Noel Dempsey learns the secret of slowing down time

L1011

I can't remember where I read/heard it, but apparently Dialup Dempsey claimed that we'll be able to switch off our analogue TV signals in 2012.

Has he got the means to slow down time? Or a time machine in his house in Meath where he can go back to 1998 and give the DTT contract to someone that had more than a Powerpoint jobbie as backup? Theres a not a hope in hell of even 35% adoption by 2012 if the rollout goes to two TX's this year and then slowly after that.

Or, knowing that they'll likely lose the next election, are they trying to leave a timebomb to go off in 2012 when half the country loses their TV under the watch of the next government with an election weeks away?

byte

I think 2012 would be achievable as there are only 4 million in the country. Dunno how many households that equates to.

But, since it'll be 2008 before they finish even trialling it, I suppose 2012 will be pushing it unless they gradually upgrade Tx's within the trial period also.

Laguna

Can this man (Dempsey) do anything right in regards to the position he is employed for, telecommunications?. What the **** does he actually do?, in my opinion he should at least be bending over backwards to make broadband a universal service obligation (via some means or another, be it phoneline DSL or wireless) so EVERYONE, YES, EVERYONE can get broadband in this country. But no, he'll do ****ing nothing instead.

L1011

Theres 103 TXs and relays in the list I have here, and I know they've added more since.

The transmitters have their fibre feeds and could be done relatively easy. That leaves at least 93 (theres ten main, right?) relay transmission sites that are fed on off-air relays (can be made work, but unreliably, with DTT), and which are going to need to carry at least mux - although all 6 would be best if theres frequencies available (as we've planned to use SFN in mountainous regions, there should be). And off-air relaying doesn't work with SFN.

So how the hell do they intend to get all those sites linked to the network and rigged up with the transmission kit/antennae? RTENL already have to subcontract work to Killarney as it is.

watty

There is no way a analog switch off is possible in 2012 unless the government pays for a network rollout AND gives everyone 1 to 3 set-top boxes free.

Sat feeds is the only quick cheap way to feed the network, but the current plan is to feed everything with 34Mbps terrestrial fibre, which they are rolling out at the momemt. Relays/Transposers can't currently be used with DTT (direct feed needed) though BBC research on this is promising and they demo'ed a repeater for DTT.

flogen

Freeview is in around 6.2 million homes (according to the Wikipedia) in less tha 4 years which means that it is possible, but of course you can't really compare the set up in the UK with Ireland, especially considering the fact that a system was inherited by Freeview in 2002, where the Irish DTT service has to start from scratch.

I think it could be done, but I'm not expecting it to be; as for the government needing to give 1-3 boxes to each house, not a chance, even if they were to give free boxes away it would be one per house, that way they could say every house was enabled, and they'd switch over even if the 2 or so extra TV's in thousands of houses didn't have a signal.

byte

Depending on the formats they will use, boxes could be cheap enough.

If it's a case where the boxes in UK will work over here, it would be fairly handy. And then TV sets should be sold with DTT tuners built in. Some of the newer Sony Bravia range now all have "Freeview" tuners built in as standard, even on the screens distributed in ROI.

lawhec

There is no way a analog switch off is possible in 2012 unless the government pays for a network rollout AND gives everyone 1 to 3 set-top boxes free.

There is no way that'll happen, it would to my knowledge break several EU laws on competition.

In the Republic, achieving an analogue switch-off by 2012 is perfectly possible provided they pull their finger out very soon. The Danes (a country with a population in size similar to that of the Irish Republic) have only just launched their DTT network yet are targeting a 2009 switch-off.

In fact it could be argued that the ATT switch-off in the Republic could be much easier than that in the UK, as a higher percentage of homes have either cable or satellite. In Germany they're not messing around - the general time taken from start of DVB-T services to the shutdown of analogue services in the same reason is taking only 9-12 months! It could be argued that Three Rock and Spur Hill (and possibly Holywell Hill) could undergo a similar conversion. It is more in rural areas where off-air reception is more dependent. The Aussies are following that pattern, closing down urban transmitters first followed by those in rural areas.

The analogue-terrestial switch-off will depend on several factors, roll-out of the network, choice of services, cost of conversion and availability of the equiptment needed for conversion.

With regards to networking - for an SFN satellite is perhaps the easiest way to network. This is done for Mux A in the UK and for the French DTT network. However for "relays", much of the current technology makes relaying DTT tricky, though I believe that the Swiss already can do this and that the BBC are developing a "better" system for MFN. Indeed the BBC have developed a DAB "relay" which can transmit on the same multiplex it receives from to extend DAB coverage. The theory behind this technology could be used for SFN on DTT, but is maybe a bit of a way to come yet.

L1011

Where is Mux A carried on satellite?

IF our DTT has the UK ATT channels on it, free of charge, the takeup right would be phenomenal and give Comreg a good reason to kill deflectors. If not, it might be a very, very hard system to sell.

byrnefm

MYOB wrote:

...would be phenomenal and give Comreg a good reason to kill deflectors.

I suspect that that's not going to happen - I know that in SW Donegal, that RTÉ are planning on upgrading the local deflectors to improve their signal for RTÉ - but you never know...

watty

MYOB wrote:

Where is Mux A carried on satellite?

IF our DTT has the UK ATT channels on it, free of charge, the takeup right would be phenomenal and give Comreg a good reason to kill deflectors. If not, it might be a very, very hard system to sell.

Absolutely.

And I'm pushing to have all the channels from ITV, BBC, C4 and Five FTA on DTT here.

Sponge Bob

MYOB wrote:

I can't remember where I read/heard it, but apparently Dialup Dempsey claimed that we'll be able to switch off our analogue TV signals in 2012.

You possibly heard it here initially. As you can see Anoelogue Dempsey is full of crap.

watty

I heard it from his own self, live last wednesday in O'Reilly Hall UCD. Comreg /OECD event.

Sponge Bob

From http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20060530.xml&Node=H3-2&Page=3

The digital terrestrial television, DTT, pilot programme is being implemented by my Department. The purpose of the pilot is to bring further momentum to the transition to digital terrestrial broadcasting and to test and trial various aspects of the service. Detailed procurement processes, inviting expressions of interest and tenders for various aspects of the infrastructure build programme, were recently completed by my Department. The infrastructure for the DTT pilot is in the roll-out phase and is expected to be operational by autumn 2006.

The initial transmission sites are at Clermont Carn in the north east and Three Rock covering parts of the Dublin region. The trial is planned to continue over a two-year timeframe and will provide the opportunity for technical and user testing of both existing and new broadcast services.

In regard to spectrum for DTT, a major conference under the auspices of the International Telecommunications Union is taking place in Geneva between European, African and Middle Eastern countries, which will set the rules to ensure that each country gets equitable access and protection for spectrum for digital broadcasting. Ireland is represented at the conference by a delegation headed by an official of my Department and includes representatives from ComReg, the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland and RTE.

Once the conference has concluded we may begin to develop a plan to manage the digitisation process to ensure protection to our existing analogue services and to manage any moves to digital terrestrial television in Ireland.

The DTT pilot project under way demonstrates my commitment to the long-term provision of free-to-air DTT in Ireland. I expect the pilot will generate awareness and discussion among broadcasters, investors and other interested parties with a view to moving towards a full national roll-out of DTT in time.

As the pilot is developed and proposals for a national DTT roll-out emerge, I will outline my intentions regarding possible dates for a switch-off of analogue to digital terrestrial television broadcasts. Switch-off of analogue television services is being strongly advocated by the European Commission, with 2012 a target date suggested by the Commission. While the pilot is under way, I intend to hold discussions with all relevant stakeholders around the issue of analogue switch-off. When decisions have been taken about the nature and timing of analogue switch-over, it will be necessary to ensure that Irish viewers are fully informed of all the issues arising. All stakeholders will have a role in so informing viewers.

He will revisit the FUD after August 2008 but only if pressurised. It has all the ambition of a Banana ! WTF is this crap ??????

we may begin to develop a plan to manage the digitisation process to ensure protection to our existing analogue services

Is that a threat to Ofcom O Anoelogue ????

lawhec

MYOB wrote:

Where is Mux A carried on satellite?

IF our DTT has the UK ATT channels on it, free of charge, the takeup right would be phenomenal and give Comreg a good reason to kill deflectors. If not, it might be a very, very hard system to sell.

I believe the UK Mux A satellite signal is located on a Eutelsat satellite, 16E.

The big obstacle regarding UK ATT channels being FTA on a RoI DTT system is rights clearence. ITV (or more specific, UTV) may be OK if TV3 don't have heavy objections, Channel 4 would be in the same boat. Five have little interest in the market, but that attitude might change with RTL now starting a mutlichannel banner in the UK. The inclusion of the BBC I think would hold political difficulties - currently cable, MMDS and "Sky" ensure that the BBC are paid for their carriage, FTA on DTT in RoI would prove immensly difficult. You could point out that anyone can have a FTA satellite receiver and watch the beeb, but having it actually transmit on a licenced transmitter in the Republic is a very different matter. On a subscription basis, its possible but I'd doubt it for FTA.

watty

FTA UK on DTT does have to be paid for. For the Network operator Free to Carry and Pay to Carry are the categories.

The basic UK "FTA" would be paid for out of Pay TV revenue. The amount is not much if you look at what NTL/Chorus and Sky pay BBC and what NTL/Chorus pay for ITV / C4. Very cheap compared with "Sky1" as it is recognised that ITV/BBC is FTA anyway. I'm surprised how cheap Five and C4 seem to be.

marclt

So with some movement happening, does anyone know what frequencies will be used???

flogen

Just to update figures I cited earlier:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds33907.html

The number of homes with Freeview as its primary service has overtaken the number of analogue-only homes for the first time, according to Ofcom.

The regulator's latest Digital Television Update - analysing uptake of digital TV for the first quarter of this year - reported that 7.1 million homes are now "DTT Only", while 6.9 million have no form of multichannel television.

So in 4 years 7.1 million households are DTT only; that's very impressive; CSO figures for 2002 say Ireland has 1,287,958 households (I'm sure that's well up in the upcoming figures) so if we can emulate the British rate 2012 will be no problem at all; of course it's not that simple and the hardest houses to convert will be with elderly citizens, something that is likely to become an issue in the UK over the coming years

watty

Assuming we actually start. I've seen nor heard no rollout plan. The current Pilot seems to run in Glorious isolation to what has been and will be.

OK, MPEG was not trialled before, but that is just a content change, makes no different to the transmission or coverage or usability of a set box.

BowWow

Comment on DTT from RTE Annual Report-
"Work will continue towards the introduction of Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT), which will be a large part of RTÉNL’s future business. The introduction of DTT and the switch-off of analogue television services is being planned and implemented across Europe. Analogue television services in Ireland have a limited future. However current legislation is an impediment to the development of a DTT platform in Ireland and changes are necessary to bring DTT to fruition."
Full report here-
http://www.rte.ie/about/ar2005/english/dg_review.html

flogen

BowWow wrote:

Comment on DTT from RTE Annual Report-
"Work will continue towards the introduction of Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT), which will be a large part of RTÉNL’s future business. The introduction of DTT and the switch-off of analogue television services is being planned and implemented across Europe. Analogue television services in Ireland have a limited future. However current legislation is an impediment to the development of a DTT platform in Ireland and changes are necessary to bring DTT to fruition."
Full report here-
http://www.rte.ie/about/ar2005/english/dg_review.html

I don't know the act from back to front, but I thought the Broadcasting Act 2001 was made with DTT in mind, to make the move easy? Of course aspects of it like the creation of the BAI, the seperation of TG4 frmo RTÉ, etc. etc. have not yet happened, and the situation in which it was drawn up has changed quite a lot too

watty

Yes. RTE are right AND you are right!

The ACT was meant to do as you say. But it turned out that commercially the proposals in the act was unattractive which is why we have no DTT. A different approach is need than the 2001 act.

flogen

watty wrote:

Yes. RTE are right AND you are right!

The ACT was meant to do as you say. But it turned out that commercially the proposals in the act was unattractive which is why we have no DTT. A different approach is need than the 2001 act.

As in the sale of RTÉ NL etc.?
From the piece I did on DTT a while back I know TG4 are waiting for independence before they make moves and TV3 say that the "unlevel" playing field in Ireland is making them hold back on digital services too; I'd say if the BAI was sorted out we'd see another TV3 station well before DTT wen't national, even if it was only a +1 channel for the time being.

byte

TV3 have always been complaining about the unlevel playing field. No excuse for some of the content they air though.

There was a story at the back of the Business supplement in the Sunday Times regarding the amount of money RTÉ are making (€170m from license and €200m from advertising).

Unfortunately I can't link to the story on timesonline.

For a second TV3 channel, I'd expect them to maybe offer a TV3 Gold or something along the lines of ITV2. Dunno if a timeshift channel could be easily worked, with regards to rights etc.

Charles Slane

Did I imagine it or was there a report recently saying that Channel 6 was going to launch a +1 channel and a music channel (I really don't know if I dreamt that but it seems real).

Found a link to that Times story, Byte - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2230256,00.html

Wealthy RTE has no excuse for poor programming

RTE treads a fine line between self-congratulation, when it stomps on the opposition, and puppy-faced penury, when it comes to licence fee application time. It is an amazing double act worthy of Barnum and Bailey or Starsky and Hutch.

The state broadcaster pulled €170.1m in licence fees last year, up 80% since 2000. Its commercial revenue was just short of €200m.

When the full-year contribution of the most recent licence fee hits the accounts in 2006, RTE will be taking close to €200m from the viewers and its total budget will swell to more than €400m.

That’s a lot of money for reheated formulations of British game shows such as its recent Test the Nation. In fairness, the state broadcaster has upped its game in the past two years, but with that kind of loot sloshing about it had no excuses on the programming front.

RTE is the big gorilla in the television jungle here. Its two television channels sucked in some €140m in advertising last year, an astonishing 27% more than on the previous year.

The latest set of accounts will be required reading for Doughty Hanson, the new shareholders in TV3. Under previous ownership, the independent firm consistently argued that the RTE licence fee subsidised programming costs and programming acquisition, which has helped push its commercial revenue, copper-fastening RTE’s dominance in the market.

From these latest RTE numbers, it looks a pretty convincing argument.

byte

Ah, you found the article. I couldn't find it on the website.

flogen

Charles Slane wrote:

Did I imagine it or was there a report recently saying that Channel 6 was going to launch a +1 channel and a music channel (I really don't know if I dreamt that but it seems real).

Yeah, the Indo had a small piece on that a week or so ago.

Charles Slane

flogen wrote:

Yeah, the Indo had a small piece on that a week or so ago.

Phew! Thanks! Thought I was losing it!

a bientot

In general terms I would suggest that when the 'real service' DTT begins in Ireland it will include up to 8 free channels and the n the add-on pay channels to include BBC - all this to be marketed at the same time.
The French and the British launched their free channels first and then months later launched pay channels.
The copyright/royalties paid by the Belgians seems to be about 7 euro per subscriber per year. Marketing of cable in Bruxelles used to be done on the basis of price of basic package (30 channels) per year for 140 euros and then the copyright fee was shown as an extra akin to 'ryanairy'.............