tunnel would be needed. In the new Amsterdam metro, for example, to avoid damage to historic 17th century buildings the tunnels run as deep as 40 metres below ground. At other "tight spots" the tunnels are "stacked" one over the other so they can follow canal and street alignment. Modern technology should have a part to play in solving this problem.

However the good news from my point of view is that Hawkins Street alignment does not pass under the Usher library. Trinity says,

East Route: (Red Route) The East route commences underground at St. Stephens Green and continues north via dons near Hawkins Street, O'Connel Street, Mater Hospital, Drumcondra and Griffith Avenue to emerge from tunnel on the Swords Road near Whitehall. From there the route continues on an elevated structure and at grade along the Mi motorway to a park-and-ride near the MIIMSO interchange and then onto an elevated station at the airport. The route then continues to Swords. Figure 3 shows this route as it crosses the TCD campus. It can be seen that although this is called the East Route it is in the middle position of the three proposed routes through TCD. The route enters TCD property from Nassau Street between Dawson Street and South Fredrick Street. The route proposed requires tunnelling under the Arts Building, Fellows Square, the Old Library, the Rubrics, the GMB and exiting the campus under No16 Botany Bay. The station, to be known as 'Tara' is located at the rear of the School of Nursing on Hawkins Street.

The ultimate irony is that the East route connects with both Tara and Drumcondra, so perhaps Philip and I will both be satisfied! But as the RPA are hinting hybrids, I can picture the central route continuing after O'Connell Street. The metro must serve Glasnevin, DCU and the new Ballymun.

The Eastern route is the shortest route through the college and the one on the straightest alignment.

Good news.

However, its route brings it under the Arts building, constructed in the late 20th century which has basements and which holds many of the college student examinations. The route then travels under the old library, one of the city's most historic buildings and dating from 1712. No details of the alignment from here are available other than those in Appendix 2 so it appears that the route will be under or very close to the Rubrics Building. This is also among the oldest surviving buildings on the college campus and was constructed circa 1720. The section through the building in Appendix 3 gives rise to concerns about the effect of tunnelling on the building, which was showing signs of distress in 1892. Originally the library had a high flat ceiling.

Now this all smacks of scaremongering and nimbyism. Yeah, the buildings are old. They're architectural gems. Nobody wants to see them damaged. But Trinity is going to have to just put its faith in the project team who will no doubt be constantly monitoring, checking and verifying that the no building is threatened by the tunnel.

Nothing is going to happen to Trinity. It's 16,000 students and staff stand to benefit greatly from the metro stop at Trinity, so the college would do well to show some support, not needless scaremongering.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

The ultimate irony is that the East route connects with both Tara and Drumcondra, so perhaps Philip and I will both be satisfied! But as the RPA are hinting hybrids, I can picture the central route continuing after O'Connell Street. The metro must serve Glasnevin, DCU and the new Ballymun.

Huh? You obviously aren't aware of the actual hybrid route the RPA are looking at! They are talking (roughly) central route from the green to north inner city, then following the east route to Drumcondra then cutting across the Tolka Valley (not shown on any alignment maps) to the Glasnevin DCU stop and then following the central route to the Airport. That's what the RPA mean by hybrid and it will serve all the places you mentioned. It would not serve Phibsborough however.

MarkoP11

The metro alignment that appeared on the TCD development plan does not pass under the Ussher Library, it bears no resemblance to any of the options on the new map, the RPA changed the alignment without consulting TCD, thats what lead to this now public spat

spacetweek

Route: (Red Route) The East route ...

Off topic but what type of weird OCR is going on here?
"continues north via dons" - ??
"along the Mi motorway" - M1
"MIIMSO" - M1/M50

popebenny16

Whoever designed the Usher library should be shot.

Yes, well, that's reasonable enough.

"continues north via dons" - ??

Dont they have Dons in Trinity? Perhaps its going through their offices?

ad hoc

According to today's Irish Times, the RPA will be tunneling 20 metres below TCD and not the 10m that their consultants apparently told Trinity on 13 April, 2006. Well, will it be 10m (April estimate) or 20m (June estimate)?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2006/0608/266127028HM4METROTRINITY.html

dowlingm

Could someone with access to the IT article indicate whether an increase in depth to 20m has been costed?

markf909

dowlingm, here is the quote from todays Irish Times

A spokesperson for the RPA said: "We've evaluated Trinity's submission and we will take it into consideration when we decide on a route.

"Nothing is impossible when it comes to tunnelling. There would be no physical obstacles and we would be talking about tunnelling 20 metres under Trinity."

The RPA is due to make a decision on the route at the end of next month.

MarkoP11

I think TCD were working off a 10m depth whic explains this statement

Therefore we request that fewer studies be carried out to align the tunnel away from the campus and to attempt to create a straight line between the commencement station at St. Stephens Green and O'Connell Street by following the Grafton Street, College Green, Westmoreland Street route mainly under roads. Alternatively, if the depth of the tunnel is increasing as it approaches the River Liffey, then an Eastern alignment down Kildare Street and across College Park and the new Square may potentially reduce the number of college buildings affected.

dowlingm

markf909 - thanks

quite a statement "nothing is impossible when it comes to tunnelling" - well it's only public money after all...

markf909

quite a statement "nothing is impossible when it comes to tunnelling"

Sounds like they have been watching too many addidas adds :eek: