A fan in some despair

chern0byl

Whenever i have some doubt about supporting my county[in hurling], i can always turn to my dad for some support. When my football team are not doing so well, there is always plenty of support to put it all in perspective but i am in real trouble at the moment. My F1 support is all for a cheat. F1 is far from cool these days, so support is nowhere to be found.

I have supported Scumi for[counting....] nearly 15 years and i have always known that he is a cheater and certainly been involved with cheaters. I turned a blind eye to it years ago when my support was more 'die hard' and Schumi's brilliance as a driver was clear to be seen.

It hasnt been an issue until last weekend when i my gut instinct was that he had parked it[time only clouded my judgement ....for a while]. My initial reaction was that it was a clever move but i dont like being associated with cheats and Schumi is one.

The problem is this: if i cant support Schumi, then i cant support anyone. It just wouldnt feel right.

What do you think?

SouperComputer

start competing yourself, then you wont give a to$$

Running Bing

Nice to see an honest post from a schumi fan. F1 support really is thin these days though. When I tell people I like f1 racing sometimes I feel like im admitting being a dungeons and dragons fan or something:o Thats not right. The best thing you can do is ask yourself what team is bad now but will be great in a few years. That way when they start winning you can say "All these bloody jump on the bandwagon fans ive been supportin [insert team here] since they were shiit and couldnt get a podium.;)

chern0byl

Strange as it may be to some, i dont really care about the teams. Im a schumacher fan, and wherever he goes so does my support.
F1 is seriously nerdy these days....downforce, drag, clean living drivers....yawn

steviec

I've been a Schumacher fan for as long as I can remember too, around 92/93 I guess when I was only 8 or 9 years old. My memories now are pretty fuzzy, but I remember some great drives at the time particularly in the wet, and how he was the first to finally take down the undefeatable Williams team of the day(I was too young to remember the McLarens that dominated a couple of years earlier)

It was never a conscious decision, let's support Schumacher, it just built up as he overcame the odds time and time again and really showed what he was made of. No other driver has ever shown me that. Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, they all faded away as soon as they didn't have the best car on the grid. But Schumacher had shown obvious talent right from the beginning, and when things got easy at Benetton he went to a decidedly also-ran Ferrari team in 1996, proved to be immediately competitive and who could forget that wet race in Spain. In Seasons when he's clearly had the best car, like 2002 and 2004, he's blown away the opposition in a way nobody else has. In Seasons when he's had the second best car, he's still always competed and indeed got many race victories, and has never been out of the title hunt. Even last year, when he had an awful car and people were saying he should retire before it gets embarrassing, he still pulled off an exciting drive at Imola and he's really come back strong this year.

Kimi Raikkonen never looked special at Sauber. His team mate, Nick Heidfeld, always looked the better of the two. He got a lucky break to get the drive at McLaren, and I think a number of drivers on the F1 grid would have done as well as he has with that car.

Alonso is a great driver, there's no denying that, even at Minardi he looked special. But where are those incredible race wins to look back on? It seems every race he's won has been thanks to just being the fastest on the day. I can't think of any great saves, or any race he grabbed by the scruff of the neck, or any aggressive strategies to finish higher than his package should have got him, or any brilliant reactions to changeable weather or different situations that arose. These are all areas that I think Schumacher has stood out on over the years.

If there's one driver on the grid right now that I'd choose next to Michael Schumacher, it's Mark Webber, he consistently put his Jaguar on the front row of the grid a couple of years ago, and he seems to be capable of doing things that the package shouldn't be able to do. Monaco was another example of that, there's no way that Williams should have had the pace to match the Renault and McLaren but it did, had it not been for Fisichella blocking him and then his engine blowing he could have challenged for victory.

There's actually an interesting table here:

http://www.f1-facts.com/statistics/drivers/comparison_points

It sorts all drivers statistically by their results compared to their team mates, there's really no fairer comparison(well, it's a little unfair on Rubens Barrichello...). Schumi is number one by a long distance and then of the current drivers, Webber is number two and Alonso is number 3.

To get back on topic, what Schumacher did at Monaco was deliberate, and I'd prefer if he'd just admit it but i guess he's not going to go back on his story at this stage. The thing is, he had what was a matter of milliseconds in his car as the wheel locked to decide 'I could correct this and possibly lose pole, or I could stop and keep pole', in a race car with so little time, and when you are as competitive as he is, he made the choice. Everyone knows Senna and Prost have run eachother off the road in the past. What makes Schumacher worse? He made a poor decision but it was really part of his genius that he's always thinking of how to gain an advantage from each and every situation. How many other drivers have sat in their car as it was on fire in the pitlane signalling to the pit crew to let him out so he can go win the race?

And I think race day just underlined what I like about Schumacher. While everyone was criticising him he just sucked it all in and drove an incredible race. 22nd to 5th on a track where overtaking is impossible. He could have grabbed a podium if the safety car hadn't worked out so badly and put him an entire lap behind coulthard(he proceeded to make up over a minute in the 20 laps remaining). Alonso came away with the win having done nothing worth talking about in the entire weekend. He drove around and around at a steady pace, with the people behind him looking much racier but eventually falling victim to reliability. Alonso did nothing wrong, but he certainly didn't do anything to make the race exciting, unlike Schumacher. I was hoping for a mini race between Alonso and Schumacher as Michael tried to unlap himself(similar happened at Monaco between Prost and Senna in 93 I think?) but Alonso just slowed down and got out of the way, I know it was the sensible choice but still. I think in a role reversal, knowing Schumacher, he'd have been trying to back Alonso into Fisichella to gain maximum advantage.

Schumacher is enormously gifted and produces extremely exciting races, and I can forgive what he did for what it was - a lapse of judgement due to his single minded quest to push for the maximum possible result in every single race.

chern0byl

steviec wrote:

and I can forgive what he did for what it was

I had to find that forgiveness in 97 and then twice in 2002. I thought the USA was the greatest mockery of F1 i will ever see.

Australia 1994 was just racing to me, but the team were cheating all the way through the season.

Its just embarassing tbh.

I agree with pretty much all you say. He is the greatest of all time.

steviec

Here's a good video.

As I said, what happened in 97, is it any different to what Senna or Prost did? Or when Coulthard braked on the racing line in front of Schumacher at Spa 98 looked ever so slightly dodgy, those points cost Schumacher the championship, not to mention what would have been one of his most outstanding race win as he blew the rest of the field away. Teams bend the rules all the time.

When Rubens let Schumacher past, it was an absolutely stupid decision and there was no reason for it. But was it all that different to Coulthard letting Hakkinen past in the very first race of the season in 98, there was certainly no championship on the line then either. That was Hakkinen's second free victory in a row after Williams and McLaren colluded to hand Hakkinen the win in 97 so Villeneuve could nurse his car. At Spa 98 after Michael was punted out, Ralf Schumacher was winning and had to let Damon Hill past, because it was in their contract. Team orders aren't exactly reserved for Ferrari. Or Michael for that matter, there were no complaints when Michael did the job for Eddie at Malaysia 99. I'm of the opinion it's a team sport and should be treated as such. When Eddie and Michael coordinated to get Villeneuve behind him and keep him there at Suzuka 97, I thought it was some brilliant teamwork and should be applauded. Instead the FIA have gone and banned such tactics. Within limits of course, seems it was perfectly ok for Fisichella who was a lap down to destroy Mark Webber's hopes of beating Alonso at Monaco last weekend.

Michael Schumacher's no saint, but it's not like F1 is one big happily family with the exception of him coming in and cheating his way to success. Everyone stretches the rules to breaking point at times and I don't think there's anything Schumacher has done wrong that nobody else has done at some point or another.

chern0byl

steviec wrote:

Or when Coulthard braked on the racing line in front of Schumacher at Spa 98 looked ever so slightly dodgy.

I screamed 'brake test' when i first seen it, but it wasnt. Coulthard just stupidly came off the accelerator.

The USA gp was the greatest mockery ever. ' i tried for a dead heat and messed it up'....the win didnt even matter.

Dcully

You can spout on about schumi all you like ,NOBODY says he isnt a great driver but i hate cheaters with a passion,to me that is the bottom line.
Listen to yourselves making excuses for him lol
It seems because of his records on the track and achievements he is allowed to cheat according to you.

and I can forgive what he did for what it was

judging by your posts here of diehard worshiping thats no surprise.

- a lapse of judgement due to his single minded quest to push for the maximum possible result in every single race.

Oh give it a rest and get real man will ya :rolleyes:
lapse of judgement as you refer to it where everyone else including professionals past and present see it as it is ,cheating.
Yet again your red tinted glasses are obscuring your view

Running Bing

I think thats a good point. When the topic of cheating is brought up the conversation nearly always reverts back to how good a driver schumacher is and because its just his "will to win" he can be forgiven. Well excuse me but thats bullshiit. Scumacher is the most successful driver ever and quite possibly the most talented but that doesnt make the slightest bit of difference cheating is cheating wheter its schumi or yuji ide. And another thing, all the drivers want to win. you might even be surprised to find out (brace yourself) that some want to win as much as schumacher so dont give me that holier than thou crap of how schumacher just wants it more than other drivers.

Ps whats the point of the video StevieC? Weve all seen schumacher drive and celebrate on the podium.

Dcully

Ps whats the point of the video StevieC? Weve all seen schumacher drive and celebrate on the podium

Its just more silly flag waving,oh schumi i love you nomatter what you do :rolleyes:
LOL this is hilarious.

chern0byl

Dcully wrote:

Its just more silly flag waving,oh schumi i love you nomatter what you do

Its that alright, but i did enjoy it. Even if it was one of the worst ones i have seen yet.

edwin privitera

steviec wrote:

Here's a good video.

As I said, what happened in 97, is it any different to what Senna or Prost did? Or when Coulthard braked on the racing line in front of Schumacher at Spa 98 looked ever so slightly dodgy, those points cost Schumacher the championship, not to mention what would have been one of his most outstanding race win as he blew the rest of the field away. Teams bend the rules all the time.

When Rubens let Schumacher past, it was an absolutely stupid decision and there was no reason for it. But was it all that different to Coulthard letting Hakkinen past in the very first race of the season in 98, there was certainly no championship on the line then either. That was Hakkinen's second free victory in a row after Williams and McLaren colluded to hand Hakkinen the win in 97 so Villeneuve could nurse his car. At Spa 98 after Michael was punted out, Ralf Schumacher was winning and had to let Damon Hill past, because it was in their contract. Team orders aren't exactly reserved for Ferrari. Or Michael for that matter, there were no complaints when Michael did the job for Eddie at Malaysia 99. I'm of the opinion it's a team sport and should be treated as such. When Eddie and Michael coordinated to get Villeneuve behind him and keep him there at Suzuka 97, I thought it was some brilliant teamwork and should be applauded. Instead the FIA have gone and banned such tactics. Within limits of course, seems it was perfectly ok for Fisichella who was a lap down to destroy Mark Webber's hopes of beating Alonso at Monaco last weekend.

Michael Schumacher's no saint, but it's not like F1 is one big happily family with the exception of him coming in and cheating his way to success. Everyone stretches the rules to breaking point at times and I don't think there's anything Schumacher has done wrong that nobody else has done at some point or another.

Its very obvious, when ever there is the best formula 1 driver in the world its only logical that people have different opinions of what he does, its as simple as that. people would never run down drivers like fisichella and so many others for worse mistakes or misdoings. i can only come to one conclusion - the more schumi wins races the more people find things to say about him. so lets hope there be much more about schumi after the uk grand prix.

Running Bing

edwin privitera wrote:

Its very obvious, when ever there is the best formula 1 driver in the world its only logical that people have different opinions of what he does, its as simple as that. people would never run down drivers like fisichella and so many others for worse mistakes or misdoings. i can only come to one conclusion - the more schumi wins races the more people find things to say about him. so lets hope there be much more about schumi after the uk grand prix.

See there it is again bringing his standing and driving skills into it. I have nothing against schumi and never minded him at all(check previous posts before incident), If anything I liked him becuase of his determination but this incident has changed my view on him as it would if any driver did it including fisichella or a driver I admired.

Munurty

I have grown up watching F1 too, following Schumacher and Jordan. However in recent years I've just got bored of it. Nowadays I couldn't even be bothered watching at all.

I've got a solution for you chern0byl. Follow MotoGP instead.

I've been following MotoGP now for two years and it’s amazing in comparison. There’s so much more drama during the races. You can have more overtaking manoeuvres in one lap of MotoGP than a whole race of F1

Even Michael thinks so. That’s him on the back of a two seater ducati yesterday in Mugello.

OSiriS

I originally had a soft spot for schumacher after he started with Jordan. My hatred started with his dispicable action toward Damon Hill at Adelaide in 94. The next few years were spend watching the races with a fellow shumacher hater swapping colourful ideas of how schumacher could die. Just when I thought I could never support Schumacher, Villeneuve arrived on the scene. Something about him made me instantly dislike him even more than Schumi and I cheered for Schumacher all of 97 until Jerez. That was the nail in the coffin. Monaco was just a further reminder of past crimes

While I have no problem admitting that he is a good driver, I am not entirely convinced of his ability. There has been a distinct lack of real talent on the grid. Combine that with the growing dominance of engineering, and I just think schumacher's success is more down to good timing rather than pure driving ability. These days Schumachers so-called genius amounts to Ross Brawn telling him to bang in a few fast laps before a pitstop so he can win races on pit strategy.

chern0byl

Munurty wrote:

I've got a solution for you chern0byl. Follow MotoGP instead.

Thanks. I have watched MotoGP for years. I know that it seems MotoGP has action right to the last corner but in many aspects it is predictable. I do enjoy it though, but bikes are nowhere as cool as F1.

OSiriS wrote:

his dispicable action toward Damon Hill at Adelaide in 94.

Schumi's car was fooked but he was more than entitled to race on, hold the racing line and thats what he did.

OSiriS

Get a video of the incident and watch it, he wasn;t trying to hold the racing line any more than his incident with JV.

Running Bing

Munurty wrote:

Follow MotoGP instead.

The racing in motoGp is without a doubt action packed but bikes just never did it for me. Watched the irl on sunday and I must say it was absolutely cracking racing. way more action than f1(it was a road circuit). Shame theres only four road races during the year, oval racing bores me to tears. F1 could learn a lot from IRl. Having said that though Indy car is lacking that certain glamour that f1 has. They look like there racing at the back of a junkyard. Champcar is decent too and I watch that from time to time it being predominatly road circuits.

edwin privitera

OSiriS wrote:

I originally had a soft spot for schumacher after he started with Jordan. My hatred started with his dispicable action toward Damon Hill at Adelaide in 94. The next few years were spend watching the races with a fellow shumacher hater swapping colourful ideas of how schumacher could die. Just when I thought I could never support Schumacher, Villeneuve arrived on the scene. Something about him made me instantly dislike him even more than Schumi and I cheered for Schumacher all of 97 until Jerez. That was the nail in the coffin. Monaco was just a further reminder of past crimes

While I have no problem admitting that he is a good driver, I am not entirely convinced of his ability. There has been a distinct lack of real talent on the grid. Combine that with the growing dominance of engineering, and I just think schumacher's success is more down to good timing rather than pure driving ability. These days Schumachers so-called genius amounts to Ross Brawn telling him to bang in a few fast laps before a pitstop so he can win races on pit strategy.

it does seem u acknowledge that schumi is a good driver but have serious doubts about his capabilities. u've said it all, its so clear to me and all who read your above contribution - u cant stand the bloke and make it look so easy to win a race. all u need to do is listen to ross brawn telling u something and u just win the race!!! i suppose that ur next post will be after the uk grand prix next week when u would tell us whether schumi managed to listened to ross

OSiriS

Yet again you entirely miss the point. Take off your rose tinted schumi worshop glasses and pay attention. Yes schumacher is a good driver, and yes he has been one of the best if not the best driver in F1 for the last few years. If you sent an average honours level student into a pass exam would you proclaim him a genius when he comes out with an A? Schumacher's success is partly his ability and partly the timing of his career. I'm not sure why you have the additude that everyone must worship your hero as you do. His ability has nothing to do with my opinion of him, it's his ethics that I disapprove of. Sure he drives well most of the time, but back him into a corner and he will cheat if he thinks he can get away with it. Like Dcully, I dispise cheaters. While I will respect anyones right to overlokk this cheating, I find it laughable that many schumacher fans will make excuses for him.

SouperComputer

edwin privitera wrote:

it does seem u acknowledge that schumi is a good driver but have serious doubts about his capabilities. u've said it all, its so clear to me and all who read your above contribution - u cant stand the bloke and make it look so easy to win a race. all u need to do is listen to ross brawn telling u something and u just win the race!!! i suppose that ur next post will be after the uk grand prix next week when u would tell us whether schumi managed to listened to ross

Join gamer in my ignore list edwin.

steviec

Dcully wrote:

Its just more silly flag waving,oh schumi i love you nomatter what you do :rolleyes:
LOL this is hilarious.

The original post was a guy saying he was a Schumacher fan looking for some reassurance after Monaco. A short video of a few of Schumacher's career highlights was far more on-topic than one-liner posts putting down other posters so you can feel big.

I never said what he did in Monaco wasn't wrong, but a bad decision made in a split second doesn't negate many years of hard work and brilliant driving. Same goes for the incident with Villeneuve. People don't let what Senna did to Prost(and vice versa) tarnish the man's brilliant career - and that wasn't even a split second decision but a premeditated one, which is much worse. Other drivers have blatantly closed the door on eachother many many times, people just don't take as much notice when a championship isn't at stake.

Dcully

lol ,how many edits is it now

steviec

Dcully wrote:

lol ,how many edits is it now

Seriously, what was the point of that post? You don't have any point to make so you're trying to bring attention to something completely irrelevant in an attempt to insult me?

I decided I wanted to add something so I clicked edit rather than double post, I wasn't aware there was anything funny about that.

I've no problem with you insulting F1 drivers and debating Motorsports all you want but you've made two posts now that I could take personally.

Dcully

Seriously, what was the point of that post? You don't have any point to make so you're trying to bring attention to something completely irrelevant in an attempt to insult me?

I decided I wanted to add something so I clicked edit rather than double post, I wasn't aware there was anything funny about that.

I've no problem with you insulting F1 drivers and debating Motorsports all you want but you've made two posts now that I could take personally.

Insult?? yet again will you get real man,jeez your touchy about anything schumi arent you lol.
Take it personally if you wish,it wasnt intended that way,either way im not fussed its your call.

Ive made my point way back in this thread but your red shades get in the way of any decent chat or debate.
Nomatter what i or anybody say you will lick the ground your hero walks on regardless,i just find it hilarious is all.
You need to chillax dude.
Did you not notice the smilies in my posts? you do know what they mean dont you

steviec

Dcully wrote:

Insult?? yet again will you get real man,jeez your touchy about anything schumi arent you lol.

No I'm not touchy about anything Schumi - you're not even talking about Schumi. That's your fourth post in this thread - only one of which made any mention of Schumi or discussed anything motorsport related - the others were direct insults in response to my posts.

Other posters on this thread have criticised Schumacher which they have every right to do and I don't have a problem with, just as people have a right to defend him.. that's what a motorsports discussion forum is about isn't it?

If you disagree with a point I make, maybe you should argue the point rather than calling me blind and insulting my intelligence.

Dcully

I say again,there are no insults in there,your just reading what you want and not whats actually infront of you :rolleyes:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
There is a report button if you feel im insulting you or as you say your intelligence.

Jor

Fact 1. Michael is the most naturally talented driver for the last 10 - 15 years (over-all, if not every year.

Fact 2. Michael is ruthless. He loves to win and is determined to do whatever is in his power to win.
We saw that in 94 against DH and again in 97 against JV. What happened in Monaco is just latest in a series of such incidents. While it was not similar in nature to the 2 previous, I think it was just as serious and he should have been charged with putting the track-marshalls into a dangerous decision.

That said, he is just like my hero, Ayrton Senna in that respect.
So, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Michael is still great.

While many remember his charges through the field or brilliant drives in the wet, my favourite Schumi moment was a few years ago. I think it was at the British GP. Michael had just passed Ralf when he developed car trouble. Teammate Rubens was coming up fast. Michael had the presence of mind to position his car (completely fairly) in such a way that Rubens got past both of them before having to pit.
Martin Brundell commentating : " He stiffed his brother to help his teammate."

As for the Belgium GP incident, that was down to Michael. As a Jordan fan, I have the full race on video (Our first win). As Michael was coming up behind DC, Jean Toht went to the McLaren pit asking that DC allow him past unhindered. DC kept to one side of the track and slowed, giving Michael as much space as possible to overtake before the next bend.

Agree with Munurty about MotoGP. I'm not really a bike person but when F1 was mind-numbingly boring, (Ferrari 1st, Ferrari 2nd) it was a refuge for sports fans. Last weeks race in Italy was brilliant!

Jor

While it was not similar in nature to the 2 previous, I think it was just as serious and he should have been charged with putting the track-marshalls into a dangerous decision.

That should of course read "dangerous position".

thegoth

I am die hard Michael fan. I think he most likely parked the car on purpose in monaco, but I don't condemn him for it. Number one, it could have been an accident, but I doubt it. Number two, I think I might have done the same thing myself. Would a soccer player who pulled down a striker just before he scored be critised in the same way ? Are rugby players who stomp on players heads critised in the same way ? Are Nascar drivers who push in other into the wall at 200mph critised in the same way ? The answer to all these questions is No.

He made a mistake, even cheated, but he has paid for it. Look at Madonna in the 86 World cup. He cheated by using his hand to win the world cup. How is he punished? He becomes a worldwide hero. Vinney Jones, the famous English footballer. He made his name from breaking opponents bones. How is he punished by the public? He becomes a Hollywood film star !!!

This situation in Monaco has been blown out of all proportion.

OSiriS

thegoth wrote:

Would a soccer player who pulled down a striker just before he scored be critised in the same way ? Are rugby players who stomp on players heads critised in the same way ? The answer to all these questions is No.

lol The answer to those questions is yes. While I'm not sure about the disciplinary actions taken in rugby, the player in your soccer example would have been sent off and wouldn't be able to play in the next game. Judging by your other examples you have a very warped concept of reality. Sure some of these people are worshipped by thugs, but critics and most people with any sense of fairplay don't stand for such behaviour. If you want to come to Schumachers defense you'll need to do a hell of alot better than that.

Kersh

There is only one driver to support..... Senna.... he will never make mistakes, never cheat, his history is already written, so go find out all about him, read the books, and enjoy. The only legend of recent times.

OSiriS

I'm not sure I qould go quite that far, Prost and Senna had a number of questionable incidents, but the racing of their era was far more thrilling than that of the modern era.

Kersh

Yes, but Senna never had a bent car, and he never parked on track to spoil competitor laps.
Like I have said in other threads, i dont think Schumi cheated or whatever when he hit Villeneuve/Hill, thats just racing, questionable racing, but racing nonetheless. All drivers have these moments, but Schumi had abent cars, and deliberately spoiled laps for others.

steviec

Kersh wrote:

Yes, but Senna never had a bent car, and he never parked on track to spoil competitor laps.
Like I have said in other threads, i dont think Schumi cheated or whatever when he hit Villeneuve/Hill, thats just racing, questionable racing, but racing nonetheless. All drivers have these moments, but Schumi had abent cars, and deliberately spoiled laps for others.

I didn't know as much about Formula 1 in 94 as I do now, but a lot of googling about this only got me a statement from the FIA saying that they'd investigated the Launch Control and found Benetton guilty of no wrongdoing. And it's certainly not the first time a team are accused of having illegal systems - weren't McLaren accused of having an illegal brake system when they dominated in the late 90s? If we're assuming Benetton really were running an illegal system(and I honestly don't know one way or the other) then lets apply the same assumption to McLaren for a second. Does that mean Mika Hakkinen is a cheat?

No, that would be stupid, Mika Hakkinen is a driver, he didn't design the car. Schumacher on the other hand, when he's not out mugging old ladies, is a master of interpretting and finding ways to exploit the entire FIA rulebook, designing and building mechanical systems and writing complex software to manage these systems. He's more talented than people give him credit for!

Or maybe it was the engineers who worked on the car who came up with the system, and the management who approved it. You know, the same people who are responsible for Fernando Alonso's race winning car at the moment? I know Schumacher brought some people to Ferrari with him, but there are far more of that team at Renault than at Ferrari.

This is all hypothetical anyway, it doesn't seem to me that they were found guilty of anything. And it's not like the FIA went easy on them when they did find something to pull them up on - like the plank or the infamous incident when he pulled alongside Hill on a formation lap.

Kersh

Trust me, this discussion has been done, ask Endplate, the Fia found illegal traction/Launch control on the car. The team said it was de activated--- ye right ok, so if it was deactivated explain Mikeys awesome launch past Hill at Silverstone 94, and he couldnt stop the car from overtaking poleman Hill - He was banned for that manoevre, but the truth is the Launch control couldnt be 'deactivated' and Schumi had no hope or way to stop the launch. Does anyone remember this. Or find the thread I had with Endplate over it.
He had a bent car, and it was Senna who led the fIa to it.

steviec

Kersh wrote:

Trust me, this discussion has been done, ask Endplate, the Fia found illegal traction/Launch control on the car. The team said it was de activated--- ye right ok, so if it was deactivated explain Mikeys awesome launch past Hill at Silverstone 94, and he couldnt stop the car from overtaking poleman Hill - He was banned for that manoevre, but the truth is the Launch control couldnt be 'deactivated' and Schumi had no hope or way to stop the launch. Does anyone remember this. Or find the thread I had with Endplate over it.
He had a bent car, and it was Senna who led the fIa to it.

If you say so, as I said I don't know too much about it just what I googled. I guess it would justify the FIA's other decisions - if they believed Benetton were using launch control but couldn't prove it, they could at least be as harsh as possible on every other little rule. But the point was, if it's true doesn't it say a lot more about Flavio and the team than it does about the guy in the driver's seat?

Kersh

Well, see mikey knew it was there, and used it... he knew it was illegal.

here... have a look.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054891835

steviec

And did Mika and DC know the brake system was illegal in 98? (honest question there because I don't know)

See in the case of something like this, especially when it was at a time that Schumacher didn't hold nearly as much sway as he does in his team now, I'd have said that the blame lies with the team, and particularly with who runs the team. A driver is paid to drive the car how he's told to drive the car. Even the engineers who design an illegal system were told to do it by their boss, they hardly sneak it in without saying anything.

thegoth

I my example of the soccer player, of course he would have been sent of in the same way Michael was put to the back of the grid, but the soccer player would not have to hear crap about it for the rest of his life. Thats my point.

donspeekinglesh

steviec wrote:

And did Mika and DC know the brake system was illegal in 98? (honest question there because I don't know)

there was nothing illegal about the braking system that McLaren, Jordan and Williams used until they were protested by Ferrari, Sauber, Minardi, Tyrrell, and Arrows.

The FIA had given the teams the okay to use the systems, and the stewards in Brazil reversed that decision.

While the FIA let Benetton away with the traction control issue, they did find them guilty of tampering with the fuel rig (actually Benetton admitted it) but didn't punish them at all.
The FIA spokesman back then, F. Longenasi, told the BBC in August that if Benetton were found to have removed the filter deliberately, they will face exclusion altogether from the World Championship. But according to George Carman QC (representing the team) Mosley offered a to help Benetton escape without punishment - plead guilty and ask for no punishment. And that's what happened. Max as judge, and juror, along with Bernie - another juror were able to lead the world council - the rest of the jury - to the desired result. By pleading guilty there were no witnesses called, and the case was simply Carmen and Mosley arguing for Benetton to be let off.

There's a lot more to the story - there was a long BusinessF1 article written by Christian Slyt about it, and it was mentioned in Carman's biography.

SouperComputer

hey did find them guilty of tampering with the fuel rig

Is this the '94 incident? I thought they got permission from Charlie Whiting?

dinjo

STEVIEC posted 2 comments on the first page of this thread talking about all of the incidents that has happened involving the 1 and only Michael Schumacher.

Im a schumi fan till i die, and i agree with everything steviec said with regards how much a driver is willing to bend the rules. it seems to me that an issue is made of an incident when ferrari or michael schumacher are involved. he listed mant incidents such as, senna and prost running each other off the road, coulthard letting hakkinen past in australia in 98, coulthard's "brake test" in spa. why dont people call coulthard a cheat ! ! !

i'll tell ya why! because is he is not winning races!

when schumi and rubens tried to stage a dead heat in america everybody was giving out about it..... mainly Ron Dennis. he really couldn't care less about whether ferrari staged a draw or not, he was just looking for somewhere to vent his frustration on the fact that Ferrari and Michael schumacher had been whooping their ass's all season long.

People pick on schumacher because he is the best ! and they are jealous !

donspeekinglesh

SouperComputer wrote:

Is this the '94 incident? I thought they got permission from Charlie Whiting?

They said they did, but Charlie said he gave them nothing of the sort. Then they tried blaming an unnamed junior member of the team. Then they fabricated a safety report to say Verstappen's pit fire in Germany was not connected to the missing filter.

DC did not brake test MSC - he did however ease off on the throttle. He has since apologised for it.

SouperComputer

They said they did, but Charlie said he gave them nothing of the sort. Then they tried blaming an unnamed junior member of the team. Then they fabricated a safety report to say Verstappen's pit fire in Germany was not connected to the missing filter.

Very naughty, but unsurprising I guess.

J.R.HARTLEY

the only real pity with schumacher is that he never managed to show up hill for the total lack of talent that he was, F1 has been dead since hakkinen left, he was the last dying challenge to racing, i love the "real racing fans" (blow ins) who come on to talk about cheating and lads bumping into each other ignorant that 20 years ago lads would run each other of the road rather than race another lap against each other, senna and prost are two prime examples. of that, F1 died when ayrton senna did, it lost its pasion and no amount of ITV lies can cover the fact that its as dull as **** thesed days